Why does Caroline Zhang bore some people?

[Mathman]

Fans like you are another reason that I dislike Zhang...

? You dislike a skater because of something a fan says on the Internet?

 

[AwesomeIce]

? You dislike a skater because of something a fan says on the Internet?

I dislike Caroline's skating for being boring, but her overzealous, "OMG YOU ARE A HATER!!!!!" fans don't make me any more inclined to be a fan of her. I don't dislike any skater simply because they have rude and obsessive fans, but if I'm not already a fan of a skater, crazy people like that don't help the case any. Zhang's fans, IMO, are a big turn-off.

 

[demarinis5]

I
Oh, and demarinis5, I never said I hated her skating, so don't put words in my mouth, okay? Just because you adore her doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't find her completely entralling HATES her skating. Fans like you are another reason that I dislike Zhang, you all get way too offended if people don't fall to their knees and worship her. Caroline has good points to her skating, her spin and spiral positions are outstanding. It just isn't enough to make me a fan. Doesn't mean I'm hating on anyone/anything.

How do you know what type of fan I am and you did say you hate her skating. Grow up.

 

[AwesomeIce]

How do you know what type of fan I am and you did say you hate her skating. Grow up.

Okay so I didn't mean that I hate her skating, it just reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bores me. What I hate is her fans telling me that she isn't boring and that there must be something wrong with me because I personally don't love her. WHy does that bother you so much? Are you her mother? Is there a law against being bored by Zhang's boring skating? This is a thread about why people find her skating boring. Why do you read it if you are offended by *gasp* people saying that they find her boring? Maybe you should grow up. And tell Caroline that you are sorry because now I will never, ever be a fan because I don't want to be associated with any group that you are a part of.

 

[oleada]

? You dislike a skater because of something a fan says on the Internet?

I can get that. Honestly, when a skater is overly hyped on skating message boards, I do let it get to me and it tends to affect negatively how I feel about a skater. If a poster I dislike is crazy mad about a skater, and posts about them excessively, it bugs me. For example, when Mao was still and up-and-comer, there all these posts on how she was the be-all and end all of skating. It took me a while to warm up to Mao because of this but now she's my favorite eligible skater.

I realize it's not other people's problems but my own, but, I wanted to maybe explain what AwesomeIce is thinking. Is that helpful, Mathman?

To everyone who thinks Caroline is boring ........................

................her Ave Maria LP at Nationals had people bored to tears.

Yes, well, not everybody likes the same skaters. It happens.

 

[AwesomeIce]

I can get that. Honestly, when a skater is overly hyped on skating message boards, I do let it get to me and it tends to affect negatively how I feel about a skater. If a poster I dislike is crazy mad about a skater, and posts about them excessively, it bugs me. For example, when Mao was still and up-and-comer, there all these posts on how she was the be-all and end all of skating. It took me a while to warm up to Mao because of this but now she's my favorite eligible skater.

I realize it's not other people's problems but my own, but, I wanted to maybe explain what AwesomeIce is thinking. Is that helpful, Mathman?



Yes, well, not everybody likes the same skaters. It happens.

Thanks, that's pretty much how I feel.

 

[demarinis5]

Okay so I didn't mean that I hate her skating, it just reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally bores me. What I hate is her fans telling me that she isn't boring and that there must be something wrong with me because I personally don't love her. WHy does that bother you so much? Are you her mother? Is there a law against being bored by Zhang's boring skating? This is a thread about why people find her skating boring. Why do you read it if you are offended by *gasp* people saying that they find her boring? Maybe you should grow up. And tell Caroline that you are sorry because now I will never, ever be a fan because I don't want to be associated with any group that you are a part of.

Your post leaves me speechless. I do request that you not spew any more of your venom my way.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Your post leaves me speechless. I do request that you not spew any more of your venom my way.

Then I request that you just ignore my posts if you cannot accept that I dislike watching Caroline skate. Because you aren't going to make me change my mind, and you aren't going to make me like her any better. Accept that and everything will be just fine.

 

[demarinis5]

Then I request that you just ignore my posts if you cannot accept that I dislike watching Caroline skate. Because you aren't going to make me change my mind, and you aren't going to make me like her any better. Accept that and everything will be just fine.

Hey you can like or dislike anyone you want and believe it or not I am not the least bit interested in changing your mind, That is not the issue here. You are the one who is doing the flaming not me, I responded to your misguided generalization of fans of Caroline. If that upsets you so be it.....runs to the
ignore feature.

 

[R.D.]

Huh? Isn't it an issue of taste, what kind of skating folks prefer? Why is this a topic? Don't tell me another board fan feud is heating up.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Hey you can like or dislike anyone you want and believe it or not I am not the least bit interested in changing your mind, That is not the issue here. You are the one who is doing the flaming not me, I responded to your misguided generalization of fans of Caroline. If that upsets you so be it.....runs to the
ignore feature.

I wasn't flaming anyone or anything until people got in my face because I don't adore Miss Thang.

