The Politics of Figure Skating

[euterpe]

But Irina shouldn't have had a 2.86 point lead going into the FS.
Irina won the SP despite two glaring errors.
She beat Cohen by 0.26 in the PCS and .21 in the TES.

It's going to be hard for any skater to beat Irina when she gets such high marks even when she makes flat-out mistakes.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Of course it wouldn't have been enough to catch the actual near-perfect LP that Slutskaya put down in Moscow, but even Cohen's slightly flawed performance would have been plenty to catch a more seriously flawed performance by Slutskaya (e.g., her Europeans LP).

If Cohen had beaten Slutskaya in the long in Moscow, she was easily within reach to beat her overall. However, if both have great LPs, it appears that Slutskaya would come out ahead there as well as overall.

That was the point that I was trying to make -- that if both were at there best in the LP, the title was out of reach after the SP. If Slutskaya had melted down like at Euros, the she could have been caught at Moscow, but not at CoC.

 

[mzheng]

It's going to be hard for any skater to beat Irina when she gets such high marks even when she makes flat-out mistakes.

I guess the quots (about Kwan) from her latest interview in Russian can be applied to herself now.

 

[gkelly]

But Irina shouldn't have had a 2.86 point lead going into the FS.
Irina won the SP despite two glaring errors.
She beat Cohen by 0.26 in the PCS and .21 in the TES.

Cohen also had errors: bobble on the spiral sequence comparably disruptive to Slutskaya's bobbles, touchdown on the 3flip landing (not as disruptive, but just as serious as Slutskaya's jump error), and also a time deduction.

 

[soogar]

I guess the quots (about Kwan) from her latest interview in Russian can be applied to herself now.

Well to be fair, it's interesting how the skating that Irina has been doing all along is being considerably rewarded under COP and Michelle is having a hard time adapting and has to upgrade her levels in her spins and transitions. Could it be that Irina has been skating difficult programs all along and not getting rewarded because her presentation isn't as smooth as Michelle's? I think she does have a point there.

Though I think Irina has been propped up by judges for mistakes more than Michelle. But if she's skating a more difficult program, maybe those errors in light of the program content aren't that severe.

 

[Doggygirl]

Well to be fair, it's interesting how the skating that Irina has been doing all along is being considerably rewarded under COP and Michelle is having a hard time adapting and has to upgrade her levels in her spins and transitions.

Irina has competed many times under COP, and MK has only competed once under COP. IMO, that suggests that Irina has a good idea of how the judges view her programs, while MK doesn't. ITA that MK is probably struggling to adapt her programs when she has little (World's only) international feedback. Very sad.

DG

 

[soogar]

Irina has competed many times under COP, and MK has only competed once under COP. IMO, that suggests that Irina has a good idea of how the judges view her programs, while MK doesn't. ITA that MK is probably struggling to adapt her programs when she has little (World's only) international feedback. Very sad.

DG

Irina isn't changing her skating significantly to adjust to COP. She herself said in the interview that MZheng is referencing that she has been skating programs with footwork on one foot and complicated spins since the beginning of her career but she never got credit from the judges.

 

[R.D.]

But Irina shouldn't have had a 2.86 point lead going into the FS.
Irina won the SP despite two glaring errors.
She beat Cohen by 0.26 in the PCS and .21 in the TES.

It's going to be hard for any skater to beat Irina when she gets such high marks even when she makes flat-out mistakes.

Cohen also made some very glaring errors in the SP (i.e. the spiral sequence), so I'm not so sure that I agree with your first point. If Cohen was clean, then this would be a valid argument (IMO). But I do agree with your second one.

But Irina convincingly won the FS, so in the end Cohen's time deduction, etc. didn't matter. Irina seems to be molded to the system, i.e. can milk it for all its worth (or the other way around, the system was made for her ).

Well to be fair, it's interesting how the skating that Irina has been doing all along is being considerably rewarded under COP and Michelle is having a hard time adapting and has to upgrade her levels in her spins and transitions.

Very interesting indeed. It's not a "veteran's problem" because Irina IIRC has been around as long as MK has. Why is it that Irina could "get with the program" so to speak, yet it's taken MK so long to even realize there's been a change? Even American rival Cohen has been able to adapt fairly well to the system; the only thing keeping her back is the ability to throw caution to the wind.

