Triple-Triple...worth it?

[Bruin714]

Hi everyone,

I have a question.

Under the CoP, which would score more points?

A) Triple Toe- Triple Toe Combo

OR

B) Triple Toe-Double Toe Combo
& a Triple Toe Solo

A or B

The reason I ask is I wonder if athletes such as Michelle needs a triple-triple or will landing 7 clean triples be enough.

Bruin

 

[berthes ghost]

Not sure what the latest points credited 3/3s are, but I do know that so far, 7 triple performances are not allowed unless one of them is an axel. If MK did her 96 worlds Salome LP for example, she would get 0 credit for the last 3toe.

Edited to add: Ok, after reading this http://ww2.isu.org/judging/Content&Criteria.html
I believe that Salome from Nats would beat Salome from worlds as a 3/3 or sequence is considered a jump "element" same as a jump. So the 3t/3t would get a 4.5 for each 3toe, but the 3t/2t would only get 4.5+1.3 and 0 for the last 3toe because it would be the 8th jump element and only 7 are allowed. She wouldn't get any points for the last axel at nats either.

So yes, unless someone smarter proves me wrong, I'm gonna say 3/3 are "worth it"

 

[skatingfan5]

Not sure what the latest points credited 3/3s are, but I do know that so far, 7 triple performances are not allowed unless one of them is an axel. If MK did her 96 worlds Salome LP for example, she would get 0 credit for the last 3toe.

Right, the way COP was set last season, 7 triples would only be possible with a triple-triple combo or sequence OR with the triple axel OR with using a double axel in combination/sequence with a triple jump. Not sure if this has been/will be changed at all -- I had heard that the number of allowed jump combinations/sequences was going to be increased to three -- but I haven't seen or read anything definite on that yet. I also read that the technical committee was going to have a quite a bit of ad hoc power to "tinker" with the COP as the season progressed. Maybe just a rumor, or might have some validity.

 

[citrus]

As a matter of curiousity, since it was brought up, would a tripple axel be scored higher than a 3-3 of any combo which didn't include a trip-axel?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A skater can do 7 triples without combos as follows:

Loop
toe loop

salchow
flip

toeless lutz - No one does it. It is too difficult
lutz

axel

The above named jumps are the only possible 7 triples without a combo.

Since no one is going to do a 'toeless lutz', a combo will do if the skater executes a triple axel. If no triple axel and no 'toeless lutz' then the skater must execute 2 combos IMO, the combos should be comprised of any combo from 4 different sources.

Joe

 

[Kasey]

I'm intrigued by the "toeless lutz". Obviously it must have been done at some point, or it wouldn't be even thought of. Whoever did it, and when???

Kasey

 

[millyskate]

The men are allowed more jumps aren't they? Still i seem to remember having worked out that Plushenko and Goebel are going to have to stop doing two quad toes and two triple axels if they want a complete set of jumps in the program. Can anyone confirm/infirm?

 

[icenut84]

The men have 8 jumping passes under COP (unless it's been changed). So for Plush, for example, he could do:

4toe-3toe (and 2loop or whatever)
4toe
3axel-half loop-3flip
3axel
3lutz
3loop
3salchow

This would only take 7 jumping passes, but allows two quads and two triple axels, plus all the triples. (Having the axel in combination with the flip allows it, because with two quad toes and two 3axels, he wouldn't be able to then do two 3toes, because of the Zayak rule. Most skaters would attempt the 3axel-3toe.)

For Tim, if he wants to do three quads (two salchows, one toe, like he did in the Olympics), aswell as two triple axels, he also can't then repeat the 3toe, because under Zayak rule you're only allowed to repeat two triples/quads. He could do:

4salchow-3toe
4salchow
4toe
3axel - 2toe
3axel
3lutz
3flip
3loop

That's 8 jumping passes, and allows three quads and two 3axels, plus all the triples (he did those jumps in the Olympics). If he did 3axel-3toe with those jumps, he'd have to either change a 4salchow to a 3salchow (like he did in 03 Worlds LP), which would still give him two quads, or he'd have to do 4salchow-2toe (so as not to repeat the 3toe).

 

[millyskate]

Thanks. I'd forgotten combos only counted as one. I remember now that the axel/flip makes the two axel thing possible. I guess we might see Joubert going for that combo as well soon, i think the landing of his axel is more prone to putting the half loop flip on the end than the triple toe. He'll badly need a second big combo and a quad sal to be competitive with the CoP.

 

[thvudragon]

A Toe-less lutz will not count if done. Only jumps listed in their SoV will count. If one does a triple walley for example, it will probably be called as a poor loop or not at all. Half loops do not count as well for the same reason. \

Anyway, a 3/3 is worth it. The new value for a triple toe is 4, so for ladies, it would be a 2.7 point increase in a 3toe/3toe vs 3toe/2toe. The whole "solo jumps are worth more" argument isn't valid. One must look at the whole program and all jump elements as a whole.

TV

 

[Bruin714]

Thanks for the link and the rules clarifications.


Intersting. A Triple-Triple is worth more than a Triple Axel. 3Toe-3Toe (the lowest possible scoring triple) is worth 4.5+4.5 = 9.0 points while a triple axel is worth 7.5 points.

Even a double axel-triple toe combo is worth more than a 3axel. 3.3+4.5 = 7.8 points.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.....:\

 

[millyskate]

Is there a deduction for missing out one of the triples?

 

[thvudragon]

Intersting. A Triple-Triple is worth more than a Triple Axel. 3Toe-3Toe (the lowest possible scoring triple) is worth 4.5+4.5 = 9.0 points while a triple axel is worth 7.5 points.

Even a double axel-triple toe combo is worth more than a 3axel. 3.3+4.5 = 7.8 points.

With the new values, it will not be so. Triples are now worth less and quads worth more.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-147005-164221-nav-list,00.html

Is there a deduction for missing out one of the triples?

No

TV