Who is your favorite USA lady and who do you think will come out on top this season?!

[ChrisH]

I also just saw comments on Youtube from two skaters who skate at Caroline's rink, who are saying that not only has she gotten her 3S back, but that she's working on 3S-3R.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMkN-b5zO4I

Maybe Caroline decided that it's not worth spending another summer trying to fix the flutz (like last summer) with potentially little result, and it's better to focus her energy on getting the 3S back, repeating the 3R, and yes, why not a second 3-3?

No further comments about her 3S-3R have been posted since, though. For now, I'll only take that to mean that her 3S is solid.

As for what might be, her consistency is so amazing that a 3S-3R is easier for her than a 3A and perhaps even a true 3Lz. I wonder if the mechanics of the 3S makes the 3S-3R easier than the 2A-3R. Caroline might be able to carry more angular momentum out of a 3S. And perhaps she has gained a bit more power during the off-season ...

 

[Sllippery]

Caroline might be able to carry more angular momentum out of a 3S. And perhaps she has gained a bit more power during the off-season ...

I've heard that she has grown dramatically and developed her jumping skills as well as her footwork.
Now, her hight: more than 5.3 ft or 5.4 ft? (I don't remember exactly).

With her very original artistic skills, she should grab a silver or a bronze medal at the World Champoinships in LA, her home town, as she gains power.
At least, she will be #1 US Ladies, I guess.

 

[feraina]

I wonder if the mechanics of the 3S makes the 3S-3R easier than the 2A-3R. Caroline might be able to carry more angular momentum out of a 3S. And perhaps she has gained a bit more power during the off-season ...

Well, her 2A is so slow on take-off that she comes out of it with hardly any flow, it'd be very hard to pull off a 3R from there. (I wish she'd get a jumps specialist coach to work on her 2A take-off, not to mention the 3Lz.)

As for the 3S, it was the first triple that she learned, so it's interesting that it's the triple that she has had the most trouble with. Same with Mao, she learned it very young (both landed it first at 8, I believe), at one point even practicing the 4S, and yet she struggles with it now. Anyway, if Caroline can get the 3S consistent, that'd be amazing. But 3S-3R... Both jumps tend to be downgraded when she's under pressure, I worry how stringing them together would fare in a competition.

I really hope that she earns one of the spots to Worlds. I'm not daring to think about anything beyond that yet.

 

[antmanb]

Well, her 2A is so slow on take-off that she comes out of it with hardly any flow, it'd be very hard to pull off a 3R from there. (I wish she'd get a jumps specialist coach to work on her 2A take-off, not to mention the 3Lz.)

Really? I thought most of the youtube videos i'd seen of Zhang had her doing a spiral into 2A with the landing turned into a spiral - she seemed to have good flow out of the jump.

Ant

 

[fairly4]

thank you for all your responses.
I just want you to think that cheating can and still happens.
Also I just want you to remember that you want the cheating to happen for your favorite skaters--such as Rachel Flatt, Irina, Mirai, Mao, Yu-Na, Yukari, Joannie, Evgyeny, Alexi Yagudin, Sasha, Ashley Wagner, Kimberly Meissner, Alexi Gilles, Tara, Sarah and so forth.
I am just pointing out they barely cheated for Michelle -but is constantly cheating for all the others.
You people make my day. Please keep thinking.

 

[mskater93]

I again do not understand where the "cheating" comment comes from, but then I guess that to each their own...

 

[feraina]

From fairly4's last comment, I'm guessing that by "cheating" he/she really means that something like (the judges) "being generous." We all know that judging in figure skating is highly subjective, and judges (and tech panels) can choose to be more generous toward one skater versus another. Maybe fairly4 meant that judges have not been especially generous toward Caroline and Michelle whenever there was ambiguity. (I'm not saying that I personally agree with fairly4, or not, I'm just trying to interpret what he/she's saying.)

 

[vlaurend]

Well, her 2A is so slow on take-off that she comes out of it with hardly any flow, it'd be very hard to pull off a 3R from there. (I wish she'd get a jumps specialist coach to work on her 2A take-off, not to mention the 3Lz.)

As for the 3S, it was the first triple that she learned, so it's interesting that it's the triple that she has had the most trouble with. Same with Mao, she learned it very young (both landed it first at 8, I believe), at one point even practicing the 4S, and yet she struggles with it now. Anyway, if Caroline can get the 3S consistent, that'd be amazing. But 3S-3R... Both jumps tend to be downgraded when she's under pressure, I worry how stringing them together would fare in a competition.