I don't know the answer; I'm just asking. Does it have to do with MK's ability? Maybe she doesn't have the inherent ability to do as well under this system, which seems to emphasize a much more technically demanding program more than emotional dramas? Her injury worries me because it makes me think that maybe she really can't keep up without hurting herself. Kind of a sad sight to see. Even worse if it ends up forcing her out.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Irina isn't changing her skating significantly to adjust to COP. She herself said in the interview that MZheng is referencing that she has been skating programs with footwork on one foot and complicated spins since the beginning of her career but she never got credit from the judges.

Since the beginning of her career, it never seemed to me that she could much more than jump high. She was, imo, quite sloppy in the early days, and she never came up to the presentations standards of Lipinsky, Cohen and Kwan. But, yes, she is a master technician with a lot of natural jumping ability, and now she has those crazy spirals - not arabesques.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Well to be fair, it's interesting how the skating that Irina has been doing all along is being considerably rewarded under COP...

Oh no, not another conspiracy theory! Are you saying that the people who designed the CoP specifically came up with ways to reward Irina's strengths and downplay Michelle's?

 

[bdreampixie]

I don't think there's anything that suggests that COP was designed with Irina in mind. Many people point to the Bielmann's being considered features for higher levels as the example of how COP is for Irina.
Spinning in different directions and Y-spins are both considered features for higher levels in spins. Michelle has done both in the past. I guess they must have had MK in mind too.

Michelle can be a very COP friendly skater. As much as people try to put down MK for her spins, she has in the past done some difficult spins and done them well. She just needs to plan her programs properly, that is why Irina has been so successful.

I think for the most part Irina's scores are right on. Her PCS are a bit inflated, but so are Sasha's, Jeff's, Evgeni's, etc. etc.

 

[Doggygirl]

Good for Irina!....

Irina isn't changing her skating significantly to adjust to COP. She herself said in the interview that MZheng is referencing that she has been skating programs with footwork on one foot and complicated spins since the beginning of her career but she never got credit from the judges.

....that she feels she is getting credit now for what she feels she's been doing all along.

DG

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Oh no, not another conspiracy theory! Are you saying that the people who designed the CoP specifically came up with ways to reward Irina's strengths and downplay Michelle's?

Mathman - You have conspiracy of the brain You're going to cause another flood of posts on conspiracies and not about Irina.

Joe

 

[Lee]

Mathman - You have conspiracy of the brain You're going to cause another flood of posts on conspiracies and not about Irina.

Joe

Can't be -- didn't you know that CoP is a Canuckistani konspiracy to reward those who can't jump? Just ask Buttle...

 

[Rgirl]

I think Tara did receive Kwanliness points for her eye-popping energy in the Olympic long program. I think that's what won it for her (along with her triple loop / triple loop).

I also think that's why it is not of much value endlessly to review tapes of events trying to nitpick who was robbed. The tapes don't capture the moment.

So would you say Kwanliness points could just as easily hurt Kwan if another skater out Kwans her as help Kwan? (Noting that it was my question if that was what you wanted, not your suggestion.) So, bad idea on my part. BTW, ITA that there's not much value in endlessly reviewing tapes to nitpick. GKelly's and I think Hockeyfan's posts about both Irina and Sasha making boo-boos in their World SPs make a great point.

MM, what do you or any other Kwanfans feel should be added to or subtracted from the COP tmake the things you love about Michelle part of what is judged and why?

I think it's about right as it is. When a skater reallybrings it, like Irina's short program at Cup of China, she gets straight and indiscriminately high marks across the board in program components.

I do not see any difference between this convention and that of giving a string of 5.9s in Presentation under ordinal judging. This is the judges' opportunity to thumb their noses at the CoP and simply say, you rock, girl!

Would it be fair to say then that perhaps what has Kwan fans down in the dumps (big generalization here) is not the COP itself, but rather the fact that, at least so far, Michelle hasn't benefitted from the change? That's pretty much what Red Dog says in Post #168, and ITA with him that if the COP causes Kwan further serious injury or prompts her to retire from competitive skating, it would be very sad indeed. OTOH, under the 6.0 system, a weak jumper such as Alissa Czisny--though doing better so far with the hinged boot--would not necessarily received the credit for her extraordinary spins and spiral sequence.

