Under rotations - what causes them?

[Greengemmonster]

I'm not a skater at all (like at all!!!!) so asking this here instead of the tech forum.

Anyways it seems like everyone is being dinged for under rotations these days.

Why does it happen? Why is it happening so much more? Have they decided to call it more recently?

I started watching Figure Skating seriously after the 2018 Olympics and I didn't notice under rotations being called but now everything is q or < or <<

Did they get stricter?

It feels like the only people who don't under rotate are Nathan, Yuzuru, Kamila and Sasha.

Who do skaters under rotate? Are they not rotating fast enough? Not getting up high enough or far enough so not enough time to do all the revolutions?

Help a girl out!!!!!

 

[anonymoose_au]

This is a good question which I'd like to know too!

I'll add another question can you always tell you're under-rotating? Poor Sofia Samodurova always seems shocked by her TES for instance.

 

[skatesofgold]

I honestly think it's hard to tell, unless you're egregiously short. I assume when a skater only makes 2 1/2 rotations or 3 1/2 rotations it's because they don't have enough height, but it seems like jumps are so fast that if you don't know exactly which direction you're facing on the takeoff you might unintentionally end up a quarter short.

 

[readernick]

It feels like the only people who don't under rotate are Nathan, Yuzuru, Kamila and Sasha.

Who do skaters under rotate? Are they not rotating fast enough? Not getting up high enough or far enough so not enough time to do all the revolutions?

First, all skaters UR at times including Nathan, Yuzu, Kamila ( who fell at Finlandia on UR 3As) and Sasha who used to UR most of her quads as a junior.

URs have been a thing since the start of the IJS . Mao was plagued by UR calls her whole career.

I'm not a competitive skater but from what I have seen URs are caused by insufficient height, slow rotation, or timing problems. Some skaters Satoko, Sofia S. i.e. underrotate because of jumps that just aren't high enough.. Others like Karen Chen because they start rotation too late and some just don't rotate fast enough...

I think URs are easy to see because the jumps often have a hook on the landings...

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

a cI'm not a skater at all (like at all!!!!) so asking this here instead of the tech forum.

Anyways it seems like everyone is being dinged for under rotations these days.

Why does it happen? Why is it happening so much more? Have they decided to call it more recently?

I started watching Figure Skating seriously after the 2018 Olympics and I didn't notice under rotations being called but now everything is q or < or <<

Did they get stricter?

It feels like the only people who don't under rotate are Nathan, Yuzuru, Kamila and Sasha.

Who do skaters under rotate? Are they not rotating fast enough? Not getting up high enough or far enough so not enough time to do all the revolutions?

Help a girl out!!!!!

A really small mistake or misjudgment on the takeoff can cause a domino effect . For instance, if the takeoff is rushed, you might not get enough height and not have enough space or time to finish the rotations in the air, so that the jump is under-rotated and you can't check out in time.

We also have plenty of threads over in Lutz Corner with detailed explanations.

 

[mrrice]

This is a good question which I'd like to know too!

I'll add another question can you always tell you're under-rotating? Poor Sofia Samodurova always seems shocked by her TES for instance.

If the skater can't tell, their coach definitely should. When you're in a rink and there is no music blaring, you can HEAR under-rotations. At worlds in 2001 ( A long time ago ) I could hear Sarah Hughes' under-rotations during the warm up. A trained coach worth their salt knows when their skater is under-rotating and they just hope for a weak caller. Johnny Weir has been very good about calling UR's, even if the judges don't catch it and he's in a booth high above the ice. He's almost always right when they show the replays.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

If the skater can't tell, their coach definitely should. When you're in a rink and there is no music blaring, you can HEAR under-rotations. At worlds in 2001 ( A long time ago ) I could hear Sarah Hughes' under-rotations during the warm up. A trained coach worth their salt knows when their skater is under-rotating and they just hope for a weak caller. Johnny Weir has been very good about calling UR's, even if the judges don't catch it and he's in a booth high above the ice. He's almost always right when they show the replays.

Yes. I can do this, there is a particular sound you hear besides seeing it, also if you're close enough you can see in tracings on ice.

 

[mrrice]

Yes. I can do this, there is a particular sound you hear besides seeing it, also if you're close enough you can see in tracings on ice.

^^^

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I can feel when I do it (q is especially noticible as usually on blade or flips from toe and gives certain feeling). Can also tell when not rotating fast enough and on landing when underrotating. For me, it's very obvious.
No clue for other skaters.

 

[mrrice]

I can feel when I do it (q is especially noticible as usually on blade or flips from toe and gives certain feeling). Can also tell when not rotating fast enough and on landing when underrotating. For me, it's very obvious.
No clue for other skaters.

I agree with this. There is definitely a feel when you rotate a quarter turn on the ice. I never got to triples before I stopped but, the way we learned how to do a Lutz was to lean to the outside edge and you feel and hear that change in a quiet rink. If these elite skaters are having private or 1on 1 training with their coaches, the coach knows.

 

[Mathman]

An interesting discussion. I always assumed that the reason many jumps are under-rotated is simply thatit is hard to rotate 360 degrees, and relatively easier to rotate, say, 270.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Another way of asking this question: "How do you rotate jumps?" Which is basically what all the skaters/coaches spend most of their time trying to figure out nowadays

I think one reason UR calls seem to be more prevalent now is simply because skaters are trying to do more rotations on average - more quads, 3As, 3-3 combos etc.

