The Current Depth of Skating by Nation

[Skater Boy]

What is the current depth of skating by nations? Going by discipline how strong are each country?

USA

Pairs

THey are decent but right now they need one team to break out and they might do it with S and K. With the Canadians rebuilding and Russia down to their fourth place team so to speak in relationshp to last year and the Germans retired/out the door is open. However, they will duke it out probably with the new second and third Russians and Canadians as well as the French and Italian to fill the latter half of ht etop ten.

Men

They look strong and could even medal at the same time so vulnerable. The heir apprent is a great skater with no quad in Brown. Rippon, Farris and Aaron all have great strength but need to come through under pressure like a lot of nations any of the three could podium and any of the thee but perhaps Jason who seems very well loved by the judges could even out of the top 15.

Dance

They have a lot of strength here with Chock and Bates and the Shibutani's both potential world medallists. THe third time is really up for grabs but there are several teams ready to all be in the top ten.

Ladies

It is a theme. I highly suspect Ashley probably or maybe Gracie will win a world medal. Both are capable. Polina also could do well - top 4 even. However, all three have the potential to be in the latter part of the top ten with Edmunds as low as say 14th. With some luck all thee are in the top 5 or 6.. With some "bad" luck they lose three places for next world's. All it would take is 3 Russians, two Japanese and Korpi or the Chinese skater to place ahead of struggling american ladies and USA is down to two. They have excelent skaters though to follow these three ladies with Mirai, Courtney et al waiting in the wings.

Overall USA is looking strong and the depths in the right disciplines men and women give them a chance at the WTT.


Russia has been devastated this year by injuries, retirements, and intrigue (splits or whatever). It is amazing they are still relatively competitive.


Pairs with the absence of V and T and S and K as well as Antipova's illness Russia is left with the aging and returning K and S and T and M and a new team. For most this would be complete desperation that you have lost your top three pairs team and left with a healing and aging repaired team but Russia still is competitive.

Men - Russia has struggled without a real leader like Plushenko. They have two decent skater who could pull off a meal or struggle to be in the top ten. Voronov is gaining some consistnecy and Kovtun has some skill / technical) These are skaters who could medal or ...be out of the top ten (a theme in the current genre of skating)

Dance - Devastation here as Russi is down its top 3 or 4 skating teams (I believe unless B and S re emerge but even then they will not be very refined or practised) It appears I and Z or S and B are left fighitng to hold on to 3 spots for russia. I and Z have more talent probably but have not had time to really cement the relationship. They have not even skated together a full year. Lots of potenital with several ice dance team but many are new partnerships and will take time

Ladies again amazing. They lose Julia and Adelina and they still put up three excellent candidates for a world medal (or medals). ADmittedly the depth goes beyond these five ladies but most if not all have not survived puberty other than Alena Leonova who sits way down the Russian list and she is the former world silver medallist. THis says a lot. Still this depth is not as strong as some might think because of the extreme youthfulness and uncertainty with puberty.


Canada post olympics has not been good. In every discipline other than pairs where D and R have emerged much stronger contenders although their second and third pairs team have fallen down the ladder to the point both teams could be behind both american teams. Canada is definitely weaker.

Pairs - D and R really are technically getting it together. Sadly with break ups and such they don't have the strength of a no. 2 team that is like no. 4 in the world. THey have three developing teams with potential although I think many would find MTM II not a great match or hope. They need Duhamel and Radford to medal and really try to aim at least beating one of the American teams (both Canadian teams). One of them really needs to take the pressure of D and R to win by placing in the top ten which isn't easy 3 Chinese teams and probably a Russian team and D and R have the top 5 spots. Then you have 2 Americans, 2 Russians, 2 Canadians, France and Italy battling for the last half of the top ten.

Those are my review of three nations so far for the depth level by nation.

 

[Mrs. P]

Quick opinion on depth of field:

Men: Japan > Russia=USA>Canada
Ladies: Russia>Japan=USA
Pairs: Russia=China >Canada>USA
Dance: USA>Canada>Russia

 

[MalAssada]

Agree with Mrs. P. Just wanted to add that there are two very talented Japanese ladies coming up in Juniors next season (Yuna Aoki and Marin Honda). Ellegible for 2018. I think that if we analize Juniors, Japan has more talent than USA.

And about Russian ladies, we will have to wait to see. Some will most likely retire after puberty, but others have solid technique and are able to skate for longer. And even if most don't, they have numbers. I don't think Russian ladies are going to struggle so soon.

