Tarasova is a destructive influence on American skaters

[krenseby]

This is a too heavy accusation to lay on TT. You have a great imagination, but It is a twisted idea and totally wrong.

Well I had a hunch that Johnny's pursuit of elegant skating and his enthusiasm for Tarasova's ideals had a a negative impact on his skating, at least the tech side of it, but I didn't know why.

I think Ptchika really lasered in on what the problem is. Executing a program that has both difficult jumps and full, completed choreographical moves that are elegant and emotionally sensitive to the music takes tons of discipline and practice.

Johnny didn't back up his love of choreography with tons of focused practice on his jumps, spins, etc.. etc... I remember reading that he didn't like Tarasova forcing him to repeat his footwork sequences (either straight line or circulance) so much that he got sick of them. I think Tarasova succeeds with skaters whom she can force to practice their elements for an incredibly long time. These skaters then manage to skate programs with complicated choreography and elements because they've gotten used to them due to extensive practice.Both Sasha and Johnny however were overburdened by difficult/beautiful choreography to the point where it effected their jumps precisely because they didn't put in the torturous hours of practice required to execute both of these.

So, I think, I now what the "curse of Tarasova" really is. The beautiful skating that she proposes to skaters requires an enormous amount of grueling training. Those who refuse to put in the extra work to execute the combination of choreo + tech. elements become overburdened by their programs and incapable of skating them without screwing up majorly.

A major thanks to Ptichka for helping me figure this out.

In retrospect, Mao working with Tarasova should work out well because Mao has the discipline to assimilate all the new moves that Tarasova may teach her.

 

[JPierce]

This is one of the most retarded threads I've ever read, and that's saying a lot.

I could even give evidence, but it would be a spoiler I think...

 

[bekalc]

While Americans haven't had that much success with Russian coaches it seems.. I don't think all Americans would have issues with Tarasova... Sasha Cohen and Johnny Weir, well they are hardly the American skaters with the best work ethic.

I think someone like Kimmie Meissner who is known for being a hard worker, would probably do fairly well with Tarasova. So would Lyseck... I think that part of the problem with Tarasova was that it wasn't just Sasha who was questioning the coach, Sasha's mother was. In contrast, I remember reading an article where Meissner's parents (I believe it was Meissners) said they don't know much about figure skating and so they leave the coaching to Pam Gregory who is a great coach.. If your parents are telling you listen to your coach and aren't undermining the coach's authority. I suspect that the skater will learn to listen to the coach.

I don't like using two American skaters (who aren't known for their work ethic) and then saying that American would never do well with someone like Tarasova. But I do think culturally, it probably is easier for Tarasova to work with Asian skaters because there is the whole concept of treating your coachs/ teachers with honor there. Where in America, not so much.

 

[jennylovskt]

Well I had a hunch that Johnny's pursuit of elegant skating and his enthusiasm for Tarasova's ideals had a a negative impact on his skating, at least the tech side of it, but I didn't know why.

I think Ptchika really lasered in on what the problem is. Executing a program that has both difficult jumps and full, completed choreographical moves that are elegant and emotionally sensitive to the music takes tons of discipline and practice.

Johnny didn't back up his love of choreography with tons of focused practice on his jumps, spins, etc.. etc... I remember reading that he didn't like Tarasova forcing him to repeat his footwork sequences (either straight line or circulance) so much that he got sick of them. I think Tarasova succeeds with skaters whom she can force to practice their elements for an incredibly long time. These skaters then manage to skate programs with complicated choreography and elements because they've gotten used to them due to extensive practice.Both Sasha and Johnny however were overburdened by difficult/beautiful choreography to the point where it effected their jumps precisely because they didn't put in the torturous hours of practice required to execute both of these.

So, I think, I now what the "curse of Tarasova" really is. The beautiful skating that she proposes to skaters requires an enormous amount of grueling training. Those who refuse to put in the extra work to execute the combination of choreo + tech. elements become overburdened by their programs and incapable of skating them without screwing up majorly.

A major thanks to Ptichka for helping me figure this out.

In retrospect, Mao working with Tarasova should work out well because Mao has the discipline to assimilate all the new moves that Tarasova may teach her.

That's it. So the problem was not from Tarasova, it was her students who cannot fully follow her and listen to her and meet her highest standard. Tatiana Tarasova is THE greatest coach in figure skating. I worship her till the end.

Some people are just accustomed to find blames from other sources when the things go wrong. I firmly believe that if Johnny Weir worked as hard and disciplined himself last year as he does now, his last year's programs will be more successful than this year's. Instead, many blamed on Marina Anissina for her difficult choreography. In my opinion, Marina Anissina's choreographies for both of Johnny's programs last year were 10 times better than this year's programs. Had Johnny worked harder, the history might be written differently. Johnny Weir might be a great skater with the total ability of doing both more masculine and more lyrical programs. I doubt if the conclusion of Johnny can only do "his style" is right, but I have no way to prove it.

