US Men: Did the judges have it right?

[TontoK]

I think Adam's win is consistent with how the general public/casual viewer (not die-hard fans) views skating in the US - as both a sport and a performance. I count myself as one that can barely tell the difference of any of the jumps, even after watching skating since Dorothy Hamil at the Olympics. (Dating myself here...).

I just know what I like to see in a skating program (a blend of Skills, Artistry and Jumps that highlight the performance)
Adam - The Performer (and Lifetime Achievement Award)
Max - The Sportsman
Nathan - The Future (and History Maker)

It is very consistent with the casual viewer's opinion that figure skating is a pretend sport, and that judges just hand out medals to who they want.

I'm not arguing that Adam wasn't a better artist. That's subjective. But whatever artistic advantage he had should have been dwarfed by the technical gap.

Instead, he beats Max Aaron's 2 Quad program on the technical score. It was a ripoff. Plain and simple. Heck, he was only 7 points off of Chen's 4-quad program on technical. Unbelievable, even conceding Chen's fall on the 3A. For goodness sakes, he landed only one 3-3 combination. That's not as good as Gracie Gold.

 

[noskates]

If it makes you feel better, I'm sure it would have been just as bad (or worse - at least Adam is an Arteest) if Max had won.

I realize everything on your radar is about Max. But I also think no matter who won it would be the same tired old argument about the judges being wrong, the USFSA against (fill in a name) and someone got cheated.

So basically, posters in this forum are far and above more savvy as to the nuances and the technicalities of figure skating than a panel of judges (who generally have had years of judging) and a technical panel who are supposedly the experts on all things technical.

Wow.

 

[TontoK]

The tech panel got it wrong with Adam's 4lz and 3lz. With correct tech marks, he would have been third, I think. Ninth at Worlds, I suspect.

On the side of improvement, at least his hair was not purple at this event

Agree with you on purple hair. I think 9th would be an achievement.

 

[skateluvr]

Ah Doris. Love it when you are snarky. Truly his hair color has been the only change in years. I saw him sobbing in the kiss and cry and he knows it was a gift for staying in and working all these years . We all do. That is how nationals is different than the Grand Prix where new talent can win a medal at the first competition as a senior.

My question is under IJS internationally are the judges rewarding the athlete over the artist? I think yes in both men's and ladies. Most of the time anyway. So doesn't US Nationals and perhaps other Nationals seem rather regressive in claiming the artist won when said artist hasn't got a chance internationally because he cannot compete athletically for many reasons?. Nathan Chen is fighter so this won't hold him back I hope. But I wonder what the Japanese Russians and Canadians think about the men's event judging.

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Yes, but remember there are 13 elements in the men's freeskate and 5 program components, the judges do not know what levels the tech panels call on spins and steps, the base values for jumps can change if there are underrotations or downgrades, or edge calls, not to mention the second half bonus and sequence multipliers, fall deductions if applicable, etc. And the program components are factored, although the junior and senior men's factors are 1 for the SP and 2 for the FS which makes the math much easier than for other disciplines or competition levels.

Judges can have a pretty good sense of who they're individually giving the highest total GOEs+PCS in that program, but I highly doubt any of them can do the mental math quickly and accurately enough to be sure how their own scores in the free program will combine with the base values assigned by the tech panel and Scale of Values and the point differentials carried over from the short program.



How does the scoring in gymnastics compare to skating IJS in terms of the number of different scores a judge would need to keep in mind -- or guess if it's officially hidden from them (level calls)?



There's no secret judging at US Nationals. The scores in column 1 belong to Judge 1, the scores in column 2 to judge 2, etc. You know exactly which judges gave which scores.

The new code in gymnastics separates the difficulty panel from the execution panel. Gymnasts are given a D-score and an E-score. Mind you, the E-score only goes down, not up. There is no GOE in gymnastics, only deductions (although there are overall considerations for amplitude and dynamic movement). In the 10.0 system, which is still used in the lower levels in the U.S., often judges still do it all. However, regardless of the system, there is always a panel of judges and there needs to be start value agreement (difficulty or D-score) and a reasonable range for the E-score for things to be accepted or a referee steps in (or judges confer at small meets). Gymnastics judges use short hand to keep track of skills and deductions (or to tabulate a start value), and so we do make notes as we score the routine, which helps. I imagine skating judges can do something similar, though they have a much greater amount of time between elements to score them. Gymnastics routines, especially uneven bars, can be skill-skill-skill with no time to look down. You get really good at writing without looking.