 

[Mentalopes]

I'd say:

Men: Japan > USA > Russia = China > Canada
Ladies: Russia > USA > Japan > Canada = China
Pairs: China = Russia = Canada >> USA
Ice Dance: Canada > USA > Russia

Pairs are really tight. But I think China should be first because they have very decent 3 teams capable of medal at words. Russia without their top teams is damaged but their level still high and Canada has a very good technical pair and some decent pairs that are still growing.
USA has a lot to catch up to those three.

I think Japan is losing a lit bit the control in men. We don't know yet if Hanyu is going to worlds for sure, and Mura and Kozuka are not so reliable. But i gotta say that I like Shoma and Dice, and I expect them to be number 2 and 3 of Japan next year.

 

[sc8]

Hmmmm....I like this topic.
Men: Japan>Russia>USA>Canada
As much as I'd like to put US ahead of Russia, they're top two have had better international success and are higher ranked.
Pairs: China=Russia>Canada>USA
China and Russia are the perennial powers now and I don't see that changing. Canada is always in the mix, but lacks the depth of China and Russia. If US teams can stay together through juniors and seniors, we will make up ground. But, the way our pairs play musical chairs is unfortunate. Perhaps Denney and Frasier can translate their world junior title sooner rather than later?
Ladies: Russia>US>Japan>Canada
Russia has talent and depth. Tukt should be through puberty concerns as should Sotnikova and likely Pogo. Plus Julia, Alena, and several powerful juniors. With this many among the elite, odds are they continue to dominate this cycle. US had all three in top 10 at Olympics and Worlds return this season, which is needed to allow some of our promising younger skaters (Chen, Bell) time to develop. I'm not as impressed with the new crop of Japanese skaters, sadly. Hongo has powerful jumps, but Miyahara's are really tiny and unclean. Their junior skaters are also tiny, but very talented. It is uncertain whether any will get through development issues of puberty and come out stronger. Canada had its hopes with Osmond, but she can't seem to string it together or stay healthy. Others, like Daleman, have promise, but not quite as strong as the other countries.
Dance: US>Canada=Russia>China
This is probably the closest of the three for me. US and Canada have strong teams, but US has two in the elite few groups. Russia has talent and depth, but they're short on delivery, so I place them equal to Canada because they have a deeper bench. I'm surprised the Chinese haven't invested more in doing with Dance what they did with pairs. They dance teams I've seen from China, and that's not many, typically lack deep edges, deep knee bends, and other fundamental problems that suggest issues with basic skill development.
That's more than I anticipated for my first golden skate post!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Welcome aboard sc8

Great first post. I think mine was "when does Yulia skate"

 

[HanDomi]

Actually Japan mens lost some depth after MAchida retirement, and now the main force left is Hanyu. But there is still Mura who can pull off nice result. There is Dice that started from time to time do good. Kozuka.....well.....
And Shoma is coming from juniors

I would still put US men ahead of Russian men or tied

 

[Mrs. P]

Actually Japan mens lost some depth after MAchida retirement, and now the main force left is Hanyu. But there is still Mura who can pull off nice result. There is Dice that started from time to time do good. Kozuka.....well.....
And Shoma is coming from juniors

I would still put US men ahead of Russian men or tied

Yep, agree RE: Japan. The fact that 4 of their skaters are in the top 10 SB list speaks volumes to me

For now, Russia men have the edge to me because 1.) They had a man on the GPF podium. 2.) They had a man who won two GP events. But for depth, looking at SB list.

USA: 5 (Farris), 12 (Brown), 14 (Aaron), 16 (Dornbush) 19. (Carriere) 21 (Abbott)
RUS: 10 (Voronov), 11 (Kovtun), 17. (Menshov) 20. (Petrov) 27 (Pitkeev)

USA wins as far as collective depth there. Hence my decision to give a tie.

 

[karne]

The US men are definitely ahead of the Russian men. When you're leaving skaters of the quality of Aaron and Abbott at home, you must be doing well. And just look at that Nationals. I mean, there were lots of people who tried to predict how that would come out and all threw their hands in the air and went, too hard!

Theirs is so deep that the second and third ranked US men after the GP - Aaron and Dornbush - had their seasons ended at Nationals. That Aaron was left at home, again, because Nationals produced so many great skates and he was the one who lost the fight.

