Tim Goebel leaving Frank Carroll

[Joesitz (RIP)]

'Over time, Timothy and I have come to realize that we have different philosophies on coaching and that it was time for a change,' Carroll said.

Isn't that just about the standard reply to the question of why coach/skater breakup? It's the thing to say in a press release, and end the matter. If there is a more pertinent reason, we will never know.

Joe

 

[show 42]

Good luck to Tim. It seems to be the sign of the times..........is it just me, or does it seem that there is a lot of "coaching tag" going on? It seems that it's not popular to stick with a coach for too long anymore? 42

 

[Dee4707]

Audrey herself was a talented skater, and she talked befroe that she had bitten Dorothy Hamill at Junior level.

Oh--h-h-h-h, I bet that hurt!!!

Dee

 

[JonnyCoop]

I think this is a good move as well. I think Weiss was a much better skater with Weisiger than he is with Don Laws, and I've always liked her. I'm glad she's coaching elite skaters again. Actually, when Tatyana Malinina moved to Virginia, I had hoped that she'd retain Weisiger's services, but it didn't happen.

As for Carroll -- I have a tremendous amount of respect for his coaching record, but I think a very telling comment about his style is one that he made about Linda Fratianne -- "You'd tell her to jump off the roof and she'd ask, this roof? Or this higher roof?" This indicates to me a certain style that I do not think a lot of skaters of this generation would especially respond to well. Plus he does have a lot on his plate; I think once you get to Tim's level, you need a coach who is going to be able to give you more individual attention as opposed to being another horse in the stable.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think once you get to Tim's level, you need a coach who is going to be able to give you more individual attention as opposed to being another horse in the stable.

:agree: You got it JonnyCoop. At that level a skater wants constant attention, and Caroll, Callaghan and TT have other skaters to tend to.

Joe

 

[Hermione_Granger]

Wow. I'm a bit surprised at Timothy leaving Frank.
I wonder why he didn't switch in the offseaon instead of
half way through this one ? :frown2:

Oh well. I wish Timothy all the best with his new coach. :yes:
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if he'll still work with Lori Nichol or go
with someone else. :frown2:




--Hermy

 

[jesslily]

Tim made the right move. AW does not have other elite level male skater now so Tim can get her full attention... I agree that Michael Weiss was a better skater when he trained with AW...For the past two years Frank Carroll's camp has a lot of change, It' not like the same situation when Tim just switched to him, basically just Michelle and Tim. Yebin Mok went there two or three years ago, Angelar went briefly and left because of the "cold rink", Evan came followed by Jenny Kirk, plus a couple of young girls. I'm glad that Tim finally realized it's time to move on.

 

[Mathman]

Joe, I think that had [Michelle Kwan] retained the services of another coach, the backlash would not have been so great. The fact that she stayed coachless in an Olympic year SEEMED to smack of "I'm so great that I don't need a coach." (The operative word is "seemed"--not that I think that was the case at all.) Many of her own fans did the most criticizing--perhaps feeling that she let them down by not winning the gold and that this came about because she went coachless.

Realtorgal, I think Michelle would have been criticized more if she had gone to another coach at the last minute. Then people would have said, what a shame that Frank did all the work and then someone else got the big prize.

This way, people can just think that Michelle temporarily lost her mind.

Mathman

 

[mzheng]

Nothing against Tim G., but Elvis is the original Quad King!!! People always criticized Elvis for his lack of artistry as well, but skaters like Elvis and Timothy are artists in their own right. Their jumping technique is astounding. It takes a lot of stamina to do the quad and all the triples these great athletes do. I always enjoy watching skaters like Elvis and Timothy. It's pure poetry in motion. Skating at its best.

All the best to Timothy with his new coach.

I agree Tim G. (the improved Tim after 2003) and Elvis has the presentation and style in their own right, just that Judges don't appreciate their style. Judges are more appreciated the traditional classic line and style. I always thought the same gose to Li. Judges simply don't understand or not appreciate the different style. S&Z had to modle themself into the western style to get Judge's appreciation.

 

[soogar]

I always thought that the Chinese men got the shaft, especially Li. At least Tim and Elvis got medals. The Chinese men never get World and Olympic medals even when they outjump everyone in the SP and LP. And Li has really interesting style.

 

[mzheng]

Who is footing Tim's skating bill?

I heard(read) that Audrey used to give Weiss some discount on the bill. She did not charge Weiss for the lessons she missed when she company Weiss to the competetions.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I always thought that the Chinese men got the shaft, especially Li. At least Tim and Elvis got medals. The Chinese men never get World and Olympic medals even when they outjump everyone in the SP and LP. And Li has really interesting style.

I completely agree with this. I think Chienjiang Li should have been the bronze medallist at the 2003 Worlds. There seemed to be a certain school of thought on how to mark the Chinese men, under the old system -- give them at least .2 or .3 lower on the artistic mark. At one point, this was actually an accurate reflection of their programs, but even after their artistry improved to where it was on par with their technical stuff (or at least fairly close to it), it was still the same -- .2 or .3 lower on artistry no matter what. I don't know whether the CoP will change this for them or not.

