2014 Cup of China Mens Free Skate 11/08

[elif]

WOW Hanyu still got second highest TES of the night. Sorry guys but If you can't beat ''5 fall guy'' on technical score, don't moan on component score.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The only things Nam still lacks are power and speed. But then he got the big jumps done anyway. He has good choreo, good performance and interpretation, transitions, etc. Yeah, I think he deserves a higher PCS.

Where is the customary quad bonus others get in their PCS?

 

[Mathman]

It is fair in the sense that all competitors play by the same rules. But the rules make a mockery of the sport. A competitor should get credit only for a completed element, not for a valiant failure.

But he's not responsable for the rules.And under this set of rules he had the 2nd highest TES of the night
It's useless to talk about what should get credit and what not.

All true, all true. Don't mind me. I am just becoming an old grouch at what figure skating has become. Nobody will pay to watch such performances, or even bother to turn on the television to watch for free.

 

[Vanshilar]

Wait, people are actually trying to defend Hanyu's score in here? Are you kidding?

That performance deserved 70 in PCS at most. Dornbush easily should have placed over him.

This was the worst Men's competition ever at this level of event.

I'm a bit confused here. Admittedly I haven't kept up with the debates about PCS (since I'm still trying to get the hang of the TES side of things) like what values are appropriate -- but the falls aside, I felt Hanyu had deep edges and good body lines (i.e. arm movements etc.) throughout. My wife was engaged throughout Hanyu's skate but got bored during Kovtun's skate and felt the latter's performance was a "jump to jump" program. Shouldn't this be reflected in PCS, or do falls decrease the PCS? Looking at the PCS categories (skating skills, transition/linking footwork, performance/execution, choreography/composition, and interpretation) it seems to me like falls would impact the performance/execution score the most, but not as much on the others.

Again, I haven't looked at PCS, so maybe I just need to do some forum searches to read up on it, but I thought it was measuring stuff that's not directly related to falls on jumps (which are measured by the points for the related jump). Other than the jumps, did Hanyu perform that badly? From what I saw of this event (basically the latter parts of men and ladies) it seems like this competition was basically one big splatfest.

I think points-wise I have more issues with how (fully-rotated) fallen quads will still score significantly better than triples, and thus skaters are incentivized to take more of a devil-may-care attitude about falling on quads as opposed to "settling" for clean triples of the same jumps. For Hanyu it seems like this strategy paid off as both his quads were judged fully-rotated so he got the full base value points for them. But that's a fault of the system itself and not of particular skaters.

 

[Skater Boy]

His technical elements I'm not debating. Under the rules, his TES of 75 points made sense. And the judges even took certain things into account like his ChSq getting 0's... I half-expected them to have given him +2's across the board. Some outliers, like the -2's on his falls, but that didn't really affect the final result. The issue was the judging of his PCS... in both his SP and his LP. One judge in his SP gave him 9.50/9.50/9.75/9.50/9.75 for a program with no quad, no combo, and a lutz error. That's a near perfect score for a program that had major technical problems. For his SP, my PCS scores would have been: 8.75/8.25/8.50/9.00/8.50.

In this FS, IMO, his PCS should have been lower than Dornbush's, and certainly lower than Kovtun. The only category he should have been on par/higher was SS. The falls were detrimental to the choreography, the transitions, the interpretation, and especially the performance/execution (8.75's for PE for a program with 5 falls is unheard of). And I don't blame Hanyu, I blame the judges for failing to incorporate this into their PCS. For the FS, my PCS would have been: 8.50/7.50/7.25/8.25/8.00

Most skaters need perfect skates to even clear 80 points PCS - Nguyen didn't even clear 70 points PCS when he was by far the cleanest of the men (other than Ge who had no quad)... so for somebody to go out there and fall 5 times and clear 84 points PCS must be really disheartening.

Well stated even though I suppose you are Canadian and Nguyen is Canadian I wondered the same thing. Nam skates young but he puts in a full clean program. Part of the problem might be also being too hars on Dornbush, Kovtun and Nguyen If you took off points Hanyu and added some to the other skaters Hanyu might have been off the podium (he had Hanuated scores in both short and long). Judges just say no to Hanuation!

 

[Meoima]

All true, all true. Don't mind me. I am just becoming an old grouch at what figure skating has become. Nobody will pay to watch such performances, or even bother to turn on the television to watch for free.

On a shallow note, this kind of drama is exactly the drama that will attract more viewers. Just image if it were Jason Brown and Max Aaron collided into each other, bloodied but still skated.

 

[Violet Bliss]

All true, all true. Don't mind me. I am just becoming an old grouch at what figure skating has become. Nobody will pay to watch such performances, or even bother to turn on the television to watch for free.

I bet the collision will be one of the most widely watched figure skating event by the general public in recent history. Not as attention worthy as The Wack (outside Japan) but will be played by the media for morbid curiosity nonetheless.

 

[StitchMonkey]

On a shallow note, this kind of drama is exactly the drama that will attract more viewers. Just image if it were Jason Brown and Max Aaron collided into each other, bloodied but still skated.

Somehow I think Kori would physically drag a kicking and screaming Jason by the pony tail to the hospital if she had to before she would let him compete. Tom Z. . . well yeah, he'd likely skate.


Then again an unplanned trip to the hospital would also add drama.

 

[Mathman]

I see mostly everyone disagrees with the PCS. Not so much with his TES and the final placement

I strongly disagree with the TES and the final placement. Of course we are sympathetic towards the skater because of the trauma of his injury. And we marvel that he could skate at all. But the fact remains that, on the tech side, he undertook 8 jumping passes and was successful on only three. How does this rate big points on the "Total Element" side of the equation?

 

[el henry]

Somehow I think Kori would physically drag a kicking and screaming Jason by the pony tail to the hospital if she had to before she would let him compete. Tom Z. . . well yeah, he'd likely skate.