Only attempting the easier doubles so not an expert on this, but usually UR feels a bit... scrapier? Also I have a swingy landing (but this can happen on rotated jumps too, if my upper body didn't check out in time). Anyway I'm bad at salvaging jumps, so more often than not I just splat

 

[zanadude]

I think it's an easy enough question to answer by just standing in a room and trying to consistently jump with one full revolution. Sometimes you won't make it all the way around, and by doing it you'll probably have a decent idea of why it turned out that way.

 

[Greengemmonster]

I think it's an easy enough question to answer by just standing in a room and trying to consistently jump with one full revolution. Sometimes you won't make it all the way around, and by doing it you'll probably have a decent idea of why it turned out that way.

Haha I've tried this many times on the trampoline and I've never been able to do one full revolution!!!

I had a pipe dream of doing one full revolution on the trampoline

 

[mikeko666]

Insufficient speed at take off can result in under-rotations, especially with women.
When a skater is very young and little, it's easier to rotate very fast and require less time in the air.
But as your body gets larger and heavier with wider shoulders, you will need to jump bigger and stay in the air longer.
Men can gain muscles to jump bigger, but women can not depend on power as much as men can. Women need to use speed to jump higher. Akiko Suzuki once said "we women can not use the same jumping technique as men or girls."

But the more you have speed, the more difficult to control. You can fall really hard on ice if you lose control with lots of speed.
So, naturally many skaters are afraid of taking off with speed and end up with under-rotations.
I have seen Mao live and she did not have much speed into take off. Her jumps had heights but not distances because of it.
Satoko's jumping technique basically hasn't changed since her junior days.

Also sense of speed can be affected by many factors, like nervousness, jet lag, etc. The ice conditions can vary from a rink to a rink. Skaters usually have less speed when they are nervous.
Yuna was exceptionally good at controlling her speed at almost any competitions and any rinks.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Insufficient speed at take off can result in under-rotations, especially with women.
When a skater is very young and little, it's easier to rotate very fast and require less time in the air.
But as your body gets larger and heavier with wider shoulders, you will need to jump bigger and stay in the air longer.
Men can gain muscles to jump bigger, but women can not depend on power as much as men can. Women need to use speed to jump higher. Akiko Suzuki once said "we women can not use the same jumping technique as men or girls."

But the more you have speed, the more difficult to control. You can fall really hard on ice if you lose control with lots of speed.
So, naturally many skaters are afraid of taking off with speed and end up with under-rotations.
I have seen Mao live and she did not have much speed into take off. Her jumps had heights but not distances because of it.
Satoko's jumping technique basically hasn't changed since her junior days.

Also sense of speed can be affected by many factors, like nervousness, jet lag, etc. The ice conditions can vary from a rink to a rink. Skaters usually have less speed when they are nervous.
Yuna was exceptionally good at controlling her speed at almost any competitions and any rinks.

Core strength also has alot to do with rotation and landing and being stable.

Both men and women strive for lean muscle in figure skating, the thighs and rear have the moew "bulkier muscles" as they should for figure skating. The only bulky upper body men you should be seeing are the pairs guys.

 

[Jontor]

This is interesting. For me, jumps looks so different with different skaters. Some URs are easy to catch in real time, others are not. Like Alysa Liu and Haein Lee this weekend. I really thought they were clean but the replays told a different story.

Then there are others that look like they UR, but they are not. Like my favourite program from last year, Maria Talalaikina's Maleficent. She doesn't seem to get a lot of height and her rotations look slow. But she is around! (Mostly.)

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[ladyjane]

Besides the feels, the hears (on practice ice without music) and the sees, I also think the calling has become - structurally and systematically - stricter. Partly helped by the introduction of the q. Where skaters would get the benefit of the doubt before when it was unclear whether it was UR or not, they now get q. Not that anyone can easily judge whether it's on a quarter or not, but it will cost a skater less than a UR but won't give them as much as a fully rotated one. I expect the q doesn't explain all as there seems to be stricter calling in general. As long as it's not a specific group of skaters who gets them but the strict judgement applies to all, I am quite happy with these stricter calls. It will also help coaches to improve their technique teaching as well as help the skaters themselves.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Besides the feels, the hears (on practice ice without music) and the sees, I also think the calling has become - structurally and systematically - stricter. Partly helped by the introduction of the q. Where skaters would get the benefit of the doubt before when it was unclear whether it was UR or not, they now get q. Not that anyone can easily judge whether it's on a quarter or not, but it will cost a skater less than a UR but won't give them as much as a fully rotated one. I expect the q doesn't explain all as there seems to be stricter calling in general. As long as it's not a specific group of skaters who gets them but the strict judgement applies to all, I am quite happy with these stricter calls. It will also help coaches to improve their technique teaching as well as help the skaters themselves.

The bolded part...I wasn't talking solely practice w/o music. I can hear it and pick it out with music on practice, during comp and show, and i guarantee Weir (as someone mentioned ) and other pros can do the same.

 

[ladyjane]

That's okay. I recalled one poster mentioning hearing it when there was no music. Good for you if you can even hear it with music, during comp and show. I definitely am no pro, so kudos to all of them!