Ban on Carolina Kostner Over

[alebi]

Don't worry, I only wanted to say that bartlebooth told everything way better than me!
I understand that when articles and news are only in Italian, and published only in Italy, people can know the things only at the end, ignoring everything else, so it's easy to come to strange ideas and suspects like the one about USA's federation.
I tried to explain that it's a bigger case and not just a Kostner's problem.

Just as a point of interest, and because it is probably highly significant in them wanting this case dealt with now, what is the new rule that will come in on 1st January?

Honestly I don't know, it's a new thing I read only yesterday in the convention's summary. Malagò said

La Procura chiede 4 anni e 3 mesi: sono stato contestato per questa decisione. Lo ritengo ingiusto. Perché quel che dice la WADA è illuminante, fino al 31 dicembre 2014 il regolamento impone questo. Dal 1° gennaio 2015 questo discorso cambierà, in base alle norme approvate nell’ultima Giunta.

Procura (attorney's office? sorry I don't know how to translate) is asking for 4 years and 3 months. I've been contested but I think it's unfair because what WADA says it's the rule till 31 Dec. Then, from 1st Jan things will change, basing on new Council's rules.

Now I'm ignoring if the new Council's rules are from WADA or from CONI/Italian antidoping... He doesn't explain anything else and is, as usual, so ambiguous (it's a strategy to say and not say at the same time)

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Don't worry, I only wanted to say that bartlebooth told everything way better than me!
I understand that when articles and news are only in Italian, and published only in Italy, people can know the things only at the end, ignoring everything else, so it's easy to come to strange ideas and suspects like the one about USA's federation.
I tried to explain that it's a bigger case and not just a Kostner's problem.

That is a major problem. In these days of the internet, it really annoys me that stories that are a pile of rubbish spread like wildfire, but important stories often do not get past national borders. And when they do, we only hear bits of it, not the full story.

That is why I am grateful for this forum. It was the first place I heard about this story, months before it hit the mainstream media. And, thanks to you and bartlebooth, it is the only place where I have heard the full details of the story, from people inside Italy.

So, thank you both again.

And maybe because Carolina is ladin or from South Tirol, so she is an easier target than others.

Sorry for going off topic, but since npavel has brought it up, can I just ask something that I have often wondered? Is there much racism in Italy towards people from the South Tyrol?

CaroLiza_fan

 

[bartlebooth]

T

Sorry for going off topic, but since npavel has brought it up, can I just ask something that I have often wondered? Is there much racism in Italy towards people from the South Tyrol?

CaroLiza_fan

Let's put it that way: many winter athletes in Italy are from South Tyrol (Alpine Skiing, Biathlon, Luge, you name it), and South Tyrol has some administrative privileges, for example in South Tyrol they have bilingual school and multi-lingual (Italian, German and Ladin) road signs and such. Besides, these people have German names and they speak Italian with a German accent,
According to stupid football-obsessed public opinion these people "are not really Italian", they are Austrian, they should speak only Italian, they refuse to sing our national anthem and so on. Kostner has had her share of that crap. In reality, Athletes from South Tyrol are usually very proud of where they come from (their town/valley), because they tend to have a strong sense of local community, but it's not like they refuse the Italian flag and nationality. Kostner, for one, has always considered herself Italian.

 

[alebi]

Sorry for going off topic, but since npavel has brought it up, can I just ask something that I have often wondered? Is there much racism in Italy towards people from the South Tyrol?

CaroLiza_fan

LOL no! Depending on cases people say:

"Alto-atesini aren't Italian, don't even speak Italian" (example when Kostner failed to get an Olympic medal :hopelessness: )

"Kostner is more italian than Giuseppe Rossi" (when Kostner won the Olympic medal )

"I'm alto-atesino not Neapolitan" (when Alex was trying to said he doesn't lie... lol thank you Alex, I'm one of your Neapolitan fan )


"Alto-Adige has too many money's benefits" (because of their autonomy, old story that Regions always bring out when they need more money)

And these subjects can change depending on if you're talking about Sardinia, South Italy, Valle d'Aosta and so on....

