US figure skating is a big joke

[Spun Silver]

Better to do the jump, spin... that you are really good at then to try a higher level that you are just OK at.

Not according to those judging the spins in the ladies' free skate. hwell:

 

[wonderlen3000]

How about

1. The base value of Rachel's jumps were higher i.e 3F-3T.
2. Three of Marai's Jumps were under rotated
3. Marai got and ! edge warning on her 3Lz

Rachael seems to be the only female US skater with a consistantly clean 3Lz no edge problems. She is way on the outside edge, no question about it.

Actually Rachael got gifted b/c the U.S thought her consistancy might have a chance against the top ladies from around the world. No disrespect to her, but if u follow international judging protocol, her 3Lz has been dinged with at least -2GOE on every competition.

 

[Layfan]

Not according to those judging the spins in the ladies' free skate. hwell:

Seriously. And the spirals too. I guess according to CoP Rachael technically got into three positions during the spiral sequence that earned a level 4. But just like doing a cheated triple should earn you a down grade, doing a hideous arabesque spiral (if that's what it's called) shouldn't count. The way I see it, if Mirai didn't truly to a 3 lutz, then Rachel didn't truly do a level 4 spiral. I get that Rachel gets a lower GOE for her L4 spirals and that's good, I guess. But somehow ... I don't know it's just a pet peeve of mine these awful spiral sequences that the ladies are forced to do. Even Michelle Kwan, her spiral sequence became less enjoyable once she changed it in anticipation of CoP.

It'd be one thing if CoP was encouraging girls to be brilliant at spirals. But it's not. It's just encouraging them to contort themselves into positions that they can't really do because they'll get points for it anyway.

 

[bethissoawesome]

The fact that Rachael got +GOE's for her spiral is laughable. I won't argue the level of difficulty, since that is clearly stated... but with GOE, we are talking about quality, and the quality of Rachael's spiral is severely lacking and, imho, is closer to deserving a -GOE than a +GOE. (I almost find it a bit fishy that the +GOE's on her spiral gave her the EXACT point value she needed to make up for the -GOE on her 3F+3T).

If I could change one thing about CoP, it would be that all non-jump elements would be weighed more heavily into PCS. Heck, I would add two component scores... one for jumps: the range of jumps shown, so that skaters at Senior level should have to demonstrate as many different types of jumps as possible. This would make up for skaters only focusing on difficult jumps and not training others altogether. The other would be for all around ability, not including jumps, focusing on spins, spirals, and step sequences. It would force skaters to be more diverse, not rely heavily on just jumping, certain jumps, or other elements... it would also make up for the lower point values of certain jumps. A skater should be rewarded for having a well-rounded and complete jump repetoire demonstrated in competition and well rounded skating ability overall. /shrug. just some thoughts.

 

[Layfan]

The fact that Rachael got +GOE's for her spiral is laughable. I won't argue the level of difficulty, since that is clearly stated... but with GOE, we are talking about quality, and the quality of Rachael's spiral is severely lacking and, imho, is closer to deserving a -GOE than a +GOE. (I almost find it a bit fishy that the +GOE's on her spiral gave her the EXACT point value she needed to make up for the -GOE on her 3F+3T).

If I could change one thing about CoP, it would be that all non-jump elements would be weighed more heavily into PCS. Heck, I would add two component scores... one for jumps: the range of jumps shown, so that skaters at Senior level should have to demonstrate as many different types of jumps as possible. This would make up for skaters only focusing on difficult jumps and not training others altogether. The other would be for all around ability, not including jumps, focusing on spins, spirals, and step sequences. It would force skaters to be more diverse, not rely heavily on just jumping, certain jumps, or other elements... it would also make up for the lower point values of certain jumps. A skater should be rewarded for having a well-rounded and complete jump repetoire demonstrated in competition and well rounded skating ability overall. /shrug. just some thoughts.

Yeah, now that I know that not everything about spins and spirals are not included the PCS it helps me understand more how some skaters are who always gorgeous on the presentation side don't get as high PCS as I would have expected. It does make sense to me when people explain it. But ... how many fans are going to take the time to understand that a skater gets different levels on spins AND different grades of execution. And that the GOE can be negative or positive? I guarantee you that when that PCS goes up on the screen nobody sitting at home has a clue what it means. They may understand that Kim Yuna got a huge score and broke another record. But then even that gets muddled because now Rachael Flatt also has a score above 200. I can understand that scores at nationals are inflated (Michelle Kwan obviously alwasy got more 6.0s at nationals than at worlds) but REALLY. I'll eat my hat if Rachael (or Mirai) gets more than 130 points for the LP at the Olympics.

