Tightness of lacing and normal resistance of tongue against ankle flexion?

[WingedScapula]

I am an adult beginner skater. When lacing my Jackson 452s, I've laced the first 3 hooks somewhat tight but loosened the last one to allow for enough freedom for my ankle to flex with minimal resistance from the tongue. Is this a correct goal? A consequence of this lacing is that my ankle feels like it does not have sufficient lateral support and my coach in group classes has noticed this. She suggested leaving the last hook undone but lacing the remaining 3 even tighter. I've found this to provide better lateral support but it still allows more lateral movement than seems acceptable (I'm referencing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPk5ojdIbg&t=54s). Is it time for better supporting skates or maybe I just haven't broken in my skates properly? I have skated with them ~50 hours.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I am an adult beginner skater. When lacing my Jackson 452s, I've laced the first 3 hooks somewhat tight but loosened the last one to allow for enough freedom for my ankle to flex with minimal resistance from the tongue. Is this a correct goal? A consequence of this lacing is that my ankle feels like it does not have sufficient lateral support and my coach in group classes has noticed this. She suggested leaving the last hook undone but lacing the remaining 3 even tighter. I've found this to provide better lateral support but it still allows more lateral movement than seems acceptable (I'm referencing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPk5ojdIbg&t=54s). Is it time for better supporting skates or maybe I just haven't broken in my skates properly? I have skated with them ~50 hours.

Boots were higher when I started skating as a 6-year-old, but for some reason I got into the habit of never using the top hook. Over the decades, boots got lower, but I was into jumps and springing into pairs lifts and needed optimum ankle flexion, so that hook still never got used. I suspect by now it's become a sort of superstition. A boot just doesn't feel right if it's tied together at the top. Whether that's right for an adult beginner I don't know, just that many of my friends did the same. Sounds as if your coach agrees, but whether it's a technical thing or whether she grew up the way I did, with older style boots that didn't allow the flexion for multiple-revolution jumps I can't say. Maybe try on some boots with a higher stiffness rating and see how they feel? Lace them up the way that feels right to you and then try some moves just on the floor in the boots and see if more stiffness helps the lateral movement problem? A long time ago I fell down some stairs and really did a number on one ankle, including tearing a muscle away from the bone at the lower end of my shin. I was skating sooner than I was walking without crutches because my skate boots were so stiff (a 75, I think) they held my ankle together like an old-style plaster cast.

 

[Friday]

I am an adult beginner skater. When lacing my Jackson 452s, I've laced the first 3 hooks somewhat tight but loosened the last one to allow for enough freedom for my ankle to flex with minimal resistance from the tongue. Is this a correct goal? A consequence of this lacing is that my ankle feels like it does not have sufficient lateral support and my coach in group classes has noticed this. She suggested leaving the last hook undone but lacing the remaining 3 even tighter. I've found this to provide better lateral support but it still allows more lateral movement than seems acceptable (I'm referencing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPk5ojdIbg&t=54s). Is it time for better supporting skates or maybe I just haven't broken in my skates properly? I have skated with them ~50 hours.

Your skates are probably dead and you should never have been in those to begin with.
Please see another fitter (NOT the one who put you in your current skates).
If you need help finding a good fitter and/or are unsure about suitable skates, there are some great people here (@Ic3Rabbit) who surely help you!

 

[Coach Aimee]

According to Jackson's fit guide, the Jackson Finesse (452) is a recreational skate intended for skaters that are 40 pounds or lighter up to Basic 3.

It sounds as if you need a more supportive skate.

Ask your coach or the rink's skating director what they recommend for you and where the best place to go is to get fitted in your area.

 

[emilinkaa]

I agree that you need new skates. Those aren't strong enough for an adult skater.

That said, I have always laced mine all the way up, with the exception of the first 2-3 hours of break in for new skates. But I like my boots very stiff and very tight.

 

[tstop4me]

I am an adult beginner skater. When lacing my Jackson 452s, I've laced the first 3 hooks somewhat tight but loosened the last one to allow for enough freedom for my ankle to flex with minimal resistance from the tongue. Is this a correct goal? A consequence of this lacing is that my ankle feels like it does not have sufficient lateral support and my coach in group classes has noticed this. She suggested leaving the last hook undone but lacing the remaining 3 even tighter. I've found this to provide better lateral support but it still allows more lateral movement than seems acceptable (I'm referencing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPk5ojdIbg&t=54s). Is it time for better supporting skates or maybe I just haven't broken in my skates properly? I have skated with them ~50 hours.

From the responses to this thread, as well as to your other thread (https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/one-foot-glides-advice.95232/), you should realize that your current boot is likely too mushy. But I'll respond to your above questions to help guide you in choosing and properly breaking in your next pair of boots.

* If you want a boot that provides good lateral support, but allows for easy ankle flex front-to-back, you need to buy a model of boot designed to do that. The top of the boot and the tongue are shaped such that when the boot is fully laced up, there is empty space in front above the ankle.

* If a boot is not designed to do that, you can't fake it by simply not lacing up the hooks tightly, or by skipping the top hook. The tongue is an integral part of the boot. It must be broken in properly to mold to your foot: both curved along the front contour of your ankle and shin and wrapped around the ankle and shin.