LOL so nothing different from any other Country with multicultural background

 

[alebi]

In reality, Athletes from South Tyrol are usually very proud of where they come from (their town/valley), because they tend to have a strong sense of local community

So true! But they aren't the only ones proud of it. Let's say in Italy we don't have a big sense of unity, there's a widespread campanilismo (local rivalry), so that my minuscule town is way better than the one 2 KMs over there

So everyone is proud to represent his land but when an altoatesino remarks it, it sounds strange only because what he's loving has a "German sound".... Obviously it's used only when useful...

 

[npavel]

yes, unfortunatelly South Tirol is often seen as not a real part or Italy and you maybe remind Kostner after winning her first Euros title 2007 singing the Italian item and the President of the Republic appreciated and told something about her speaking more German than Italian? The next time she didn't know how to do and didn't sing along. We often feel like treated as not Italian, in fact we are Italian only since after first World War. And I'm sure if Carolina would be from another region she would be treated in another wise.
I don't find the article I was referring at, but something in the way of this http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2007/02_Febbraio/09/klotz.shtml

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Let's put it that way: many winter athletes in Italy are from South Tyrol (Alpine Skiing, Biathlon, Luge, you name it), and South Tyrol has some administrative privileges, for example in South Tyrol they have bilingual school and multi-lingual (Italian, German and Ladin) road signs and such. Besides, these people have German names and they speak Italian with a German accent,
According to stupid football-obsessed public opinion these people "are not really Italian", they are Austrian, they should speak only Italian, they refuse to sing our national anthem and so on. Kostner has had her share of that crap. In reality, Athletes from South Tyrol are usually very proud of where they come from (their town/valley), because they tend to have a strong sense of local community, but it's not like they refuse the Italian flag and nationality. Kostner, for one, has always considered herself Italian.

Thank you!

Apart from what I learnt in history lessons at school (which was basically limited to it being transferred from Austria to Italy after WW1), the only time I have come across the South Tyrol has been through watching wintersports (in my case ski jumping, nordic combined, figure skating...)

So, I am grateful for this sort of insight. I had heard some of it before (eg. about the autonomy, and that Ladin and German are still the main languages), but other stuff I hadn't (eg. that the multi-lingualism is actually officially encouraged, and the strong sense of community and local ties).

As for football fans, well, you're always better off not listening to them anyway...!

LOL no! Depending on cases people say:

...

And these subjects can change depending on if you're talking about Sardinia, South Italy, Valle d'Aosta and so on....

LOL so nothing different from any other Country with multicultural background

So, pretty much the same as people from Northern Ireland get, then!

The English are quick to claim us when we're winning, and throw us away when we're not!

Come to think of it, everything bartlebooth said could also be said about Northern Ireland! Although, the language situation is far more controversial here...

CaroLiza_fan

 

[alebi]

yes, unfortunatelly South Tirol is often seen as not a real part or Italy and you maybe remind Kostner after winning her first Euros title 2007 singing the Italian item and the President of the Republic appreciated and told something about her speaking more German than Italian? The next time she didn't know how to do and didn't sing along. We often feel like treated as not Italian, in fact we are Italian only since after first World War. And I'm sure if Carolina would be from another region she would be treated in another wise.
I don't find the article I was referring at, but something in the way of this http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2007/02_Febbraio/09/klotz.shtml

It happens in every part of Italy. I'm a terrona (insulting way to point people from South Italy) and have heard everything in my life. And these situations only produce fanaticals like the ones supporting a free South-Tyrol, free Padania, free Sardinia and Corsica etc... Which, honestly, doesn't help to consider those people Italian. Italy is a relative new Country, it has been divided in little states for centuries and this can be seen in our lack of unity (more or less expressed). (on a funny note... it's the reason why I don't understand when people from outside say it's typical italian... AHAHAH what is a typical italian thing? )

But this doesn't deal with Carolina's doping ban. She's not the only one involved (only the most famous) so really it's not the case!

 

[npavel]

sorry for bringing it out, I didn't mean to hurt someone, only to point out my view.
But I'm very sad for the ones to take every possibility to point out Carolinas decision to listen to Alex and say he is not there as the worst lie possible and worth such a punishment. And the ones who pretend to know that she knew Alex were doping and tried to cover him. No way. And who are we to judge her? I really believe that she didn't know and that she had no ground to doubt.

