The Future of the Russian Skater

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Let´s not forget the Olympic champions Urmanov and Kulik from the list... In my opinion with four Russian Olympic gold medals and a mass of World medals, Russian skaters that don´t manage to rise on the podium in those competitions, can be seen as failures. The standard those four skaters left, is really high.

That's the point of the topic of this thread. The Soviets created an atmosphere of the need to be first in all ways of life. This was strong politics, and it was made indelible in the minds of the Russian people. When the system ended, it did not end for those remaining in figure skating. The coaches came to America for a more accommodating skating atmosphere. As Ptichka pointed out the heart and soul of developing the most promising figure skaters lay in the local rinks.

If Ptichka's theory is correct, then something should be done to improve the local rinks. If not, then Russian skaters join the rest of the world in struggling to enhance their skating abilities.

IMO, that may all be true, but the talent in Russia is also motivated by a big acceptance of the sport by the Russian people. I think only Canada has that kind of figure skating popularity in the West.

The talent is still there, what is needed is a plan of action to develop it.

Joe

 

[anything_for_skating]

Duh,you can say what you want, but the thing is that Rusians will dominate for sure

 

[Mathman]

Let´s not forget the Olympic champions Urmanov and Kulik from the list... In my opinion with four Russian Olympic gold medals and a mass of World medals, Russian skaters that don´t manage to rise on the podium in those competitions, can be seen as failures. The standard those four skaters left, is really high.

Although, I don't think we can really compare Kulik's and Urmanov's competitive record with Yagudin's and Plushenko's.

Yes, they each had one fine performance. But other than that, Ilia has one world silver medal (1996) and Urmanov one bronze (1993). That's it.

They did go on, especially Kulik, to do well in the pro ranks after retiring from competition. But I think we admire most those skaters, like Sonja Henie and Katarina Witt, who brought a high level of performance to many competitions over a long and distinguished career.

MM

 

[chuckm]

Duh,you can say what you want, but the thing is that Rusians will dominate for sure

Not in Ladies. Mao Asada decisively trounced Elena Sokolova at the GPF. Martinova and Gerboldt finished 10th and 12th at Junior Worlds and were beaten by Mao, Yu-Na Kim, Zukowski and Czisny. Kimmie Meissner and Emily Hughes beat Elena Sokolova at Torino, and Kimmie beat everyone at Worlds, where Gerboldt didn't make the FS and Martinova finished 19th. Without Slutskaya, the Russian ladies will dominate from now on---in Russia.

 

[slutskayafan21]

If Plushenko and Slutskaya do not return to amateur skating at any point I fully expect the Russians to win no medals in Vancouver. The only ones some seem to consider having a chance are Obertas/Slavnov and Domnina/Shabalin.
D/S I find very overrated and I see nothing in their skating that gives them a chance to compete against Belbin/Agosto, Moir/Virtue, and Mathews/Zazovin by Vancouver. Obertas/Slavnov, when they first came on the scene in 2004 I thought were a future contender, perhaps even by 2006, if not for sure starting after the 2006 Olympics. In 2005 they seemed to be going in the right direction. After their 2006 season I would be surprised if they ever win a World medal however, and they could even lose their standing in Russia if they get some more promising junior teams.

 

[krenseby]

Re:

Not in Ladies. Mao Asada decisively trounced Elena Sokolova at the GPF. Martinova and Gerboldt finished 10th and 12th at Junior Worlds and were beaten by Mao, Yu-Na Kim, Zukowski and Czisny. Kimmie Meissner and Emily Hughes beat Elena Sokolova at Torino, and Kimmie beat everyone at Worlds, where Gerboldt didn't make the FS and Martinova finished 19th. Without Slutskaya, the Russian ladies will dominate from now on---in Russia.

