World Team Trophy

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No different, IMO, than some skaters being "barred" from competing at Worlds every year. Depending on how many spots their countries have earned for each discipline, plenty of skaters get left out.

That's a bit different if skaters qualify based on their merit in a field of 28. Participation in WTT is dependent not on your individual performance but being from a well-rounded nation. Only representatives from USA, China, Japan, Canada, Russia, France and Italy have ever skated at the WTT. Skaters like Yu Na Kim, Javier Fernandez, and Denis Ten would not be able to compete in this (not ever, likely), so it makes no sense to treat it like the other ISU championships. Kim can still compete at 4CC and Fernandez can compete at Euros in spite of there not being any prominent Korean ice dance team or prominent Spanish pairs team.

 

[carriecmu0503]

That's a bit different if skaters qualify based on their merit in a field of 28. Participation in WTT is dependent not on your individual performance but being from a well-rounded nation. Only representatives from USA, China, Japan, Canada, Russia, France and Italy have ever skated at the WTT. Skaters like Yu Na Kim, Javier Fernandez, and Denis Ten would not be able to compete in this (not ever, likely), so it makes no sense to treat it like the other ISU championships. Kim can still compete at 4CC and Fernandez can compete at Euros in spite of there not being any prominent Korean ice dance team or prominent Spanish pairs team.

If the team event becomes a permanent ISU championship, countries will work to develop skaters in all 4 disciplines so they can compete in the team event. How is that a bad thing? It grows the sport. Keeping the team event from being a championship event because some skaters come from a country without skaters in all events holds the sport back. It would be like saying we should kill the team event in gymnastics because some elite gymnasts come from a country without enough gymnasts to fill a team.

Synchro most definitely should be an Olympic event.

 

[Mathman]

But I'd still keep the WTT. Just not as an ISU championship.

What difference does it make what you call it?

 

[TMC]

If the team event becomes a permanent ISU championship, countries will work to develop skaters in all 4 disciplines so they can compete in the team event. How is that a bad thing? It grows the sport. Keeping the team event from being a championship event because some skaters come from a country without skaters in all events holds the sport back. It would be like saying we should kill the team event in gymnastics because some elite gymnasts come from a country without enough gymnasts to fill a team.

Synchro most definitely should be an Olympic event.

Agree on both counts. There are many countries where there's little interest in skating because they don't have world-class skaters, or have only one or two in one discipline once in a blue moon. That means less kids getting into the sport -> less likely for the inevitable talent to emerge -> less money from the government and other sponsors to support this talent -> even less top skaters -> even less interest.

Skating's a very expensive hobby, and about a 1000 times more expensive as a competitive sport of choice for the average kid. More competitions with more participants means more interest in the sport and mo' money, especially if those participants are even somewhat successful. That could only be good for the sport

Perhaps it could be 10 countries (or 20 so Finland could enter ), and the spots could be determined by something like most top ten ISU placements overall. In that case a country could have, say, 4 ladies and 2 dance teams in the top ten, and they could pull their not-so-successful compatriot male & pairs team's weight into the comp.


I would also love to see synchro in the olys - because it is SO difficult and SO awesome to watch and these athletes totally deserve to take part. And I'm convinced that synchro in the olys would help grow the reputation of and interest in FS overall -> again more cash thrown at the sport.

I'm not familiar with the reasons they give for not including synchro, apart from reading somewhere that it would be too expensive to accommodate the teams? I'd like to say BS to that - what about the Hockey teams then?

They could also argue that there wouldn't be enough countries participating and the same countries would always end up in the top three. This might well happen, and it is the same argument they use to try to get women's hockey out of the games. BS to that, too. Like we saw this year, there is a growing period where the results are predictable, but at some point other teams are going to catch up and challenge the old masters. Case in point: Finland's embarrassing performance (apart from Noora Räty of course ) and the Swiss phenoms barely out of primary school winning the bronze in Sochi. As for it being a sport for ladies - are mixed teams allowed?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What difference does it make what you call it?

ISU = international skating union. It's hardly an "international championship" when only 6 different countries and 12 skaters in each discipline are represented. I know it can seem like semantics, but an ISU Championship is prestigious and I don't think an individual win (and certainly not a team win) at World Team Trophy can even compare.

A win at the GPF >>>>> A win at the WTT

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If the team event becomes a permanent ISU championship, countries will work to develop skaters in all 4 disciplines so they can compete in the team event. How is that a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing. But let's be real. There's no way that South Korea, Kazakhstan or Spain is going to end up qualifying for the WTT any time soon, let alone have a chance at actually being competitive from a team standpoint.

The WTT is a fun event and so was the team event in Sochi, but it simply emphasizes the wide discrepancy between the top countries and then everyone else in terms of well-rounded disciplines. Your very participation is contingent not on how well YOU are as a skater, but how well your country is. Kostantin Menshov or Gabrielle Daleman can compete, but Javier Fernandez and Yu Na Kim could not.

If anything it de-legitimizes countries that might actually have 1 or 2 disciplines with excellent skaters, and I can assure you that countries aren't going to be developing their skating programs just to qualify for the WTT and play for 5th at best.