 

[karne]

Sorry, but all this rubbish about the Italian Fed and so on is just clouding the issue.

Here are the relevant facts:

- WADA came knocking on the door looking for Schwazer.

- He asked Carolina to lie and say he wasn't there.

- Carolina was stupid enough to do so.

That is IT! What the corruption is or isn't or whatever is NOT RELEVANT and does NOT change what Carolina did - which was LIE to officials to cover for her boyfriend when every iota of common sense should have told her that lying to doping officials = doping.

 

[jiggs]

Sorry, but all this rubbish about the Italian Fed and so on is just clouding the issue.

Here are the relevant facts:

- WADA came knocking on the door looking for Schwazer.

- He asked Carolina to lie and say he wasn't there.

- Carolina was stupid enough to do so.

That is IT! What the corruption is or isn't or whatever is NOT RELEVANT and does NOT change what Carolina did - which was LIE to officials to cover for her boyfriend when every iota of common sense should have told her that lying to doping officials = doping.

No, that is not ONLY it. Yes, she made a mistake. But this is a question about how she is now treated for it, and the ban suggested on her is way out of line for what she did. She is being scapegoated and made an example. That is wrong, just as she was wrong telling that lie.

In this case, corruption and everything surrounding this case is highly relevant. Her life and career is on the line here after all!!

 

[alebi]

I really believe that she didn't know and that she had no ground to doubt.

I believe it too and in the last article (from Il Fatto) she couldn't say it better. The only thing that I really don't understand (and she regrets) is that she was persuaded to lie to a doping officer. I can understand it was a decision taken in 5 seconds but you, as an athletes, should know that everything related to doping doesn't have to be taken lightly.

But athletes are human and it's difficult to be perfectly prepared in 5 seconds for any unexpected things in your life.

But this is a question about how she is now treated for it, and the ban suggested on her is way out of line for what she did

that's! In fact no one is saying Carolina should not be punished. The problem is how they're punishing her.

 

[Buttercup]

Sorry, but all this rubbish about the Italian Fed and so on is just clouding the issue.

Here are the relevant facts:

- WADA came knocking on the door looking for Schwazer.

- He asked Carolina to lie and say he wasn't there.

- Carolina was stupid enough to do so.

That is IT! What the corruption is or isn't or whatever is NOT RELEVANT and does NOT change what Carolina did - which was LIE to officials to cover for her boyfriend when every iota of common sense should have told her that lying to doping officials = doping.

Have you never made a mistake in your life? Can't you understand how under those circumstances she made a decision to trust him - even if it was the wrong decision - and be a tad less judgmental?

I'd like to thank the Italian posters who've added some context to the reporting so far.

I'm happy to see so much support for Kostner among other skaters. It speaks volumes as to her character and how well-regarded she is.

 

[cruzceleste]

At that time she couldn't know (and honestly no one knew) that Schwazer was already supervised by doping officers. They were already following his travels, that's why the officers went to Obersdorf when Alex gave his availability for controls in Racine.

I was reading that WADA does made the list public, of athletes that are included in the controls. And is bound to let the athlete knows he/she needs to be available for at least 60 minutes any day.

Question: so Carolina is part of "sport police" does this means she takes an oath (sp?) to enforce and respect the law like a normal police?

 

[jiggs]

I was reading that WADA does made the list public, of athletes that are included in the controls. And is bound to let the athlete knows he/she needs to be available for at least 60 minutes any day.

Every athelte needs to state where he/she would be available for the WADA within 60 minutes each and every single day.

On that particular day, Schwazer had stated with the WADA he would be in Racines (Italy), whereas he was with Carolina in Oberstdorf (Germany). The inspectors came to Oberstdorf anways, because I suppose they must have already had him on the radar. Otherwise they would have gone looking for him in Racines.

I suppose Carolina, in that moment when she opened the door, didn't want her boyfriend to get into trouble for being somewhere other than what he'd listed as his whereabouts. She said that in the interview that was published yesterday, and that she told him to go and get tested in Racines right after.