I find that when I watch skating it is not too difficult to see what level a skill is and what GOE I might assign it and to be aware of this as I go along. It's also not hard to note if something seems under-rotated or off a questionable edge. I have not taken the time to memorize the values assigned to positive and negative GOE for every skill in every discipline, only base value, so I don't always have a precise score in my head at the end, but this is more due to the fact that I haven't cared to try to memorize those numbers. They change often anyways. Still, I have a rough idea at the end of watching something. If I, as a casual viewer watching at home, have a rough idea, I imagine that those who are dedicated to knowing the code have a pretty solid idea of how their scores add up.

Often I try to turn off the judge mind and simply enjoy a performance, but that is hard to do. At least sometimes I can do so for skating. It's almost impossible for me to watch a gymnastics meet and not judge. Once you get in the habit of scoring things it becomes a bit of a reflex.

If we, as fans of figure skating, feel we can get a pretty good handle on a performance as we watch, how much more will trained judges be able to do so? It seems like I frequently encounter the opinion on this board that judges have too big a task, but the people sharing this opinion have also analyzed the score without being trained. Why do we seem to think the judges are worse at their job than we are? I maintain that they know what their scores are doing. They know the calls and the values even if they are not the technical controller.

I suppose the only possible exception to this is if they are working with a technical caller who does not call things in a manner that is consistent with the majority of the other technical callers. That is were things might go wonky. Judges have an idea if something is under and might be surprised if its not called at all, but they will know wherein the discrepancy lies.


Edit to add- in gymnastics there are eight counting elements (ten for the men), plus several required types of skill that are worth five tenths each (these are called CRs). So, not too different from skating's 13 counting elements, but you see them in a shorter time as routines are capped at 1:30. The exception to this, of course, is vault, which is one big skill with several phases that include pre-flight, repulsion, post-flight, and landing.

 

[Snoopy15]

I don't enjoy being the pessimist but I think that Adam will get eaten alive in the international field at both 4CC and Worlds.
You simply can't have a DOWNGRADED Quad in events where skaters are throwing out clean Quads left and right.
The components difference was ridiculous. Adam has good movement compared to Max, but his awkward skating skills and lack of fluidity between movements will not serve him well. The "bouncy" crossovers he does make him look like he's always struggling to gather speed and his movements are defined but simple. There is almost a lack of dynamic between all of the sections of his programs. Meanwhile, someone like Nathan has many movements and use of upper body and they are just as well defined, if not more, than Adam's. Sure, he could slow down every now and then, but his program was much more complex and suitable to what he was doing. Scoring 90 on components for a nice but mediocre Beatles program is absurd. Combined with the leniency on his rotations, it seems like there was some bias.
At the end of the day, think about it in terms of numbers. Aaron did 2 Quads and 1 Triple Axel. Nathan did 4 Quads. Adam did 2 Triple Axels. Are jumps all that matter? Of course not. But do I think Adam deserved those components relative to Nathan (and Max)? Absolutely not.
It doesn't matter if one has competed for 8 years at a National level. The only thing that should matter is what was done on the ice at that moment.

 

[shan22044]

It is very consistent with the casual viewer's opinion that figure skating is a pretend sport, and that judges just hand out medals to who they want.

I'm not arguing that Adam wasn't a better artist. That's subjective. But whatever artistic advantage he had should have been dwarfed by the technical gap.

Instead, he beats Max Aaron's 2 Quad program on the technical score. It was a ripoff. Plain and simple. Heck, he was only 7 points off of Chen's 4-quad program on technical. Unbelievable, even conceding Chen's fall on the 3A. For goodness sakes, he landed only one 3-3 combination. That's not as good as Gracie Gold.

AMEN. Preach!
I am a viewer who is currently as casual as someone like me can possibly be. That is, I used to tape every single competition on VHS and watch them over and over in the 80s and 90s. And during the Olympics I watch every single performance, et cetera. And I've checked out the entire Grand Prix this year, tho not so much in recent years.

But I consider myself casual because I don't know too many of the skaters who aren't medalists nor do I really root for anyone in particular. And TBH I have been put off by the judging scandals every few years. How can a sport survive with this much BS? And what's the point of the new scoring system and so-called transparency if they're going to just give the medals to whomever they want?? I was calling BS the entire time (and even my two casual family members saw it). This was history, and if a guy who hit 4 quads ended up off the podium I was going to have to consider hanging up my viewing skates for good.