 

[decker]

That's it. So the problem was not from Tarasova, it was her students who cannot fully follow her and listen to her and meet her highest standard.

Thank you, Jenny! Johnny happens to be my favorite, but he made his own bed. He chose not to train properly last year and got exactly the bad results you would expect. This year he is working like a dog with equally predictable improved results. The comment in the OP that his career is "ruined" is baseless.

Destructive? Evil? I reserve that sort of vocabulary for people who have done real harm in the world ... abusers, molesters, genocidal maniacs. Not skating coaches with exacting standards.

Susan

 

[discoduck]

Oh for Pete's sake! I've heard everything now. Maybe the problem that both Sasha and Johnny had was within themselves, not anything TT did or didn't do.

 

[Tinymavy15]

What are you smoking?
She is a great coach. Sasha never has had consistant jump to begine with, with or without TT. Not to mention TT has helped Sasha improveing her edge quality. Johnny is Johnny he has had beautyful triple jumps before going TT, and still has them with TT. The one hurt him was the lacking or can't consistant landing them in competetion and when you can't do it consistant but put into your program there got to be a lot pressure. You might say pressure or mental toughness was what did Johnny in. As for Mao, she has had jump problem even before she went to TT, due to growing spurt and her jump technique to begine with....TT is no jump coach, nor psychist, you can't fault her for this.....for all I see TT dose help bring out Sasha and Mao's 'beauty' of skating.

i agree with you. funny, but Alexi Yagundin, one of the best jumpers around worked with Tatiana for a long time. So did Shizuka.

I think that Tataian brings out the best in her skaters. The time sasha spent with Tatiana she skated the best programs, her foorwork improved miles, all all the finsihing touches were added. Why she did not stay there is not my buisness, but personally I think that Sasaha would have won the OGM or at least a world title if she had stayed.

 

[jennylovskt]

but personally I think that Sasaha would have won the OGM or at least a world title if she had stayed.

That's what I thought. We've had a whole thread to discuss that last season.

 

[Ptichka]

That doesn't mean that I think Tarasova laid a finger on any of her athletes. I think her wrath and disapproval would be enough.

I've only read of TT slapping her student once, and that was a very long time ago (in the 70's). Here is a quote from Bestemianova (from the movie on TT):
"This was at the very start of our career. She slapped me because I was scared, and nervous… I was always afraid, I always thought that Andrei was such an amazing partner, and that I was going to be replaced, so after I had trouble at a practice session, I became totally hysterical, and she just brought me out of my hysteria, it was the correct psychological approach."

In general, I think she chooses emotional skaters who respond to her approval and disapproval a lot. Let's remember, too, that she is also the great motivator. I remember Johnny saying that when he just started training with TT there was a practice when everybody else seemed to be doing so well, and it just wasn't working out for him. He recalls TT telling him how great he was, and how she should never forget it. Johnny says it gave him the incentive to put his all into that practice session even if things weren't working it too well. So it works both ways - she is good at using both the carrot and the stick (not literally) in pushing her students to do what she believes is needed.

 

[debdelilah]

Oh I agree, TAT might have ruined a lot for Johnny. Thanks goodness, his jumps/ medals are back, he's so much better off without her. There was yet another evil woman in Johnny's life who's name starts with a P.

I, too, now see how unhealthy his obsession with so called "beautiful skating"
was. Beautiful shmootiful. Swan? Otonal? Rondo? Disposable crap. Love is war? That's what he needs.

Are you serious? Johnny not practing during practice sessions did him in more than any "evil woman", I think, and certainly he gets credit for "beautiful skating"--otherwise he wouldn't have been earning GP medals last season when his TES were at the very bottom of the pack. Really, are you being sarcastic?

 

[Hsuhs]

Really, are you being sarcastic?

Yes. How did you figure it out?

In a recent article Vaitsekhovskaya quotes Johnny who says he'd love to stay in Moscow and have
Tarasova as his coach, if only he could afford it. But, he says, he can't.

Priscilla Hill is a coach who's taught Johnny that textbook 3A, among many, many other things. If it weren't for her, there might not even be Johnny Weir the US Champ. But, unlike Tarasova, she's been there with him every day, for 10 years. If someone wants to blame a coach, why not blame her?

I'm not sure what Marina Anissina's contribution was, but she must have done something good too. Like she's helped Johnny through tough times.

Zmievskaya's influence is obvious. She's helping Johnny to reach his goals. And I believe his goal for the season is to win, and he's been doing exactly that.

Until the CoP system is better balanced, though, I rather my favorite skaters make their programs more CoP-ish. Which means focusing on their jump content. If they win, then at least we can see their artistry in the exhibitions.

I agree with this, although I rarely watch exhibitions, they're pretty boring for the most part, and gold medal winners skate last. What I disagree with is to call something that isn't art, art.