Then again an unplanned trip to the hospital would also add drama.

Completely OT, StitchMonkey, but that was one of my first thoughts. Kori would stand rinkside with an army battalion before she would let Jason skate in that condition. Which would also make good press.

I'm sorry that Ricky's good skate gets lost in this debacle...

 

[Blades of Passion]

It was sluggish, but def not half hearted.

Look at the extensions, the finishing of the movements, and the expression. It was definitely half-hearted. The ending pose tells it all. Not his fault considering the circumstance but it is what it is.

I see mostly everyone disagrees with the PCS. Not so much with his TES and the final placement

Hanyu's TES were too high as well. He should have had 0's across the board for his ChSq.

If the scoring system were better, aka you don't get so many points for making mistakes on jumps, then Hanyu definitely should have been off the podium altogether. As it stands he deserved 3rd at best.

 

[Mathman]

On a shallow note, this kind of drama is exactly the drama that will attract more viewers.

You know, I actually thought of that, but was afraid to bring it up. If Hanyu had withdrawn. or if he hadn't medalled, he wouldn't be in the Grand Prix Final. That would have cost a bunch of people some big bucks.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Completely OT, StitchMonkey, but that was one of my first thoughts. Kori would stand rinkside with an army battalion before she would let Jason skate in that condition. Which would also make good press.

I'm sorry that Ricky's good skate gets lost in this debacle...

I would not say it got lost. Maybe a bit under the radar, which is not all bad. Funny to think he has about the same chance of making the GPF as Max. I am certainly following him with interest.

 

[Meoima]

You know, I actually thought of that, but was afraid to bring it up. If Hanyu had withdrawn. or if he hadn't medalled, he wouldn't be in the Grand Prix Final. That would have cost a bunch of people some big bucks.

Mah, if further medical examination prevented these kids from competing, ya know, if the doctors say no. You think "some people" still try to push these kids out to the ice?
I asked you but you seemed to avoid. What if it were Jason Brown and Max Aaron instead? Just imagine if only 1 of them still skated, I bet there would be many interesting deadlines from U.S media. Viewers rates should be high, I guess.
I hate this event so much. But we all know American love drama. And you said no one will ever turn the tv on.
On a shallow note Tonya/Nancy attracted so many interests from U.s viewers from the past. It's not that surprising.

 

[Meoima]

Sorry, but are you trying to say it was a good thing that Yuzuru and Yan crashed to each other???? If this kind of thing is what will attract viewers as you say, I guess all of us should start praying that this happens in every competition from now on...
Can people think before they speak??? What a thing to say, geez...

I was being sarcastic towards Mathman's comments that no one will ever turn the TV on to watch this kind of performance.

Just image if Hanyu were American, I bet this drama would attract many viewers from U.S. Because well, we all remember that Tonya/Nancy infamous incident. Americans love drama.

Some people think FS lost its appeal in US because of the incomprehensible rules and scoring system. But I think it's just simple, stars and drama.

 

[Mathman]

Mah, if further medical examination prevented these kids from competing, ya know, if the doctors say no. You think "some people" still try to push these kids out to the ice?

Yes.

I asked you but you seemed to avoid. What if it were Jason Brown and Max Aaron instead? Just imagine if only 1 of them still skated, I bet there would be many interesting deadlines from U.S media. Viewers rates should be high, I guess.

I hate this event so much. But we all know American love drama. And you said no one will ever turn the tv on.
On a shallow note Tonya/Nancy attracted so many interests from U.s viewers from the past. It's not that surprising.

Yes, of course people will be interested in seeing skaters collide. Maybe not as much fun as watching fatal crashes in race car driving, though.

My comment was about the performances, not about the surrounding drama. Setting the accident aside, I don't think that people will be much interested in watching the kind of performances that we saw in this event.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Yes.
My comment was about the performances, not about the surrounding drama. Setting the accident aside, I don't think that people will be much interested in watching the kind of performances that we saw in this event.

Without the accident which incapacitated two of the best competitors, we would not have seen the kind of performances we did.

 

[Meoima]

Yes, of course people will be interested in seeing skaters collide. Maybe not as much fun as watching fatal crashes in race car driving, though.
My comment was about the performances, not about the surrounding drama. Setting the accident aside, I don't think that people will be much interested in watching the kind of performances that we saw in this event.

Yes, but these particular performances only go along with this particular events. You can't take them apart. Frankly I don't think people would allow the warm-up with too many skaters on ice at the same time ever again if this kind of accident happens at every event.

This drama only goes with this event. The viewers know. They are not stupid to think that these boys can perform well after that kind of collision. And they are not stupid to think that all skating event are like this.

And it happened to 2 top competitors at the event. It's unfortunately but it happened. You think people expect to see the same kind of performance in FS whenever they turn the TV on. Even viewers who have absolutely no interest in FS know these kids have been badly affected by the collison and their performances are no where near what they could do.

You should see the reaction on facebook and other social network. I have seen hundred of new likes on a FS Facebook group just because of this collision. I said it's shallow anyways.

Personally I am devastated by this event.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Maybe they should allow only warm up at warm up, not practices. (That will surely take away a lot of thrills for the fans.)

 

[ice coverage]

Somehow I think Kori would physically drag a kicking and screaming Jason by the pony tail to the hospital if she had to before she would let him compete. Tom Z. . . well yeah, he'd likely skate. ...

Max is a 22-year-old adult, and if he had temporarily lost consciousness, I would like to believe that he would have made his own decision to withdraw. He is a very competitive athlete, but he also is a very intelligent guy.
(Don't want this thread to become a referendum on Tom Z, but I myself would not leap to any assumptions as to what kind of opinion he might have offered to Max.)