I'm not kidding. I've always gotten offended by people who suggest that figure skating isn't a real sport, but the judges are always giving them more ammunition than they could ever dig up on their own. If the scores don't matter and are fully subjective, why should we even bother with scores at all? The sport has already losing its viewership pull for years, I mean I couldn't even believe that they showed five hours on Saturday and two hours today! This organization needs to be fully transparent and consistent! This isn't the Academy Awards! :disagree:

 

[skateluvr]

Gkelly I thought we did not know who the judges are. Is this only at international events? Thank you for correcting me

 

[beki]

The quad is the new triple axel. You're not a top man without it. I may enjoy some quadless men more than the prodigious jumpers, but I can still enjoy them without seeing them at the top of the podium. There's no need to choose between athleticism and artistry, because the international contenders have both. But we have many skaters with one half the equation. Especially with some of our best injured, the level was low here. I could hear Johnny and Tara talking around that reality.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It wasn't a good championship. Nathan Chen made history by being the first person to do 4 clean quads in the LP, and I think he deserved to win, but many qualities are lacking with him. His footwork sequence in the SP is the only part of the entire event where he even tried to perform for real and that was still rather pasted-on, even if it's one of the better footwork sequences we see these days (*sigh*). The skating he showed at this event is not desirable for the sport. But, the skill he showed is also unquestionable. It was the best.

Adam Rippon by far tried to perform the most and show attention to the nuance of the music and to his movement, but the programs aren't great enough. His skating compared to these other guys is a massive, necessary breath of fresh air - particularly in the LP - but it's still too constrained. He could go even further above and beyond these other guys as an artist but the system just won't let him, as least in terms of what his coach and choreographer have groomed into him. I would be perfectly happy to see him win this competition with no Quad, but it just wasn't strong enough. He wasn't clean in the SP and his jumps overall lack power. He doesn't have Patrick Chan skating skills or Jason Brown transitions and flexibility.

Max Aaron skated the cleanest in the event but there's nothing praise-worthy about his skating for someone at this level. His artistry is literally cringe-inducing at times. He did well with the jumps but it wasn't a Plushenko-like domination. There actually wasn't a single jump in the event from him that I could say "wow that was amazing" about. His quads have become more controlled but less explosive. If you look at him 3 years ago, there was a raw excitement and pop in his skating that has simply been missing ever since then. His sense of identity is missing.

 

[Sugarpova]

havent seen the performances but Im as usual with Plushy & TAT on this
Quads should be rewarded b/c its men's skating! Where else can it be rewarded? Haha Polina T & Liza should step up, learn quads & show em how its done!:agree:

Im OK with Adam but I too dont see him as this ARTIST judges might think:confused2:
I do like Nathan more than him (oh & he's nowhere near Brown in that regard I really missed him here:sad21

 

[Shayuki]

Well PCS is PCS and GOE is GOE but objectively Rippon had a 3Lz< and his 4Lz was << and neither were called so the answer is obviously no, using only facts.

 

[apons575]

I was really thinking when Adam was in the K&C that Max won. I think I'm in the minority, but I still believe that Max should have won...but narrowly. 1)Max 2)Nathan 3)Adam
Max gave us 3 quads, 3 triple axels at this competition, with an improved "artistry" (I'm sorry, but Phillip Mills is not ALL THAT, he basically just recycled the program he used for Ashley Wagner in 2012). Max's presence on the ice, for me, gave him the edge to win the gold. I kept yelling at the TV that he should turn one of those double axels at the end into a triple salchow so he could make up the points, ala Skate America/triple toe. Max is also the only of the three to perform 2 clean programs.
Nathan made history, landing a ton of quads...but the judges were right in regards to his components. Just because you do all of these quads does not mean you are a complete skater. He needs to work on his interpretation, really selling a program. Most of the time it just looked like he was skating from one end to the other, just checking off the list. Not to say he was terrible, but he's still a young skater. I think the USFS made the right decision sending him to worlds, he needs to SEE the top men and learn from their expression and power. Big things will come to this kid...but Rafael needs to focus on developing Nathan artistically.
Finally, Adam...he's a lovely skater, and is a great performer. And his jumps were actually pretty well delivered, including his triple axels. BUT, you can't win with a fall on your ONE quad in the entire competition, and still be seen as the champion against two guys who performed multiple quads. It's not like Plushenko and Lysacek, where Plushenko did one quad toe in a sloppy performance compared to Lysacek's more solid outing. Max and Nathan did MULTIPLE quads. Yes, Adam is definitely the better artist of the three men, but that can only go so far in this sport.
Overall, I wish we could combine the talents of Nathan and Adam into one skater, and boom...look out world! And Nathan has such an amazing future ahead of him. I'm glad all three of these men will go to Worlds! I'm not expecting medals from them (maybe Max if he's clean), but I do expect them to keep three spots for next year, and I think they're very capable!