You forgot to one mention one interesting statistics. US's highest performing skater at this year's Olympics lost the Worlds long program to Sokolova. Otherwise, the Russian ladies don't right now hold out any promises of domination, unless Sokolova manages to find the consistency that she's never had or Volchokova/Soldatova return and improve significantly. But then again, remember that Russia has no history of dominance in ladies skating. Until Butyrskaya and Slutskaya emerged in the late 90s, the Soviet and post-Soviet Russian skaters didn't have much success. Midori Ito, Surya Bonaly, Lu Chen, Jill Trenary, Kristi Yamaguchi, Tonya Harding, and Yuka Sato dominated the Worlds scene. None of them were Russian or Soviet.

 

[Jaana]

Although, I don't think we can really compare Kulik's and Urmanov's competitive record with Yagudin's and Plushenko's.

Yes, they each had one fine performance. But other than that, Ilia has one world silver medal (1996) and Urmanov one bronze (1993). That's it.

They did go on, especially Kulik, to do well in the pro ranks after retiring from competition. But I think we admire most those skaters, like Sonja Henie and Katarina Witt, who brought a high level of performance to many competitions over a long and distinguished career. MM

I was not comparing the careers, just pointing out that as Olympic champions Urmanov and Kulik should not be forgotten from the list of successful Russian skaters. Besides, Ilia did not have just one fine performance (a winning or a medalling one) during his career. He also won silver in Worlds, gold and bronze at Europeans and as junior skater Junior World gold and bronze. Also he was a two rime Russian National champion in both juniors and seniors. He also won senior Grand Prix final.

Although winning a competition several times is admirable, I don´t think that longevity in eligible skating is something so admirable, because the skaters that remain for longer than one Olympiade, are skaters that did not win the Olympic gold medal in the first try (or otherwise did not place in the way they hoped). There are only very few exceptions among Olympic gold medalists: Urmanov (I suppose that he was not offered lucrative pro contracts?) and Witt, whose federation did not allow her to turn pro after her fist gold medal. Maybe Plushenko will stay for one more Olympics, but that remains to be seen.

 

[R.D.]

In present day, I don´t think that a longevity in eligible skating is something so admirable, because the skaters that remain for longer than one Olympiade, are skaters that did not win the Olympic gold medal in the first try (or otherwise did not place in the way they hoped).

To be fair, once one wins the OGM it seems to be tough to stay motivated in the long haul. Face it, most if not all of these athletes dream of winning the OGM when they skate. Doesn't matter if they don't stand a chance at all...they can still dream. Sure, they may love the joy of being out there. But who doesn't like to win?

If one looks only at the ladies division I say the Russians might be fine. They will for sure lose their dominance that they had with Slutskaya and Butyrskaya. But what about Sokolova? Unless she's quitting right now I wouldn't count her out. Outside of her, though, it might take some time for another generation of contenders to come up. JMO

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yeah. Sokolova did indeed beat Sasha in the LP in Calgary. She's got the 3x3s.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Yeah. Sokolova did indeed beat Sasha in the LP in Calgary. She's got the 3x3s.

Joe

I'm having trouble remembering sokolova's Calgary performances but i don't think she landed any 3/3s there - was she doing them earlier in the season because i don't think i've seen a 3/3 from Sokolova for a little while.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I'm having trouble remembering sokolova's Calgary performances but i don't think she landed any 3/3s there - was she doing them earlier in the season because i don't think i've seen a 3/3 from Sokolova for a little while.

Ant

Replying to my own post because i just remembered - she didn't have any in her LP but i think she landed a great 3sal/3toe in the warm up and i wondered why she didn't put it in the program since it would have been safe from a Zayak rule perspective and would have given her the full 7 triples too.

Ant

 

[chuckm]

You forgot to one mention one interesting statistics. US's highest performing skater at this year's Olympics lost the Worlds long program to Sokolova. Otherwise, the Russian ladies don't right now hold out any promises of domination, unless Sokolova manages to find the consistency that she's never had or Volchokova/Soldatova return and improve significantly. But then again, remember that Russia has no history of dominance in ladies skating. Until Butyrskaya and Slutskaya emerged in the late 90s, the Soviet and post-Soviet Russian skaters didn't have much success. Midori Ito, Surya Bonaly, Lu Chen, Jill Trenary, Kristi Yamaguchi, Tonya Harding, and Yuka Sato dominated the Worlds scene. None of them were Russian or Soviet.