 

[jimreuter]

Well, I enjoy watching Caroline very much, and have for years. I feel blessed that I live in the LA area and get to see Caroline perform in practice often, as well as other skaters that train here. She has good and not so good areas, like every skater that ever lived. The good points are extremely good, and well deserve the standing Os she has received.

I don't know how the upcoming competitive season will play out, but I hope Caroline (and Mirai, and Kimmie, and Alissa, and Laney, and Tenile, and Bebe, and everyone else) skate really well and make it a very memorable competitive season. I just hope everyone is injury free, and we get to see their best efforts.

 

[dutchherder]

Everybody play nice or you have to leave the sandbox.

 

[gocaroline]

You can tell that I love Caroline's skating from my user name. I was struck by her practice clip before her Junior Grand Prix Mexico win on youtube. She was just amazing. Then I was at SA last year for the Lady's short. She got huge audience standing ovation I don't think all the audience there are just her fan, as we supported each and every skater there, including Kimmie, Emily, Miki and others. And I remember that Kimmie did poorly and lots of people felt so sorry for her but still gave her lots of claps to show the support.

But it's totally normal that some people don't appreciate her skating like me. People do have different taste. And I do agree sometimes things that irrelavant to the skater effect the skater. In my case, it's last year's Grand Prix Final, I felt that judges just unfairly score Carolina Kostner very high on her PCS score despite that she did poorly last year. That did turned me off Though I realized later it's not her fault either.

Anyway, skating is a very much subject sports. I just hope every skater do their best this season and be judged fairly based on their performance. But again, maybe this is too much to ask

 

[Kathleen]

I find her boring/unenjoyable for several reasons. For starters, she is very slow across the ice (though I hear she has improved on that this year, but I haven't seen her skate yet so who knows...). I especially dislike the way she goes from really slow to practically not moving at all when she launches into her double axel. It makes her look very unsure of herself. Her stroking isn't great, it doesn't look good and it definitely doens't give her much speed of power. She does have nice spins, but I think that she over does it on the flexibility moves. We watched Sasha Cohen doing all the flexi moves for several years, so it has lost its novelty a bit. Caroline tends to skate to pieces of music that are themselves rather boring and uninspiring, so that doesn't help anything. And I don't see any real relation between her and the music, ever. Her face tends to be very expressionless most of the time. She is graceful, but that does not equal musical. A lot of her jump technique is just bad: the mule kick on flip, the dreadful flutz, the extreme wind-up on the loop, the screeching halt before the axel. None of this makes me really want to watch her. It obviously is stuff that she can work on and hopefully improve upon, but it explains why she has not been able to draw me into her performances and make me a fan.

ETA: Also, in interviews she tends to come across and a bit of a know-it-all and sometimes a bit annoying, which also doesn't improve my opinion of her. That, though, I will attribute to her being a teenager, and hopefully she will outgrow that.

This sums it up for me! Well said.

 

[silver.blades]

You refer to ballet and a more natural, modern style of movement. My critique of ballet has always been it's rigidity of the upper body. Yes, it teaches good posture, but that same posture can lead to rigidity of movement in skating. Do you think ballet training off ice and ballet styled movements in programs should be thrown out the window?

Ballet is a specilized style. Some people enjoy watching it, and variety is always good because it helps people to appreciate different styles and ways of moving; I'm just not a fan. So I don't think that ballet style programs should be done away with, however it would be nice to see more variety in women's skating.
As to off ice ballet training, I'm not sure where I stand on that. Speaking strictly from a dance perspective, without the ballet, you become severly limited in the movements avalible to you because ballet is the basis of dance technique. Once you have the basic technique, you can build anything from there. Skating however has a different technique base, so I don't think that ballet is as important as people make it out to be. Some points of ballet work against skating technique (mainly the empasis on turnout, which is the opposite of what is needed for jumps), however, points like posture, stretch and control and part of both schools. I think dance training is benificial for skaters, but not nessisarily ballet, and definatly not strictly ballet.

 

[vlaurend]

I certainly hope nobody here thinks anyone is trying to change anyone else's opinion. I think the whole point of the thread was to try to *understand* why someone might have a different opinion, not to change that opinion. That's a good thing, IMO.

Personally, I think Caroline is interesting to watch because she has some truly outstanding abilities juxtaposed with some equally unique quirks. The outstanding abilities are, of course, her spiral positions and her spins (her layback was the first element in IJS history to ever get a level 4 with +3 GOE's from every judge). The unique quirks include the slow 2A entry, the takeoff position on the flip, the big windup on the loop, flip and lutz, and of course, the flutz.

While these jump entries may break the spell of the otherwise pretty skating, I personally find it fascinating to watch her unconventional jump technique because in spite of those takeoffs, she never fails to stay straight in the air and land backwards on one foot. I can't imagine anyone else going into a flip from that takeoff position and still landing it, much less following it with a triple toe. The thing I have always marveled at (and I've been seeing her in practice and competition since she was 9 or 10) is that she seems to have this incredibly reliable axis that she is able to rotate on; I don't know if I've ever seen her tilted in the air on a jump or traveling on a spin. As a skater, I find that extraordinary.