* If you simply lace some areas tight and some areas loose, as you skate, the tension in the laces will even out: the tight areas will become looser and the loose areas will become tighter: unless you do something special with the lacing to maintain the differences in the tension. E.g., you can tie the laces firmly along all the eyelets. At the top row of eyelets, you can wrap the laces around each other 3 or 4 times and pull the laces tight. When you normally tie a pair of shoes, at the last row of eyelets or hooks, you normally wrap the laces around each other once before you tie the bow; here you wrap the laces around each other 3 or 4 times. The number depends on the particular laces. You want enough wraps such that when you let go of the laces, the tension in the laces stays put. But you can also pull on the laces to tighten them further if needed. You can now tie the laces around the hooks looser; and the tension on the portion of the laces through the eyelets will still stay tight. But if you simply tie the first three rows of hooks tight and the last row of hooks loose, very quickly the first three rows of hooks will get looser.

* When you initially break in a new pair of boots, you want to leave the laces off the top row of hooks until you can get a decent knee-and-ankle bend. Then you lace up all the hooks and finish the break in to fully mold the complete tongue to your foot.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

According to Jackson's fit guide, the Jackson Finesse (452) is a recreational skate intended for skaters that are 40 pounds or lighter up to Basic 3.

It sounds as if you need a more supportive skate.

Ask your coach or the rink's skating director what they recommend for you and where the best place to go is to get fitted in your area.

Agree with much of what you said here, but about asking coach/rink's skating director. They can send to fitter, that's fine, but there are many coaches and skating directors who are clueless to specific skate needs for many skaters feet. There have been even multiple examples of this on this forum alone where skaters have ended up in the wrong boots due to asking.

 

[Lucie]

I am an adult beginner skater. When lacing my Jackson 452s, I've laced the first 3 hooks somewhat tight but loosened the last one to allow for enough freedom for my ankle to flex with minimal resistance from the tongue. Is this a correct goal? A consequence of this lacing is that my ankle feels like it does not have sufficient lateral support and my coach in group classes has noticed this. She suggested leaving the last hook undone but lacing the remaining 3 even tighter. I've found this to provide better lateral support but it still allows more lateral movement than seems acceptable (I'm referencing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pPk5ojdIbg&t=54s). Is it time for better supporting skates or maybe I just haven't broken in my skates properly? I have skated with them ~50 hours.

As I am said in your other thread your boots are far too soft for you! Having to tie so tightly that you can’t bend/ get lace bite but still feel you are unsupported is usually a sign the skate is too soft or dead. In your case it’s a no brainer, your skates are only stiff enough at a Jackson stiffness rating of 9 for beginner small children and you should have never been fitted in them, you need a Jackson rating of at least 40, many adults start in the Jackson Freestyle unless they are especially light or heavy - that is if Jackson is the right boot shape for your feet. Please find a proper fitter, if the shop you went to thought the finesse was an appropriate boot for you they don’t know what they’re doing or were trying to get rid of dead stock (your model has been discontinued) - either way I would find someone else.

 

[WingedScapula]

Thanks for the advice everyone! Time for new skates.

Any suggestions for fitters in the NYC or Long Island area?

 

[tstop4me]

As I am said in your other thread your boots are far too soft for you! Having to tie so tightly that you can’t bend/ get lace bite but still feel you are unsupported is usually a sign the skate is too soft or dead. In your case it’s a no brainer, your skates are only stiff enough at a Jackson stiffness rating of 9 for beginner small children and you should have never been fitted in them, you need a Jackson rating of at least 40, many adults start in the Jackson Freestyle unless they are especially light or heavy - that is if Jackson is the right boot shape for your feet. Please find a proper fitter, if the shop you went to thought the finesse was an appropriate boot for you they don’t know what they’re doing or were trying to get rid of dead stock (your model has been discontinued) - either way I would find someone else.

Just to be fair to the fitter, the Jackson Finesse 452 is still listed as a current model on the Jackson website: https://jacksonskate.com/products/jackson-finesse-452-medium-support-v0. And it is supplied in men's sizes 6 - 12. So Jackson obviously sees an adult market for it (apparently including heavy men; I don't know how many men with a size 12 would fall in the lightweight category ). But I agree that a good fitter should determine the appropriate models for a particular skater under particular circumstances.

 

[Lucie]

Just to be fair to the fitter, the Jackson Finesse 452 is still listed as a current model on the Jackson website: https://jacksonskate.com/products/jackson-finesse-452-medium-support-v0. And it is supplied in men's sizes 6 - 12. So Jackson obviously sees an adult market for it (apparently including heavy men; I don't know how many men with a size 12 would fall in the lightweight category ). But I agree that a good fitter should determine the appropriate models for a particular skater under particular circumstances.

Jackson may still have the 452 on their website but they’re only available in left over sizes in stores now. It’s odd that Jackson on their website just call them ‘medium support’ without giving the numerical rating or any guide in their description as to what they are suitable for, other than describing the entire finesse range as recreational skates. They are in the same line as the fleece lined Softskate but made to look more like a traditional figure skate. The medium support seems to only be in context with the light support description of the girls Finesse which is likely only suited to small girls as once a year hobby skates.