Sasha Cohen landed 3 clean triples in her FS, so it's no wonder that Sokolova's score beat hers, but the fact is Elena's margin of 'victory' was a mere 2.2 point, because Elena's spins and spirals aren't on the same level as her jumps. And Elena had to settle for 4th place overall because she skated so poorly in the QR.

Elena is 26 (she's actually about 4 months older than Michelle Kwan) and although she has had glimmers this season of the 2002-2003 Elena, she is unlikely to dominate against Asada, Kim and Meissner. Unless she can regain some measure of consistency, she may find herself falling behind Nakano, Meier, Rochette and Hughes as well.

As for the men, Klimkin and Griazev finished 10th and 17th, respectively, at Worlds. Klimkin was 11th at Torino and 5th at Europeans, and Griazev had a disastrous performance at Russian Nationals. Neither man performed consistently this past season. Of the Juniors, Voronov did win the silver medal at Junior Worlds, while Alexander Uspenski, who has made 3 JGPFs in a row, was 8th. Voronov has never made it to the JGPF because he, too, tends to be inconsistent. Without Plushenko, the Russian men have no hope of dominating against Lambiel, Joubert, the North Americans and the Japanese.

Without TT/MM and the Pettikhs, the Russians can't hope to dominate Pairs. Obertas/Slavnov are in such disarray that they have left Moskvina for another coach. Mukhortova/Trankov have a ways to go before they are in medal contention.

Domnina/Shabalin are the Russian's best medal hope in dance, but there are rumors that Domnina may pair up with her boyfriend, Roman Kostomarov. I believe that would be a major mistake for her, because I think Max Shabalin is a better skater than Kostomarov.

 

[soogar]

Response to ChuckM (b/c I'm not copying the whole post)

I think this season has been Klimkin's strongest season ever in terms of landing jumps. He's not making anywhere near the amount of mistakes he has made (even in his Euro bronze medal winning season). I don't know what's going on that a small errors from Klimkin are putting him way behind a skater like Evan who made major errors in his SP and in the QR at Worlds. I imagine that Klimkin is quite frustrated b/c before his injury, he was considered medal contending material but for his mistakes. Even with big mistakes he was well within the top 10 at worlds and near or on the podium at Euros. His best competition this year was at Euros where he skated a clean LP and made just one mistake on the 3 axel in the SP (he got caught in a hole on the ice and did a waltz jump) and made 5th place. In his medal winning program at Euros he was falling all over the place and still placed 3rd over Drambier.

Now I will concede that Klimkin isn't the same brilliant skater he was before his injury in terms of choreography and spins; but I think there's something going on that a skater like Evan and even Jeff are placed way ahead of a reasonably clean Klimkin while having falls. In Klimkin's defense, I really don't think his placements this year say anything about the quality of his skating and performances.

As for the DomShabs: I felt this team was robbed in Torino. I don't care for Belbin and Agosto and having seen them in person; they are the lowest quality Olympic silver medalists I have ever seen in ice dance. DomShabs are beautiful skaters and I hope that they will rise in the ranks like N&K because they were among the better teams in Torino.

 

[krenseby]

re:

Sasha Cohen landed 3 clean triples in her FS, so it's no wonder that Sokolova's score beat hers, but the fact is Elena's margin of 'victory' was a mere 2.2 point, because Elena's spins and spirals aren't on the same level as her jumps. And Elena had to settle for 4th place overall because she skated so poorly in the QR.

Elena is 26 (she's actually about 4 months older than Michelle Kwan) and although she has had glimmers this season of the 2002-2003 Elena, she is unlikely to dominate against Asada, Kim and Meissner. Unless she can regain some measure of consistency, she may find herself falling behind Nakano, Meier, Rochette and Hughes as well.
.