Mzheng, the main reason Audrey gave Weiss the discounts was because they'd been together for so long that Audrey was an honorary member of the family. I doubt very much Tim's going to get the same deal.

 

[Vash01]

I always thought that the Chinese men got the shaft, especially Li. At least Tim and Elvis got medals. The Chinese men never get World and Olympic medals even when they outjump everyone in the SP and LP. And Li has really interesting style.

While I agree that Li has the goods, I have not seen him deliver them when it counted. He has spectacular jumps early in the program but by the time he is in midstream he makes just enough mistakes to keep him off the podium. He loses energy toward the end, and that does not create a positive impression. If he held his own throughout the program, the judges would have given it to him, even without the traditional form of artistry.

Vash

 

[jesslily]

Tim has been in COI tour evey year, I guess he makes enough money to support his skating and living. Does he still need a coach's discount?

 

[Linny]

Coaching Change

Well, you'all may not agree with this. I generall don't use such strong language on this forum, but I'm going to go out on a limb.

Being frank here, I have to say that I was appalled when a coach brought an obviously injured skater to USA Nationals. Tim wasn't able to complete his program in practice. That skater should not have been put out on the ice to fall apart in front of the nation. Plus, it was clearly not a case of boots. After a year with all of the resources at Frank's disposal, if the young skater couldn't get a pair of boots that solved the problem, then the problem was not just boots. There were other health problems surfacing... and they appear to have gone undetected by the person responsible for seeing that skater every single day and evaluating their form.

Frank should have hidden his head in shame. The athlete can often not see the problem. The coach is supposed to. That is the coach's job. Like Frank himself said with Linda Fratianne, if the coach says jump off a building, the athlete is going to do that. That makes the coach responsible for not asking a skater to jump off a building... or appear at a major competition when they obviously can't do the program.

Having failed to live up to his responsibility as a coach, Frank should have helped Tim find someone who could.

Linny

 

[lavender]

While I agree that Li has the goods, I have not seen him deliver them when it counted. He has spectacular jumps early in the program but by the time he is in midstream he makes just enough mistakes to keep him off the podium. He loses energy toward the end, and that does not create a positive impression. If he held his own throughout the program, the judges would have given it to him, even without the traditional form of artistry.

Vash

ITA. I really like Li but he usually blows it by the middle of the program. I like his programs but I don't think the judges find him too artistic at times. He can't fall back on that when his jumps fail.

 

[dlkksk8fan]

Tim Goebel

"Being frank here, I have to say that I was appalled when a coach brought an obviously injured skater to USA Nationals. Tim wasn't able to complete his program in practice. That skater should not have been put out on the ice to fall apart in front of the nation. Plus, it was clearly not a case of boots. After a year with all of the resources at Frank's disposal, if the young skater couldn't get a pair of boots that solved the problem, then the problem was not just boots. There were other health problems surfacing... and they appear to have gone undetected by the person responsible for seeing that skater every single day and evaluating their form."

Linny -I have to agree with you on this one. I never believed the "boot" story (had some inside info on this) and believed Tim's problems with his skating was due to physical problems which then effected Tim's confidence. I agree he should have not been skating that day. As a coach Frank should have been looking out for Tim's best interest and not his own.

 

[Ptichka]

Do we know whose decision it was for Tim to compete? Remember Sasha's performance at the cheesefest -- someone could say that TT should not have let her student compete while sick.

 

[mzheng]

While I agree that Li has the goods, I have not seen him deliver them when it counted. He has spectacular jumps early in the program but by the time he is in midstream he makes just enough mistakes to keep him off the podium. He loses energy toward the end, and that does not create a positive impression. If he held his own throughout the program, the judges would have given it to him, even without the traditional form of artistry.

Vash

Well, in LP you might be right. But how about SP? He consistantly got the lower 2nd marks in his SP even he skated much better and energitically through out the SP. Judges still don't get it. Only uncle Dick recognized it. His 2003 SP perfectly translate chinese marshal arts (GongFu) onto the ice, judges dosn't care or don't understand.

I always thought judges have the style preference, unconciously more or less they bring their preference into judging. Even in SLC pairs fisco, I think it's style preference rather then what media hyped. That's why I always thought the skaters come from country where FS is not the traditional sport have to work extremly harder than the skaters from the country where FS has a long history in order to get recognization from judges. Such is a life. And I'm proud for Chinese pairs just did that. Hope some day they will do it in lady's field as well.

 

[soogar]

I'm going to agree with Mzheng here... throughout the years , the Chinese men have consistently outjumped their competitors in the SP and they were NEVER rewarded for it. So much is said how they can't spin etc, however I find it really odd that a guy can land a quad-triple in a SP and be marked so much lower than a guy who stumbles on a triple-triple combo (this is before it became de rigeur to do a 4-3 in the SP). The Chinese guys aren't that much worse than all of the other guys competing and with the exception of a few guys, most of the men competing aren't so artistically superior to the Chinese men either.

I personally think that the judges are doing their part to protect their skaters. The US men and the Russian men always get the good scores and the benefit of the doubt in the SP. It helps to skate for a country with a powerful federation.