IMO, she was just in a very unlucky position. Had they gone looking for him in Racines in the first place, she would probably not have been involved at all. But it is the way it is.

 

[karne]

Have you never made a mistake in your life? Can't you understand how under those circumstances she made a decision to trust him - even if it was the wrong decision - and be a tad less judgmental?

This is exactly why doping remains such a problem. Because as soon as someone who is popular or well-liked gets in trouble, people come rushing out of the woodwork to say it was a mistake, she's innocent, she shouldn't be in trouble, she shouldn't be persecuted, blah blah blah blah.

FACT: Carolina Kostner is a flipping elite athlete.

FACT: Carolina also puts herself forward as anti-doping and part of this sport police thing.

FACT: the WADA officials came knocking.

FACT: her boyfriend asked her to lie.

FACT: she did.

Her being well-regarded and a strident anti-doping role model and every other blooming thing that's being held up does not matter. What matters is that she KNEW lying to the doping inspectors was wrong and she still did it.

It's like some guy murders another guy and the murderer gets a whole parade of friends and community leaders to say he was a really great guy so it shouldn't matter that he killed someone. Yeesh.

 

[alebi]

I was reading that WADA does made the list public, of athletes that are included in the controls. And is bound to let the athlete knows he/she needs to be available for at least 60 minutes any day.

Question: so Carolina is part of "sport police" does this means she takes an oath (sp?) to enforce and respect the law like a normal police?

Every federations have public lists of athletes for doping controls. These lists only mean that you're an athlete of a certain importance and, inevitably, have to agree with the doping rules.And agree means always give info about where are you, where are you travelling and so on... So that the doping officers can visit and test you by chance.

But the doping agencies also follow some athletes in particular, they obviously don't say the name, because they've received some inputs about bad relationship (Schwazer-Ferrari).

I don't know what Polizia Penitenziaria will do with Carolina, they expressed their support but honestly they have to report this case like Finanzieri did for other athletes (and Carabinieri did for Schwazer). If not, this is questionable.

 

[Buttercup]

Her being well-regarded and a strident anti-doping role model and every other blooming thing that's being held up does not matter. What matters is that she KNEW lying to the doping inspectors was wrong and she still did it.

It's like some guy murders another guy and the murderer gets a whole parade of friends and community leaders to say he was a really great guy so it shouldn't matter that he killed someone. Yeesh.

Which just shows that people can even be fooled by criminals who go on to do horrible things. But covering for your boyfriend once is so not on the same level that your comparison is ridiculous. She didn't dope herself, she wasn't involved in an coverup, she didn't enable his behavior long-term. She made a mistake - once. It's a small mistake in the scheme of things. Her fellow skaters seem to think that she is a person of character and deserving of their admiration. That's worth pointing out.

Also, I'd appreciate posts without capitalized FACTS and flipping and blooming and whatnot. Just because people disagree with your interpretation of the situation doesn't mean you need to be obnoxious in discussing the matter.

 

[alebi]

Because as soon as someone who is popular or well-liked gets in trouble, people come rushing out of the woodwork to say it was a mistake, she's innocent, she shouldn't be in trouble, she shouldn't be persecuted, blah blah blah blah.

I don't agree. I've "lived" so many doping cases that what I've learnt is that people are only waiting for the new big case to say "athletes aren't clean, they are all doped" etc... while doping cases are so different one from another. But people only read: NAME + DOPING and come to conclusion.

 

[alebi]

I only have a "legal" doubt about this situation and I hope someone can clarify me. Schwazer gave his availability in Racines while the officers came to Obersdorf (because he was carefully controlled). But the availability was in Racines! So.... are there margins to consider the whole event a forcing by WADA? Is there a legal issue that athletes can wave to ensure their privacy?

They're punishing Kostner because, they say, her lie covered an attempt to avoid doping test, but it's not true because she forced Schwazer to go soon to Racines and have a test, because it was there where they had to test him. And, in fact, it happened then.

All I know is that when an officer come and don't find the athlete, it's an avoided control. And after the third avoided control you're suspended. So, why the WADA didn't follow the procedure and sent an officer to Obersdorf?