I really hope that she earns one of the spots to Worlds. I'm not daring to think about anything beyond that yet.

I'm going to guess the reason the 3S isn't Caroline's best triple is that she can't really wind up with her shoulders on the takeoff edge like she does on all of her other triples. The extreme counter-rotation of the shoulders before takeoff makes her snap back like a rubber band and rotate faster in the air.

And yes, her 2A entrance edge comes almost to a complete stop before she takes off. It looked like she was starting to work on that this summer but she apparently wasn't able to fix it. No speed going in means no speed on the landing edge and a wimpy landing edge work for a 3Lo entry.

From fairly4's last comment, I'm guessing that by "cheating" he/she really means that something like (the judges) "being generous." We all know that judging in figure skating is highly subjective, and judges (and tech panels) can choose to be more generous toward one skater versus another. Maybe fairly4 meant that judges have not been especially generous toward Caroline and Michelle whenever there was ambiguity. (I'm not saying that I personally agree with fairly4, or not, I'm just trying to interpret what he/she's saying.)

That's what I understood as well. Of course judges can be expected to be somewhat biased towards the skaters from their own country or region, but that's exactly why they use judges from different countries in international competitions.
In international competitions, they are also required to make every effort to ensure that the 3 technical specialists are from different countries so they don't conspire to call in favor of a particular skater.
As far as U.S. Nationals, if there is bias, it will generally be because they want to boost the skater with the best performance record so that skater is guaranteed a spot on the world team (and that is not because that skater is of a particular race, but because they think she will place best in international competition and ensure more spots for the U.S. for the following season).
I think the more you learn about the IJS rules, the easier it is to see why certain skaters end up with higher scores than others, based solely on their skating.
By the way, if anyone thinks they were biased toward caucasian skaters in last year's Grand Prix events, they must not have noticed Ashley Wagner's race because they showed her no mercy! Personally, though, I think the bias--if any--is against skaters who are new on the international scene, or at least new at the Senior level. I do believe skaters who are more established get a little more benefit of the doubt from the judges. Then again, they are also more experienced and may have learned better what to do and what not to do.

 

[gkelly]

As far as U.S. Nationals, if there is bias, it will generally be because they want to boost the skater with the best performance record so that skater is guaranteed a spot on the world team (and that is not because that skater is of a particular race, but because they think she will place best in international competition and ensure more spots for the U.S. for the following season).

And see how that worked out for Meissner last year. They didn't hold her up, but they put her on the team anyway.

 

[Jaana]

And see how that worked out for Meissner last year. They didn't hold her up, but they put her on the team anyway.

Wasn´t she in the team, because some skaters placed before her at the Nationals were according the rules too young to participate in Worlds?

 

[kittyjake5]

I think Kimmie placed seventh (?) at Nationals. Mirai, Rachel and Caroline were too young. I believe Katrina Hacker (sp) placed fifth or sixth but they choose to send Kimmie to Worlds instead of Katrina Hacker.

 

[Tonichelle]

Wasn´t she in the team, because some skaters placed before her at the Nationals were according the rules too young to participate in Worlds?

Some, but not all... Katrina Hacker is old enough (IIRC) and she should have been given the chance before Meissner based on placement

but the USFSA compromised. Katrina went to 4CC to get some international experience and Meissner went to worlds.

 

[ChrisH]

I've heard that she has grown dramatically and developed her jumping skills as well as her footwork.
Now, her hight: more than 5.3 ft or 5.4 ft? (I don't remember exactly).

5.2 ft in August. Mao, Miki, Yu-Na, and Kimmie are 5.3 ft or 5.4 ft.

With her very original artistic skills, she should grab a silver or a bronze medal at the World Champoinships in LA, her home town, as she gains power.
At least, she will be #1 US Ladies, I guess.

Well, Caroline's performances at Golden West and reports of her doing 3S-3Rs in practice are promising.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The way I've been indoctrinated into the selection of the who goes to the Worlds/Olys. The skater who places first a the previous Nats will go definitely whoever its. The other two skaters are at the discretion of the USFS.

The question would be is the USFS capable of selecting the other two?