 

[silverlake22]

The fact that Rachael got +GOE's for her spiral is laughable. I won't argue the level of difficulty, since that is clearly stated... but with GOE, we are talking about quality, and the quality of Rachael's spiral is severely lacking and, imho, is closer to deserving a -GOE than a +GOE. (I almost find it a bit fishy that the +GOE's on her spiral gave her the EXACT point value she needed to make up for the -GOE on her 3F+3T).

Rachael's spirals aren't bad, I mean, they're not gorgeous, but they are fine. It's her spins that are not so pretty. On the today show she did a gorgeous donut spin though so i wonder why she doesn't do that in her programs instead of those ugly catch foot spins?

 

[gfskater]

Not according to those judging the spins in the ladies' free skate. hwell:

Are you sayng that the judges never give +GOE?

 

[gfskater]

Rachael's spirals aren't bad, I mean, they're not gorgeous, but they are fine. It's her spins that are not so pretty. On the today show she did a gorgeous donut spin though so i wonder why she doesn't do that in her programs instead of those ugly catch foot spins?

I agree, extreme extension is not the only quality that judges are looking for. Good speed during sequence, good flow energy and execution, connecting steps, how the spiral highlights the character of the program and other features are also considerd for GOE. Rachaels spirals had many of these qualities.

 

[Wicked]

you know, it's funny, I absolutely HATE math, but I LOVE the CoP... it makes sense to me! go figure

ITA.

 

[jcoates]

I agree, extreme extension is not the only quality that judges are looking for. Good speed during sequence, good flow energy and execution, connecting steps, how the spiral highlights the character of the program and other features are also considerd for GOE. Rachaels spirals had many of these qualities.

Good point. We've become obsessed the last 15-20 years with contortionist positions in spirals and have forgotten to look at the other aspects of the move. Most importantly the blade on the ice, the size of the pattern on the ice, the speed and flow, how the move is used with the music. If we applied the same rules of 2010, to past beautifully done spirals, we would be dismissing Dorothy Hamill's strong and steady classic spiral, also Yuka's. They did not have extreme leg position, but they had excellent edging and glide. Rachel may not be made of rubber, but she covers the ice well and has far better glide than she's given credit for.

 

[Mrs. P]

Okay, something to put on the table here. We have dealt with COP for about 7 years (GP 2003, right?)

While that seems like a super long time, it's not when you consider we've been using 6.0 for several decades. In 2002, it was clear that 6.0 was not working. And back then everyone had their share of comments about how bad the system ws.

So it amazes me that people are suddenly nostalgic for the 6.0 after just a few years. I think the COP has its flaws and yes the artistry is lacking in this system, but you'll see that 6.0 was modified several times to account for its flaws. (i.e. ordinal placements in the 1980s so people couldn't build a lead after doing figures)

But here's what I like about the COP:
** I love that you can come from behind. Look at the 2004 World Championships with Shen and Zhao. They had a bang up free program, scoring several 6.0s, but they couldn't win the whole thing because they placed fourth in the SP and didn't get enough help from the top teams (though they did not skate as well) to win the whole thing. Under the old scoring system, Ashley Wagner would never have been able to jump from 12th to 4th. (Of course on the other hand, you could also build a huge lead after the SP ala Kim Yuna and make it impossible for other to catch up, which I consider a flaw of this program).
** I do like there is some sort of technical standard you have to live up to. While I don't like that in some cases it's at a case of art, the fact is that this is a sport and people do want some standards on things. Obviously there's a great disagreement on what those standards should like, but I'm glad there's standards. It makes it easier to figure out what to work on. Whether Carroll and Mirai agree on the UR...the fact is that they now know that they need to be 100 percent sure those jumps are rotated so there's no doubt. So if it's 1/4 of a turn, make sure you rotate it so the UR is less than 1/8 or 1/16. Under the old system...a 5.7 would give you no indication on what exactly you needed to do technically.

I think this system can be much improved, but I think it's totally unrealistic to expect the ISU to just dump it. I think at this point, the ISU will need to take a closer look at what's working with the system, what's not...and go from there.