 

[carriecmu0503]

It's not a bad thing. But let's be real. There's no way that South Korea, Kazakhstan or Spain is going to end up qualifying for the WTT any time soon, let alone have a chance at actually being competitive from a team standpoint.

The WTT is a fun event and so was the team event in Sochi, but it simply emphasizes the wide discrepancy between the top countries and then everyone else in terms of well-rounded disciplines. Your very participation is contingent not on how well YOU are as a skater, but how well your country is. Kostantin Menshov or Gabrielle Daleman can compete, but Javier Fernandez and Yu Na Kim could not.

If anything it de-legitimizes countries that might actually have 1 or 2 disciplines with excellent skaters, and I can assure you that countries aren't going to be developing their skating programs just to qualify for the WTT and play for 5th at best.

They won't train skaters for the WTT as it stands. But if it's an official event included in the Worlds and Olympics, they will. Athletes will want the additional chances to compete for a medal. Some will be happy the team event gives them a chance to compete at all. There were several skaters in the team event who weren't in the individual
At the Olympics. It's not always about winning or medaling. Many are very happy to have the chance to be a part of the competition.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

They won't train skaters for the WTT as it stands. But if it's an official event included in the Worlds and Olympics, they will. Athletes will want the additional chances to compete for a medal. Some will be happy the team event gives them a chance to compete at all. There were several skaters in the team event who weren't in the individual
At the Olympics. It's not always about winning or medaling. Many are very happy to have the chance to be a part of the competition.

The point is, if I'm a strong singles skater from South Korea (like Kim) I'm screwed no matter how well I do if my country is never able to produce a top pairs/ice dance team, even if they invest in one.

If anything, they need a "Miscellaneous" to compete in WTT made up of top skaters from countries that rank outside of the top 10 (or top 6). That would actually make it more interesting and then any skater could legitimately be motivated to compete in WTT because they wouldn't have poor disciplines in their own country holding them back from competing.

 

[ice coverage]

... If anything it de-legitimizes countries that might actually have 1 or 2 disciplines with excellent skaters, and I can assure you that countries aren't going to be developing their skating programs just to qualify for the WTT and play for 5th at best.

Japan won WTT bronze in 2013 with NO pair entry and with the Reeds as its dancers.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2013/TEC001RS.HTM​

 

[Mista Ekko]

Japan won WTT bronze in 2013 with NO pair entry and with the Reeds as its dancers.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2013/TEC001RS.HTM​

True, But then again, Russia lost a skater in the Men's event, And WTT is based in Japan

And i was under the impression that it IS every year apart from Olympic ones :\

 

[ice coverage]

... And i was under the impression that it IS every year apart from Olympic ones :\

Repeating the explanation from page 1 of this thread:

...

No WTT this year. The next one is scheduled for 2015. WTT was supposed to be held every other year: 2009, 2011, 2013, 2015 ...

The tragic tsunami in Japan in 2011 required cancellation of the event that year; it was rescheduled for 2012.

 

[karne]

Japan won WTT bronze in 2013 with NO pair entry and with the Reeds as its dancers.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wtt2013/TEC001RS.HTM​

That's because WTT is designed by Japan for Japan to be held in Japan, and as a result, in order to minimize Japan's known weakness, the format of the team event is TWO men, TWO ladies, ONE dance team and ONE pairs team. Therefore, a country with stronger men and ladies over pairs and dance (i.e., Japan) could do much better than they would in the proper team event format.

 

[ice coverage]

That's because WTT is designed by Japan for Japan to be held in Japan, and as a result, in order to minimize Japan's known weakness, the format of the team event is TWO men, TWO ladies, ONE dance team and ONE pairs team. Therefore, a country with stronger men and ladies over pairs and dance (i.e., Japan) could do much better than they would in the proper team event format.

Exactly the point I was making to CSG (who said otherwise):

A country other than Japan with strong men and ladies (but weak pairs and dance) also could be competitive for a WTT medal. :yes:​

 

[hyperinflation]

That's because WTT is designed by Japan for Japan to be held in Japan, and as a result, in order to minimize Japan's known weakness, the format of the team event is TWO men, TWO ladies, ONE dance team and ONE pairs team. Therefore, a country with stronger men and ladies over pairs and dance (i.e., Japan) could do much better than they would in the proper team event format.

ding ding ding

the prize money for wtt is crazy (compared to other competitions) too, right?

 

[karne]

Exactly the point I was making to CSG (who said otherwise):

A country other than Japan with strong men and ladies (but weak pairs and dance) also could be competitive for a WTT medal. :yes:​

Yes, but that is not the same as the team event, which is 1-1-1-1 (and as a result, Japan were nowhere near the medals) and where a team with no pair/dance couple would be at a severe disadvantage.

 

[Mathman]

ding ding ding

the prize money for wtt is crazy (compared to other competitions) too, right?

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

 

[ice coverage]

Yes, but that is not the same as the team event, which is 1-1-1-1 (and as a result, Japan were nowhere near the medals) and where a team with no pair/dance couple would be at a severe disadvantage.

I was responding to CSG's comments that seemed to be specifically about WTT -- and not about the Olympic team event.

 

[hyperinflation]

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

he who speaks in maxims can sound wise