I also find it bizarre Jackson made them in larger men’s sizes! It’s unlikely they would even be suitable as a rec skate for a large man, but I guess they will sell what the market will buy and if people want a cheap skate for occasional use Jackson will sell them one, it’s likely better than something off Amazon.

Unless OP gave the fitter a firm and very low budget for the skates they were willing to buy so that was the best the fitter could offer within their budget I still would be seeking out a better fitter myself.

 

[WingedScapula]

Jackson may still have the 452 on their website but they’re only available in left over sizes in stores now. It’s odd that Jackson on their website just call them ‘medium support’ without giving the numerical rating or any guide in their description as to what they are suitable for, other than describing the entire finesse range as recreational skates. They are in the same line as the fleece lined Softskate but made to look more like a traditional figure skate. The medium support seems to only be in context with the light support description of the girls Finesse which is likely only suited to small girls as once a year hobby skates.

I also find it bizarre Jackson made them in larger men’s sizes! It’s unlikely they would even be suitable as a rec skate for a large man, but I guess they will sell what the market will buy and if people want a cheap skate for occasional use Jackson will sell them one, it’s likely better than something off Amazon.

Unless OP gave the fitter a firm and very low budget for the skates they were willing to buy so that was the best the fitter could offer within their budget I still would be seeking out a better fitter myself.

Prior to getting fitted, I did do some research and assumed “medium support” on the 452s would have been adequate. When getting fitted, I did not notify the fitter of any budget. He did say that he starts off all beginners on these skates.

Extra details: I’m regularly size 8.5 shoes. I was sized for 7 since I only skate twice a week. Size 6 left me no wiggle room for my toes and the tech said he would suggest that on it I skated more frequently.

 

[WingedScapula]

On a side note, are flex notches a must have? I noticed some brands may have them but others do not (Edea) on any skate in their lineup.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Prior to getting fitted, I did do some research and assumed “medium support” on the 452s would have been adequate. When getting fitted, I did not notify the fitter of any budget. He did say that he starts off all beginners on these skates.

And it would depend on the fitter understanding whether you meant beginner skater (first wobbly steps on the ice at a public session, clinging to the boards or a friend's hand) or beginner figure skater (able to skate, about to start figure skating lessons). The rink I've used most often for 20+ years has some Jackson 452s among their rental skates, and then only at the ends of the size ranges because, the clerk told me, the middle sizes were the most used and wore out long ago. The rink I just started using, courtesy of my new dance partner, is part of the country club he belongs to and there are no rental skates. Their tiny pro shop stocks Jacksons, Riedells, and Edeas, starting at 40 or 45 stiffness that I saw on a quick look.

 

[Lucie]

On a side note, are flex notches a must have? I noticed some brands may have them but others do not (Edea) on any skate in their lineup.

No. Different boots are designed to flex in different ways, Edea flexes in the tongue so doesn’t need flex notches. In more traditionally designed boots with more ankle wrap the flex notch helps flexion and reduces break in time particularly in stiffer higher level boots. It’s more important to get a boot of the right stiffness and shape for your feet.

 

[WingedScapula]

And it would depend on the fitter understanding whether you meant beginner skater (first wobbly steps on the ice at a public session, clinging to the boards or a friend's hand) or beginner figure skater (able to skate, about to start figure skating lessons). The rink I've used most often for 20+ years has some Jackson 452s among their rental skates, and then only at the ends of the size ranges because, the clerk told me, the middle sizes were the most used and wore out long ago. The rink I just started using, courtesy of my new dance partner, is part of the country club he belongs to and there are no rental skates. Their tiny pro shop stocks Jacksons, Riedells, and Edeas, starting at 40 or 45 stiffness that I saw on a quick look.

I told my fitter that I was a beginner starting lessons but was able to move around unassisted but admittedly somewhat clumsily on rental skates. I also made it clear my intent to complete all adult LTS classes and eventually starting figure skating classes.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I told my fitter that I was a beginner starting lessons but was able to move around unassisted but admittedly somewhat clumsily on rental skates. I also made it clear my intent to complete all adult LTS classes and eventually starting figure skating classes.

You said everything right that you could in the situation, then. Sounds as if you've progressed faster than he expected you would and have outpaced his softer boots!

 

[WednesdayMarch]

You said everything right that you could in the situation, then. Sounds as if you've progressed faster than he expected you would and have outpaced his softer boots!

Or he didn't have anything else that would fit...

 

[Diana Delafield]

Or he didn't have anything else that would fit...

Well, that too. I was following the Thumper's Mama Rule: "If you can't say sumpin' nice, don't say nuffin at all" and giving the fitter the benefit of the doubt.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

Well, that too. I was following the Thumper's Mama Rule: "If you can't say sumpin' nice, don't say nuffin at all" and giving the fitter the benefit of the doubt.

I'm just unwell (so very grumpy) and deeply suspicious of anybody who would "fit" an adult with that kind of outfit. I'm seeing too much of it lately.