***
As for the state of U.S. Figure Skating, I'm pretty appalled at the lack of attention to the other disciplines. The men did a bang up job. The top three definitely showed a great mix of art and technical content. Consider that Jeremy Abbott completed 7 triples, a quad and did them beautifully. We're sending probably two really great ice dance teams to the Olympics who have a real shot at the medal. And our top pair? Who wouldn't be amazed by the fact they're going to the Olympics after just less than two years together.
I know some of you only care about the women, but I think it's pretty pretentious to say that U.S. Figure Skating is a joke based on discipline.
***
That said, the arguments I see on here are clearly from people who clearly dislike Rachael Flatt for whatever reason and feel the need to say it OVER AND OVER again their opinion. (I get the point, folks.)
They're also from folks who were sure that Sasha would just come in here after four years and just sweep everyone away. Well, that clearly didn't happen. (But as I said in another post, I still praise Sasha for going for it and being a good sport!)
I don't think our U.S. ladies are far from perfect, but I think just because a skater doesn't fit your mold of it-factor or your style doesn't mean that they're not a good skater or they won't advance in the sport. (Then again, despite what I said earlier, you still have your right to express your disagreement, even if it's ad naseum.)
Personally I think in the end, you'll see Rachael and Mirai (and Ashley) duke it out in the next four years. I think they will drive each other to improve whatever weakness they have.
We also forget that they're 17 and 16, respectively. Just shy of 17, Kim Yuna and Mao Asada competed at their first world championships. I think you can look forward to more competition from Mirai and Rachael and I bet that they'll challenge each other in the next few years. (And let's not forget Christina Gao!) I said there's a lot to look forward to.

Sorry for the long post...but had a lot of thoughts.

 

[psbfan01]

All you need to know about latest judging controversy

She won by 12 points. Mirai underrotated 3 of her jumps. That was the difference. Even if Mirai had been scored higher on PCS, it wouldn't have been enough.

Your points are valid and should be conceded by those who disagree.


I have never skated myself and while I can tell the difference between types of jumps, I usually do not notice underrotations and edge differences, etc.

BTW, the New York Times sucks as always...

 

[Vlad]

U.S. Figure Skating is disgusting. I'm sick of non-sense.

Really?!Do you watch US?I disagree with you.US ladies much better in all levels that europeans(only Carolina can compete them seriously).Tell me,who in Euro champs jumps 3-3?Only Kostner.In US-All medalists.

 

[Yschntä]

Also Lepisto, Gedevanishvili and Leonova jump 3-3. It is not a difficult one (they all did 3T-3T) but they do jump it

 

[jcoates]

Whole post.

Excellent and well said.

I left these nationals feeling very encouraged. Whenever you can picture the alternates in every disipline as being viable Olympic team members who are just as deserving of a spot as their competitors, you know you've had a very strong event. We may not have true medal threats in pairs and ladies given the international depth of those fields, but our champions are not slouches. Can anyone name another country, except perhaps Canada, that displayed as much depth across all four disciplines as the US did at their Olympic trials?

We have a lot to build on with our ladies. So what if we don't medal this season? The last time that happened (1964), we spawned a ridiculously long and talent laden stretch of champions and Olympic medallists from Fleming to Cohen. All our ladies medallists are solid talents and should be allowed to develop into the best versions of THEMSELVES, not the next imitation of Kwan or Cohen or any of their other predecessors. This is not cloning, it's skating. We should be encouraging and building our talent. Not tearing them apart.

As for pairs, I have not been this jazzed about a US pairs team in nearly ten years. Denny and Barrett have huge of upside potential, especially considering all the anticipated retirements after this season. Look at how much they have improve since last year! If McClaughlin and Brubaker can ever solve their SBS issues and use the fact that they have legitimate challengers at home as inspriration, we could have two top level pairs for the next four years.

Our men and dance fields have developed lots of depth. So pleased about that. The fact that we have distinct skating hotbeds for those disciplines has done wonders. We need to keep building on that foundation and not get complacetn and just expect it to happen like we did for the ladies after Sasha retired and Kimmie won worlds.

 

[Mrs. P]

Can anyone name another country, except perhaps Canada, that displayed as much depth across all four disciplines as the US did at their Olympic trials?

Thanks for your kind words. I think it's interesting you bring up other countries and their depth. My thoughts:

Russia: They are sending 10 skaters/pairs to the Olympics just like the U.S., though in different combos (3 pairs/dance and 2 men/women as opposed to 3 ice dance/men and 2 women/pairs in the U.S.). The women has been in a flux for a few years since Irina, but it looks like there's some up and comers to watch (including Alena and Ksenia). The dance and pairs are solid, especially with Russians winning Euros in both disciplines this year. The men have Plushy, but don't know much about the men beyond that.

Canada: (8 pairs/skaters) I think Canada is interesting because there is a medal contender in each discipline - Rochette for the ladies, Chan for the men, Virtue and Moir for Ice Dance and Dube and Davidson for the pairs. And I think there are some up-and-comers in the wings as well.

Japan: Great men and women. Wow! Talk about depth. Japan could send their top 8 skaters in both and really make a killing in the Olympics and Worlds. But their pairs and ice dance is non-existant.