 

[ChrisH]

Executing a program that has both difficult jumps and full, completed choreographical moves that are elegant and emotionally sensitive to the music takes tons of discipline and practice.

I think Tarasova succeeds with skaters whom she can force to practice their elements for an incredibly long time. These skaters then manage to skate programs with complicated choreography and elements because they've gotten used to them due to extensive practice.Both Sasha and Johnny however were overburdened by difficult/beautiful choreography to the point where it effected their jumps precisely because they didn't put in the torturous hours of practice required to execute both of these.

So, I think, I now what the "curse of Tarasova" really is. The beautiful skating that she proposes to skaters requires an enormous amount of grueling training. Those who refuse to put in the extra work to execute the combination of choreo + tech. elements become overburdened by their programs and incapable of skating them without screwing up majorly.

Doesn't the execution of these choreo elements require competition time and energy, not just training time and energy? The programs have time limits. It could be that Sasha and Johnny, even if they were in peak competition shape, didn't have a high enough stamina that a Tarasova program required.

In retrospect, Mao working with Tarasova should work out well because Mao has the discipline to assimilate all the new moves that Tarasova may teach her.

It appears that Mao has a high level of stamina too.

 

[Vodka Shot]

Didn't Sasha say that she left TT because of distance problams as well as TT having health issues at the time? Is there any way that could have maybe been the truth and that it maybe didn't actually have anything to do with any kind of disagreements or training issues?

 

[Mathman]

Didn't Sasha say that she left TT because of distance problams as well as TT having health issues at the time? Is there any way that could have maybe been the truth and that it maybe didn't actually have anything to do with any kind of disagreements or training issues?

Possibly. But it was no secret that TAT was pretty displeased with Sasha when Sasha went against TAT's advice (instructions?) and skated in a cheesefest when Sasha was sick, instead of resting and training for U.S. Nationals and Worlds.

 

[Tonichelle]

I still think Sasha's done her best with Nicks... Tatiana and Robin [Wagner] were eye openers for her...

Mr. Nicks rules all

 

[mzheng]

Now that makes sense. I remember when I was playing volleyball in Jr high school in Japan, I got ***** slapped if I hit the ball out or missed digging opponents spikes druing games in front of all other students and parents watching us. My coach kicked me once in the stomach during the practice when I messed up setting up a ball for one of our spikers. I thought that was normal back then... Is that how Tarasova coach skaters??

Yeah, I heard that's the way Japanese training their woman volleyball team. Actually at last 80s or sometime early. Chinese got Japanese coach over started trainning their volleball team. Which lead to finally build a world class women Volleyball team which had dominated 80s.

Mao should have no problem with TT's training style at all. For one she was brought up under Japanese culture. For two she has been trainned under another Russian coach Raphael, who was known very 'strict' (Yelling on his skaters all the time.) as well.

 

[Bennett]

Yeah, I heard that's the way Japanese training their woman volleyball team. Actually at last 80s or sometime early. Chinese got Japanese coach over started trainning their volleball team. Which lead to finally build a world class women Volleyball team which had dominated 80s.

Mao should have no problem with TT's training style at all. For one she was brought up under Japanese culture. For two she has been trainned under another Russian coach Raphael, who was known very 'strict' (Yelling on his skaters all the time.) as well.

Is Raphael Russian? Does he speak Russian with TT?

 

[blue dog]

Is Raphael Russian? Does he speak Russian with TT?

Arutunian is Armenian, but he grew up during the Soviet days, so he speaks Russian.

As to coaches, nothing beats Jutta Mueller. I read Katarina Witt's book--she said her and Jutta Mueller were friends, but Jutta was very mean to her when she'd mess up a jump, or eat chocolate (which Jutta forbade her to eat).

It reminds me of Fu Mingxia, the Chinese diver, who won multiple golds. When she was a young girl, she was having trouble doing the pike position:

http://www.usadiving.org/05redesign/main/picture_of_the_week/BrittanyViola4.jpg

And to get her to straighten her legs, they had her put her feet on one chair, and she sat on another, and a "massive" woman would sit on her knees until she got the straight-leg position.

I think Tat is tough, but she isn't any tougher than most tough coaches we've had in the US, like Callaghan, or Frank Carroll. Those coaches are tough, too. I think that's why Sasha only worked well with Nicks, because Nicks let her take control--too much control.

 

[Tonichelle]

I dunno, I think Nicks just allowed it because he wasn't getting anywhere...

but at the same time when she went back to him after touring the country for a different coach she really seemed to have a change of pace at least for a bit...

anything had to be better than Wagner's smothering (I really felt for Sasha through those weeks lol)

 

[Jaana]

While I thought that TT created beautiful choreography for Sasha Cohen, I never could understand why she chose TT as her coach as well. If anything Cohen would have needed a great jumping coach, artistry and beauty on the ice she already had in abundance.

For Weir TT created programmes that were really beatiful to watch, but whether they were good programmes for the CoP-system, that is another matter.