 

[MasterB]

Before I even read everyone's opinion I will state mine, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo....

 

[FSGMT]

I may be a bit against everyone else but (even if I disagree with Adam winning) I do think Max was judged very generously on the PCS side: this may very well have been the worst performance of this FS this season so far. It was really really dull and empty, especially during the second half, when ther were mutiple times when I recall thinking "Why is that music there? It has nothing to do with wath he's doing!". It looked as if he was afraid of something or extremely nervous, or maybe just extremely tired, but on the whole it didn't work at all.
Not only do I think that the gap between Max and Adam in PCS was correct, but I also think that he should have been beaten by Chen, too (if not for SS, certainly in TR, PE, CH and IN)!
But, again: this is all about PCS, the technical side in another thing.

 

[HanDomi]

For me
1. Chen
2/3 Aaron/Rippon hard to say

 

[Rissa]

When it comes to PCS, there was a 5 point difference between Adam and Max. Frankly, I think it should be more, in favor of Adam. So this is what the judges got about right. Max was overscored on PCS, Nathan was underscored on GOEs and a bit on PCS. But I don't think the result, Adam winning, is the terrible mistake some people in the Men's LP thread are making it to be. Max was lackluster performance-wise and had fewer triples, Nathan still has ways to go in the performance department. Overall, it should have been either Adam or Nathan in the first place, depending on what one values more, the tech or the performance.

 

[gkelly]

Gkelly I thought we did not know who the judges are. Is this only at international events? Thank you for correcting me

The judges are definitely anonymous (the order of the judges' columns in the protocols is randomized, separately skater by skater) at ISU championships (I think this includes Junior Worlds) and senior Grand Prix.

They are definitely not anonymous at US domestic competitions or on the Junior Grand Prix.

I don't know how other countries do it at their domestic competitions, or other international competitions, e.g., senior B. It may depend on the organizers.

Not only do I think that the gap between Max and Adam in PCS was correct, but I also think that he should have been beaten by Chen, too (if not for SS, certainly in TR, PE, CH and IN)!
But, again: this is all about PCS, the technical side in another thing.

Chen did beat Aaron in the freeskate, on the strength of the TES, but by fewer points than he was behind in the SP after his mistakes there.

He did not beat Aaron on any of the components, which you disagree with. Aaron certainly looked more powerful to me on TV, and the commentators remarked on his speed and power as well, so it may have been more obvious to the judges watching up close.

Still, there is room for difference of opinion in each of the components, although SS tends to be the most clear cut, so you can have good reasons for thinking Chen was better in more areas and the judges could have good reasons for thinking Aaron was better and you could both be "right" according to your own understandings of the criteria.

 

[apgold]

I'm happy with Adam's win - it's not like he won by a huge margin, just a point or so. I'm a fan of his and I think it's great he's won his first title at 26 years old. I doubt he'll be able to repeat it next year.

I haven't been able to see the performances yet but it's clear that the judges are rewarding all around skating vs. the ability to land quads. This is a heated topic with the men being viewed weaker internationally but I'm happy the World team is going to be Adam, Max and Nathan. It will probably be Max and Nathan who will be able to get the points needed to keep the 3 spots for the men b/c they will land their quads.

 

[andyjo24]

If this were an international competition, the results would have been:

1) Nathan Chen
SP: ~86 FP: ~180 Total:266
2) Max Aaron:
SP: ~87 FP:~ 173 Total:260
3) Adam Rippon:
SP: ~81 FP: ~167 Total:248

The total opposite of what happened at Nationals..... Only Nathan was given the right scores. Everyone else was inflated a lot.