Korea: Well Yuna Kim is kind of it for now. I can see that she could encourage more skaters there to compete (and I think it's clear she has!) But how long it will take for Korea to get that depth or another top skater or pair is unclear. If it does happen, however, I see it happening in ladies first because as long as Yuna Kim competes there will be a second spot= international experience for another skater.

Italy: (6 skaters/pairs) Some potential here, but not sure the depth beyond Kostner and Contesti.

China: (5 skaters/pairs) Great pairs, but that's because Yao Bin was pretty determined to make it that way. Potential in women, but not much in the men.

 

[aftertherain]

*insert whole post here*

Sorry for the long post...but had a lot of thoughts.

I agree with a lot of things you said. Initially, I was a bit turned off by the CoP, but it does have its benefits and disadvantages like 6.0 system did.

 

[janetfan]

Seriously. And the spirals too. I guess according to CoP Rachael technically got into three positions during the spiral sequence that earned a level 4. But just like doing a cheated triple should earn you a down grade, doing a hideous arabesque spiral (if that's what it's called) shouldn't count. The way I see it, if Mirai didn't truly to a 3 lutz, then Rachel didn't truly do a level 4 spiral. I get that Rachel gets a lower GOE for her L4 spirals and that's good, I guess. But somehow ... I don't know it's just a pet peeve of mine these awful spiral sequences that the ladies are forced to do. Even Michelle Kwan, her spiral sequence became less enjoyable once she changed it in anticipation of CoP.

It'd be one thing if CoP was encouraging girls to be brilliant at spirals. But it's not. It's just encouraging them to contort themselves into positions that they can't really do because they'll get points for it anyway.

ITA and think CoP has absolutely ruined spirals. The three position and THREE SECOND hold is one of the stupidest things I can imagine. By nature it is anti-musical and that is why so many of us are yawning - or worse - during so many spiral sequences.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Despite my personal promise to stay out of Nationals' Annual Grouse and Whine Spectacular - I cannot help but add my two cents to this particular conversation...

I am amazed at how quickly opinions change based on one competition. A month ago, if a poster pointed out that a 3 triple program wasn't in keeping with the intregity of the sport, replies would fly about how "skating isn't just about jumps and that if you don't see that, you're crazy!" Now, the comments have 180ed into: "skating is a technical sport and jumps should be rewarded!"

Doesn't this say something about the current reality of the sport if the judging system doesn't allow for a baseline? I've seen so much variance from competition to competition that it makes my head spin...

I don't know if Mirai's jumps were underrotated. They looked fine to me. I do remember being moved by her performance. But at the same time, while Racheal's skating didn't speak to me, I figured she'd won the overall competition half way through Mirai's long. My husband and I even discussed it and came to the conclusion that Racheal is perfect to play spoiler at the Games because she's so consistent. She reminds me of Irina circa 2000... not always the prettiest skater but gets the job done. And that's fine. Skating has always made room for that type of skater.

But I'm starting to get tired of this sport. Between the ISU's inability to market it properly, the judging being all over the map, the skaters who are predictable and sometimes just downright sloppy and boring (only to be rewarded...) I'm not sure if its worth my passion any longer.

I watch sports to be inspired and to watch greatness. Where's the greatness in figure skating? Some might be appalled at this attitude since apparently if you aren't over the moon about the current crop of champions, Davis & White being the exception, there is something wrong with you. What sense does that make?

Many accuse me of being ONLY a Kwan fan... while I am definately a proud uber, I have always been clear that at some point she'd retire. Just like Kat, Kristie, Irina, Diva, and soon Ando retire. Its the nature of this sport. Skaters skate and then move on. But the next generation comes along and takes their spot. So that's not my issue.

My issue comes down to all this "extra." Is skating worth the "extra" anymore? I'm not sure but I do know it makes me sad...

 

[aftertherain]

Korea: Well Yuna Kim is kind of it for now. I can see that she could encourage more skaters there to compete (and I think it's clear she has!) But how long it will take for Korea to get that depth or another top skater or pair is unclear. If it does happen, however, I see it happening in ladies first because as long as Yuna Kim competes there will be a second spot= international experience for another skater.

...

China: (5 skaters/pairs) Great pairs, but that's because Yao Bin was pretty determined to make it that way. Potential in women, but not much in the men.

If Korea's anything like Japan after Midori Ito, you bet it will. And I don't doubt Korea's cultivating its new crop of skaters right now. In fact, I think Yuna sponsors some of them (both male and female).

Yao Bin was motivated by his humilation at his own Worlds, so you gotta appreciate what he's done. Must be proud. I know I am. It's a shame that China didn't help new singles skaters after Chen Lu retired. If they did, I'm sure they'd be great.