Whereas with the Russian men, well, for starters, it's all political; Kovtun is the anointed one, and Voronov and Menshov are considered the annoying old man interlopers trying to mess with the RuFed's plans, while Gachinski is yet to be forgiven for the Nice disaster. And beyond that, there's presently not that much.

 

[Sandpiper]

Men: Japan > Russia = USA > China > Canada

Russian men have done better over the GP circuit, but since Nationals/Europeans/4CC, the US seems on an upswing while Russia is standing still or backsliding. I give the nod to China over Canada due to China having one skater who can challenge for the Top 5 in seniors (Han Yan) and one potential medallist in juniors (Boyang Jin). Nam is solid but not yet podium material, and everyone else in Canada...

Ladies: Russia > USA > Japan > Canada > China

USA>Japan seems quite intuitive to me. Better over the GP series (two people made it to GPF, one came back with a medal, while the other's WD was the only reason Japan even had someone at GPF), and even with their #1 not there and their #2 having a meltdown, USA still managed to get their #3/#4 on the top step at 4CC. Canada>China is a closer thing, since at 4CC Zijun turned around her lower placements (compared to Alaine and Gabby) on the GP circuit. But China doesn't have any #2 of note, so Canada has the edge there.

None of the Russians are past puberty except Alena? Liza, Anna, and Adelina, anyone? And even if they aren't... puberty isn't a Russian phenomenon. The same thing can be said about all the "promising" Japanese juniors.

Pairs: Canada = China > Russia >> USA >> Japan

It depends on what you value. Gold? Canada. All pairs capable of medals/making GPF/challenging for the top? China. If S/K were going to Worlds, I'd put Russia up there as well.

Ice Dance: Canada > USA > Russia >> China > Japan

I give Canada the nod over USA because while G/P aren't the Shibutanis, they are still a formidable #2 and can beat the Shibs in a segment if the Shibs have a very off day. Whereas for Canada-China in pairs, a Canadian pair not named D/R beating any Top 5 Chinese pair would be incredibly strange.

Funny how the OP says Canada is struggling post-Olympics, when Canada is in all likelihood going to come back with two gold medals from Worlds. A pretty rare feat for any country that's not Russia.

 

[Skater Boy]

Ladies I think Russia would be first right now followed by the US and Japan in third. I think the Americans could beat the Russians as they have arguably age/experience but the RUssians are better jumpers and more consistent. The Americans seem to have puberty on their side but the Russians have pure numbers of talent - obviously as they lose Julia and Adelina arguably no. 1 and 2 in the world along with Mao and Russia still has two top challengers if not three. Japan would be my third pick but they are a bit lucky cause they are quite vulnerable.. They are l ucky Korpi is coming back and Osmond is injured and to be blunt France and Sweden and the Georgian lady really haven't been able to get it together.

Pairs - China is obviously no. 1 they could sweep the medal but for D and R who on a bad day might have trouble holding on to bronze.Second is toss up between Canada and Russia then the USA. Russia is hanging on despite really gettng no. 4, 5 and 6 to represent them considering their entire world's team are gone from last year - decimated. And their top hope is the much injured comeback senior citizens.

Dance: USA wins this with two possible medallists Shibs and Chock and Bates and a very strong third team. They could be challenged by Canada and then it is a toss up the Italians or the Russians who despite being decimated by injuries, splits and whatever are a team with huge potential buttime is not on their side as they probably need more time to mature and develop. Relying on essentially a new senior team and a new team isn't overly reassuring.

Men -Japan is the class of the field and the US has a lot of potential too for second. Russia could bump the US as they have a good mix of experience and potential and are more consistent than the Americans.

 

[LRK]

Men: Japan > Russia = USA > China > Canada

Russian men have done better over the GP circuit, but since Nationals/Europeans/4CC, the US seems on an upswing while Russia is standing still or backsliding. I give the nod to China over Canada due to China having one skater who can challenge for the Top 5 in seniors (Han Yan) and one potential medallist in juniors (Boyang Jin). Nam is solid but not yet podium material, and everyone else in Canada...

Ladies: Russia > USA > Japan > Canada > China

USA>Japan seems quite intuitive to me. Better over the GP series (two people made it to GPF, one came back with a medal, while the other's WD was the only reason Japan even had someone at GPF), and even with their #1 not there and their #2 having a meltdown, USA still managed to get their #3/#4 on the top step at 4CC. Canada>China is a closer thing, since at 4CC Zijun turned around her lower placements (compared to Alaine and Gabby) on the GP circuit. But China doesn't have any #2 of note, so Canada has the edge there.