 

[museksk8r]

The way I've been indoctrinated into the selection of the who goes to the Worlds/Olys. The skater who places first a the previous Nats will go definitely whoever its.

Unless you're Nicole Bobek. :scowl::no::banging:

 

[Mafke]

Since I don't especially care for the ladies discipline anymore in the days of extremely flexible pixies .... I haven't weighed in.
But neutral no longer (still apathetic but not neutral) I've decided I hope the championship is won by a young women (not a girl) and preferably one that everyone's written off; Meissner, Hughes, Liang or Czisny would suit me fine.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Since I don't especially care for the ladies discipline anymore in the days of extremely flexible pixies .... I haven't weighed in.
But neutral no longer (still apathetic but not neutral) I've decided I hope the championship is won by a young women (not a girl) and preferably one that everyone's written off; Meissner, Hughes, Liang or Czisny would suit me fine.

YES YES YES! I'd love for that to be the top 4 in any order (well, I want Kimmie in first, but any order after that). No more toddlers, please!

 

[Lissy]

YES YES YES! I'd love for that to be the top 4 in any order (well, I want Kimmie in first, but any order after that). No more toddlers, please!

You are officially my favorite person! I love Kimmie and I am sick to death of most of the people that placed ahead of her at nationals.

 

[feraina]

YES YES YES! I'd love for that to be the top 4 in any order (well, I want Kimmie in first, but any order after that). No more toddlers, please!

Well, the good news for AwesomeIce and Mafke (and like-minded fans) is that little girls grow up, too. Ashley is 17, Rachael is 16, and Caroline & Mirai are 15! Don't forget that Kimmie won Worlds at 16, and National's at 17. It seems like only yesterday we were talking about Caroline & Mirai the wunderkids at 13, Rachael only slightly older at 14, and Ashley at tender 15. And it was only last season Caroline was talking about being intimidated by the "big girls" (at SA) who looked like they were about to jump over her head, and now she's just about the same size as the rest of them. How time flies!

Nor are these growing U.S. teens' spotlights likely to be taken away from them by even younger kids in the near future -- the new up-and-coming U.S. juniors aren't making as big a splash, and anyway are the same age or older.

I'm going to guess the reason the 3S isn't Caroline's best triple is that she can't really wind up with her shoulders on the takeoff edge like she does on all of her other triples. The extreme counter-rotation of the shoulders before takeoff makes her snap back like a rubber band and rotate faster in the air.

That is a good point, and that is perhaps also why she also has trouble with the 2A (slow take-off) and 3T (frequent downgrades).

I've always had the sneaking suspicion that Caroline's extreme winde-up positions on the 3F/3Z/3R are related to her being extremely flexible. Now I have more concrete reasons for believing so. I'm an Argentine tango dancer, and in tango (and probably also in some other forms of dancing), the best technique for generating angular momentum (e.g. for fast turns) is by winding up your spine to the limit and releasing it. It actually doesn't depend much on how flexible you are (i.e. how much you can twist in absolute terms) but rather on how close you manage to twist to the maximal limit. So a lot of men with relatively little flexibility in this regard can actually generate very fast turns with what seems to be very little effort to the eye. My partner and I have been working a lot on this technique recently.

The same thing is probably happening in skating jumps. Because Caroline is so flexible, for her to generate enough angular moment to land the triples, she has to wind up physically to a greater degree than most people. Her body is like a spring with very low tension, such that she has to press on the spring a lot to get a good rebound.

So getting more muscular would help with Caroline in at least two different ways for the jumps: one is that she can jump higher and therefore won't need as much angular momentum, the other is that it'll increase the tension in the spring (that makes the spring a little stiffer and her spin positions less impressive, but it'll make jumps happen with less wind-up and maybe the spins faster).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Since I don't especially care for the ladies discipline anymore in the days of extremely flexible pixies .... I haven't weighed in.
But neutral no longer (still apathetic but not neutral) I've decided I hope the championship is won by a young women (not a girl) and preferably one that everyone's written off; Meissner, Hughes, Liang or Czisny would suit me fine.

I have to agree with you in part anyway. I also find the Ladies Division less than sportslike. It doesn't excite me to see the ladies take to the ice for the warm-ups. They all do the same things year after year Spiral this way; spiral that way. flutzing and lipping to make sure they can rotate 3 turns in the air. laybacks, camels to sits. I blame a lot of this on the CoP, and I'm just an ole nasty man.