Having watched her at Golden West and in practice recently, I have to agree that she covers the ice a little faster than last year, probably because she has grown a few inches. And, if anything, the flutz is not as bad as it used to be. The flip and loop takeoffs are still very wound up--possibly even more than before--but her 3F+3T is incredibly consistent so somehow it must be working for her.

As for personality, yes, she has always been very precocious and has even come across as a little bratty at times. However, I have to say I've seen a maturity spurt in the past year that at least matches her growth spurt. She's actually a very nice, down-to-earth kid and, while everyone is free to have different opinions on her skating (I hated Ave Maria, too, LOL!), she is just quirky enough that I don't think her personality will ever be considered boring.

 

[feraina]

vlaurend, thanks for your thoughtful and informative post!

While these jump entries may break the spell of the otherwise pretty skating, I personally find it fascinating to watch her unconventional jump technique because in spite of those takeoffs, she never fails to stay straight in the air and land backwards on one foot.

Yes, I marvel at that, too! The only time I ever saw her tilted mid-air was on the 3F in the LP at National's in 2007, which she fell on. She landed it in the exhibition afterwards (very gutsy after the fall), but that was also tilted. I was really happy to see that by the following season, her 3F was straight as an arrow again; I had been worried that maybe a growth spurt or changes in technique were going to result in chronic problems with the jump.

As for personality, yes, she has always been very precocious and has even come across as a little bratty at times.

Well, she really doesn't know me at all, but still she sends nice and bubbly replies to my fan mail. I really think she's just undergoing a self-conscious stage of teenage-hood. And while she seems to be following the Michelle Kwan mantra of distracting herself with as little publicity as possible (no website, no interviews before major competitions, and this year, no summer interviews), and being very prim and proper in the few interviews she does grant, I think underneath she is actually a much more sociable and outgoing person than Michelle. As she gets older and gets more comfortable/confident about herself, I think her extroverted nature will eventually come out more in her skating and interviews.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if within 3-5 years, she skates for instance a very "sexy" program full of personality like Miki's Carmen last season!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4AVPUpVBbU
The same Miki who at 15 was an doubtlessly talented and lovely skater, but also just another run-of-the-mill ice princess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMvYFuwXIj4
What amazing transformation over five years!

(In contrast, much as I adore Michelle Kwan's skating, I can't recall a single program that was "sexy" as opposed to beautiful or elegant or emotional or even passionate. Nothing wrong with not trying to be "sexy", but to do that takes a certain amount of extroversion and diva-esque quality, which I felt like the very private Ms. Kwan didn't really have in her personality, but which I think Caroline could have in her).

So anyway, the point is not to forget that Caroline is only 15 and not yet having substantial input on her program choices. I have the sense that the day will come soon when she will stand out as a skater with sparkling personality on ice.

 

[Kwanford Wife]

She has wonderful spin positions (probably one of the best laybacks in the history of figure skating), beautiful carriage, eye popping flexibility. So, why are some posters bored when they watch her?

My apologies to those who've said the same thing, but I didn't have time to read through all the pages...

Personally, I think Caroline is absolutly adorable - however, she doesn't have that x-factor to her skating and her jumps are soo very tiny. As for the flexiblt y - for me personally - its so over at this point... it might be simple pushback to all the tiny terrors who are more known for their ability to put their bodies in impossible positions but their overall skating isn't nearly as remarkable... plus, under CoP spinning has become simply fugly so it distracts from skaters, like Caroline, who are awesome spinners.

Having said that, I do believe that she's probably in a better position long term than some of her main US rivals in that she will most likely get better with time and I'm not sure about the rest.

FROM FERINA'S ABOVE QUOTE:
(In contrast, much as I adore Michelle Kwan's skating, I can't recall a single program that was "sexy" as opposed to beautiful or elegant or emotional or even passionate. Nothing wrong with not trying to be "sexy", but to do that takes a certain amount of extroversion and diva-esque quality, which I felt like the very private Ms. Kwan didn't really have in her personality, but which I think Caroline could have in her). Couldn't figure out how to multiquote & edit at same time...

While I technically agree with the above, I had to mention that my husband always found Michelle Kwan's appeal to be that she was extremely sexy espcially her The Feeling Begins program in '04 at Nationals - he was all like "whoa..." His postion being that real sexy (ala Michelle & Joanine) is different from skating sexy (ala Tanith)

 

[KeineZeite]

Here's an ice network interview with Caroline and Mirai.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6dW6Ty_r4A&feature=related

Thanks for the link. Both girls are adorable.
I am so surprised to see Caroline's hair soooo long.
Caroline is now 5"2.

I heard that her footwork and jumps are developed dramatically.
I am looking forward to seeing her in the Skate Canada.