None of the Russians are past puberty except Alena? Liza, Anna, and Adelina, anyone? And even if they aren't... puberty isn't a Russian phenomenon. The same thing can be said about all the "promising" Japanese juniors.

Pairs: Canada = China > Russia >> USA >> Japan

It depends on what you value. Gold? Canada. All pairs capable of medals/making GPF/challenging for the top? China. If S/K were going to Worlds, I'd put Russia up there as well.

Ice Dance: Canada > USA > Russia >> China > Japan

I give Canada the nod over USA because while G/P aren't the Shibutanis, they are still a formidable #2 and can beat the Shibs in a segment if the Shibs have a very off day. Whereas for Canada-China in pairs, a Canadian pair not named D/R beating any Top 5 Chinese pair would be incredibly strange.

Funny how the OP says Canada is struggling post-Olympics, when Canada is in all likelihood going to come back with two gold medals from Worlds. A pretty rare feat for any country that's not Russia.

But how does having one gold-candidate pair give Canada more depth in pairs?

 

[Skater Boy]

Well if we look at depth from the WTT rules we probably would have another interpretation. Teams with two strong men or women would have the depth to win which means Canada would have trouble with men's and women and depending on how the second pairs team did maybe pairs. I am not sure who would be the team with overall depth USA is my first thought for no. 1 as their weakest link is pair. - maybe Russia would challenge as they have two strong ladies and two strong men and amazingly can still compete in pairs and dance. Those two teams are the strongest overall. Everyone else has major major achilles heals. Japan is weak in dance and pairs. Canada actually is very weak in men's and women which counts for a lot. China is not bad in men's and women but remember they need two singles skaters to be competitive. China lacks clearly in dance and back up singles skater. France is rather blah. Ditto for Britain, Germany.

 

[karne]

Yes, but you don't use the WTT as a measure because that competition was set up especially to make sure that Japan was not at a disadvantage. The only reason there are two men and two ladies on each team at WTT is because they're so weak at dance and pairs!

 

[Sandpiper]

But how does having one gold-candidate pair give Canada more depth in pairs?

Hmm. Maybe you're right. If M-T/M hadn't split up...

But at the end of the day, it's gold/top finisher that matters to most people. And Canada is favoured to win gold while China, nothing more than bronze (though I wouldn't be surprised if two Chinese pairs were on the podium).

 

[Violet Bliss]

But how does having one gold-candidate pair give Canada more depth in pairs?

Maybe not depth, but height, just as Chan, Ten, and Fernandez each gives their respective nations height in Men's that US and Russia don't have despite all their depths. OTOH, Japan has both height and depth in Men's while Russia does in Ladies'.

 

[sc8]

Yeah, maybe y'all changed my mind on the men's ranking. I'll put US ahead of Russia. Farris and Brown were outstanding juniors, and have done well as emerging seniors, so they are starting to get the components they deserve as seniors. Farris' free skates at four continents and nationals, ah if he didn't add that invalid double-toe, were spectacular, so I think our leading men are well positioned. I'd love to see Adam get a great two skates at worlds. Hopefully we'll retain three spots.

 

[LRK]

Maybe not depth, but height, just as Chan, Ten, and Fernandez each gives their respective nations height in Men's that US and Russia don't have despite all their depths. OTOH, Japan has both height and depth in Men's while Russia does in Ladies'.

That's a very good way of looking at it.:yes:

 

[TontoK]

A lot of discussion on Russian ladies and puberty.

A quick look at the Season's Best list... 7 of 10 top scoring women this season are Russian. Somebody... SOMEBODY... has to survive puberty. LOL

If we're speaking overall depth of team for pairs, I'd go with China. If I were leading Russian federation, and seeing the direction of pairs skating, I'd pick one of those young talented Russian ladies who already has good jumps and steer her towards pairs.

Dance... Sure, USA has the deepest team, but won't win a World Title again until H/B hit their peak, IMO. Russia, while having some tough times, will be back.

Men... the most unpredictable. Who knows. It depends on the day more than any other discipline.

 

[dorispulaski]

For that matter, both Liza & Anna seem to have survived puberty already. And Leonova is very good, and she's long through puberty. That's before we consider the youngsters who may or may not have any problems ever. And there is a group the size of a synchro team of up and coming youngsters if the current stars should have any difficulties.

Russia's depth is amazing in ladies!