Well, in all honesty, Sasha would probably too have trouble becoming competitive against Asada, Kid, and Meissner unless she becomes more consistent. A much more consistent performance from Elena with a QR round as good as the short and the long would have assured her a bronze and would have even give her a chance at silver in Calgary, though admittedly a small one. If Elena were more consistent, she could twear her COP levels on her elements and give herself additional competitive advantage against the other ladies. That said, Elena is very inconsistent, even more so than Sasha. Unless that changes, she won't ever make the podium again.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Klimkin had excellent GPs in the past. I think he won one in Japan. He also had a superb QR in Dortmund. Unfortunately, his injuries take their toll.

for me, Klimkin was the most expressive male skater I've seen from Russia. They all looked like 'cossack' style skaters but he was special. I'd like to see him continue with healthy body and win the upcoming competitions.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

Klimkin was a completely different skater with his original coach, who died just before Ilya had the injury that required surgery. With his new coach, Kudriatsev, he now looks like everyone else, his choreography is boring, and his costumes excruciating. And he has never been a consistent skater to begin with. He will be 26 in October, and with a whole year off due to surgery, he has totally lost whatever momentum he had back in 2004.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

True. Klimkin was never the same after his coach died, and his injury didn't help.

Joe

 

[soogar]

Klimkin was a completely different skater with his original coach, who died just before Ilya had the injury that required surgery. With his new coach, Kudriatsev, he now looks like everyone else, his choreography is boring, and his costumes excruciating. And he has never been a consistent skater to begin with. He will be 26 in October, and with a whole year off due to surgery, he has totally lost whatever momentum he had back in 2004.

It's unfortunate that Kundravtsev has sucked the originality out of Klimkin's skating. He's turning Klimkin into another Sokolova which is sad b/c Ilia was/is a considerably better all around skater than she ever was.

Though I am still hoping that the reason Klimkin's LP was stripped this year was to permit him to build up his performance and consistency with the jumps since he was coming back from injury.

I am wondering who choreographed Klimkin's LP? He's still working with Kalganova (the woman who choreographed for him while he was with Rusakov) but I read a while back that he went to Bulgaria to get programs from the guy who choreographs for Plush. I believe that SP was done by Kalganova because he was doing that program before his injury but that LP was probably done by that guy b/c it was as boring and stripped as all the stuff Plush has been doing. I did like his SP this year even though the Olympic and World costume was a nightmare.

Either way, I hope he finds the magic again. Maybe he just doesn't care anymore since his coach doesn't really seem to care about choreo. Just my thought.

 

[anything_for_skating]

Not in Ladies. Mao Asada decisively trounced Elena Sokolova at the GPF. Martinova and Gerboldt finished 10th and 12th at Junior Worlds and were beaten by Mao, Yu-Na Kim, Zukowski and Czisny. Kimmie Meissner and Emily Hughes beat Elena Sokolova at Torino, and Kimmie beat everyone at Worlds, where Gerboldt didn't make the FS and Martinova finished 19th. Without Slutskaya, the Russian ladies will dominate from now on---in Russia.

Don't judge so fast!

Look, for example, may I take someone not-Russian as an example: Albena Denkova,with her partner, finished 26th on Worlds 1993 - couldn't even make to the final. So, YOU would probably say that she can olny dream about good position. And who would say that one day she'll be world champion!

Anything can happen. I remember Arina 2 years ago- she was very different. Skaters are changing, I know from an experience. You can judge by results, but I don't think that they always say all.

I believe in Russian girls!

 

[Kasey]

Anything_for_skating,

I like your faith and belief. But in your own example, it took Albena Denkova THIRTEEN years to develop from 26th place to World Champion. How many singles skaters do you think can have that longevity, with the need for jumps and 3-3 combinations? Unless it's a skater who is currently 8 years old or so, and growing up with the CoP system and starting on the 3-3's early, I think it would be really hard for any of the current, or even junior, ladies skaters to last that kind of time at the elite level.