And with that I'll end this with the only absolute fact I know: Life is unfair.

Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

But, as has been said many times before, with now 3 random scores being thrown out, plus the high and low, how do you know if you're going to be colluding with anybody? All your colluders may have been thrown out in the random draw and high score.

This has indeed been said many times before. But IMHO what is not said often enough in response (although I am doing my best to keep up the ratio, LOL) is this: The randomness factor is equally likely to strengthen or to weaken the supposed conspirators' hand, vis-a-vis the rest of the panel.

Excellent point, MM, with which ITA. Thanks for the reminder.

Given that scenario, ie, no clear winner, do you think the "right" skater or team was more likely to be chosen using the OBO system (forgetting the interim system for argument's sake) or under the NJS as it stands now?

I'll be interested in GKelly's take on this question, too. But for what it's worth, here's what I think. I do not believe that there is such a thing as the "right" skater. In a judged sport, excepting dishonesty or incompetence on the part of the judges, the "right" skater is the one that captures the votes of the judges.

Ooooooh! Do I smell the faint vapors of "true score" in the air? Dang it. No. I just stepped in something.

Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

And when we see this subjectivity what conclusions should we make? We are powerless to change the scores so we have a choice of sucking up the results and continue to believe in the sanctity of the system or compain about them in a forum.

I have no idea that any such subjectivity would be taken up by the ISU.

But Joe, weren't things the same under the 6.0 system except that the judges were not anonymous? It seems to me that even when we knew who each judge was and which scores s/he gave, the fans still couldn't do anything about it.

In '94, for example, when everyone knew it was the German judge, Jan Hoffman, who made the deciding score giving Oksana the OGM and Nancy the silver, it was explained and debated endlessly in the press and I'm sure the ISU got a ton of angry letters (at least before Nancy dissed Mickey Mouse--just kidding), but it didn't change the medals.

Or perhaps (more like probably, given my brainlessness these days) I've misunderstood your point?

Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Rgirl - Indeed the 6.0 system had more than its share of questionable decisions. When a contest results in a 5-4 vote one has to check out the judges homelands and see if there is an agreement in regional judging. The Irinafans are still complaining about the Ladies SLC decision.

Close decisions always bring out forum pro and con arguments of judging results. Not much one can do about it unless the rules change to incorporate 'regional selection of judges' into the system. JMO.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

In '94, for example, when everyone knew it was the German judge, Jan Hoffman, who made the deciding score giving Oksana the OGM and Nancy the silver,

How did everyone know that? Why not say that the Ukrainian judge made the difference, if you want to believe that everyone else was honest and he cheated? Or that the Chinese judge made the difference -- could have voted for Chen and forced the decision to best majority of seconds, but chose Baiul instead?

 

[attyfan]

But Joe, weren't things the same under the 6.0 system except that the judges were not anonymous? It seems to me that even when we knew who each judge was and which scores s/he gave, the fans still couldn't do anything about it. ...
Rgirl

What do you think forced the IOC and the ISU to give out a second set of gold medals, if not the public pressure? At the very least, under the 6.0 system, we knew which judge (or judges) (if any) were not judging fairly, and, it could be monitored if the ISU did anything about it. Under the CoP, we don't know either of these things.

I don't see why people think Irina should have gotten higher scores under the 6.0 system, or, why there is doubt about Michelle's difficulty adjusting to the CoP. The different sets of systems reward different skills. Michelle did a better job than Irina in developing the skills that were required under the 6.0 system, and the judges reacted accordingly. What is interesting, though, is that Michelle and Irina competed for over ten years, and she still could not equal Michelle in those skills; instead, she did it "her way". However, if Michelle's body can take it (and please G-d, it can), I think it will be easier for Michelle to learn the new spins and spirals required by the new system, then it was for Irina to "learn" the musicality and passion that were heavily rewarded under the 6.0 system.

BTW, can judges give extra points under the CoP for extreme coolness in handling streakers?