What if Michelle Had Stuck with Frank?

[WeakAnkles]

Well at the time I was super pissed and sad that Michelle didn't win Gold. I've always felt she was #2 in the LP and, going strictly by 6.0 ruling, she would have deserved to win overall because her SP was more than 2 placements better than Sarah's.

Interestingly, watching their SP performances again 4 years later (and more times after that, jeez it's been so long since 2002 already) after I had much more concrete skating knowledge and experience, both SP's were worse. Kwan's Flip was underrotated and she left out a step from her footwork, and while it was already known that both of Hughes' triples were flawed, I noticed her choreography and interpretation of the program was monotone. I think Sasha should have won that SP and Hughes should have been lower than 4th - Julia Sebestyen's monster Lutz + Flip and nice performance were deserving of putting her up there and Fumie Suguri had the better Ava Maria.

But you see you are far more knowledgeable about the technical aspects of skaters than the average "I watch skating at the Olympics" fan. I just really remember having many conversations along the lines of, "Well isn't it nice that the person who had the best performance actually won?" Because the Pairs competition really was the Watergate of skating for many many casual fans. Just sayin'...

 

[midorichen]

Interestingly, watching their SP performances again 4 years later (and more times after that, jeez it's been so long since 2002 already) after I had much more concrete skating knowledge and experience, both SP's were worse. Kwan's Flip was underrotated and she left out a step from her footwork, and while it was already known that both of Hughes' triples were flawed, I noticed her choreography and interpretation of the program was monotone. I think Sasha should have won that SP and Hughes should have been lower than 4th - Julia Sebestyen's monster Lutz + Flip and nice performance were deserving of putting her up there and Fumie Suguri had the better Ava Maria.

And Irina Slutskaya? (Who deserved the OGM in my eyes, as I think she should have been 1st in the SP, with Sarah around 6th, and 2nd in the FS, behind Sarah.) As for Sasha, I thought her SP was lovely, but she was too young and inexperienced for her FS music - and she made mistakes.

 

[Blades of Passion]

But you see you are far more knowledgeable about the technical aspects of skaters than the average "I watch skating at the Olympics" fan. I just really remember having many conversations along the lines of, "Well isn't it nice that the person who had the best performance actually won?" Because the Pairs competition really was the Watergate of skating for many many casual fans. Just sayin'...

Oh yes, of course! In the end this sport needs to be judged such that a casual observer can at least have a decent understanding of it too. If you fall or make glaring mistakes, you should be losing a LOT of points. The scoring system since 2011 has been absolutely horrid in terms of punishing concrete mistakes. The pairs scandal of 2002 would have happened again under the current scoring. Nothing has changed, but programs have gotten far worse for the most part. Everyone loses. Ick.

And Irina Slutskaya? (Who deserved the OGM in my eyes)

LOL, Irina. She should have been off the podium. Worst SP choreography + interpretation of the top 7 and a very tepid LP that actually had the lowest attempted technical content of all the top 4 ladies - the Americans all at least went for 7 Triples, and landed at least 6 of them. Irina played it safe and couldn't even skate clean. When your strength is your jumps and your speed, and both of those things are gone, there's nothing to hold you up.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Worst SP choreography + interpretation of the top 7 and a very tepid LP that actually had the lowest attempted technical content of all the top 4 ladies - the Americans all at least went for 7 Triples, and landed at least 6 of them.

That's an awfully biased way of looking at it. How is going for 7 and falling on one somehow better than going for 6? Michelle didn't do 6 clean triples either, as she two-footed her opening 3T combo.

 

[Mathman]

Such knowledgable and esteemed people have always said it was purely Inmans third that cost kwan gold.

Actually, I don't think that anyone knowledgable about the ISU judging system that was in force at the time said that Inman's vote cost Kwan the win. This was an "urban legend" originated by the New York Times reporter covering the event. He was used to the "majority of ordinals system" which was used in the United States and he was unfamiliar with the OBO system that the ISU had instituted for intentional competitions including the Olympics, in the wake of the bizarre results of 1997 Europeans.

People then started quoting the Times article in error (especially Kwan fans who wanted someone to be mad at ).

Here is a good article by Sandra Loosemore that explains in detail how the two systems work.

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/obo/obo-analysis.shtml

 

[Blades of Passion]

That's an awfully biased way of looking at it. How is going for 7 and falling on one somehow better than going for 6?

No it isn't biased. The point is that Irina didn't have much more technical content in the end than either of Kwan or Cohen, and her presentation was worse than both of them. Therefore, she should have been placed lower. Using 6.0 scoring I'd have the LP's as:

1. Hughes - 5.8/5.9
2. Kwan - 5.6/5.8
3. Cohen - 5.6/5.7
4. Slutskaya - 5.7/5.6

 

[Mathman]

I remember the "water cooler convos" after that event. At least in the US, the attitude was, "Maybe she's not the best skater in the world, but Sarah Hughes was definitely the best that night." And after the Pairs debacle, there was a feeling of relief that at least one person won fair and square.

For conspiracy theorists, it seemed obvious that the pairs scandal coat Michelle the gold medal. The judges were all set to give it to her (the competition was in the United States after all), and they placed her over Slutskaya in the short program to make their intensions clear. But then after the pairs thing, they didn't dare give Michelle the title with a fall.

Fortunately, they had a Plan B. By holding Sarah up to fourth in the SP, they could still give the prize to an American after she skated so well in the LP, sending everyone home happy after all.

In Sochi they wanted Lipnitskaia, but -- exercising foresight -- they kept Sotnikova in the wings just in case.

 

[gmyers]

Actually, I don't think that anyone knowledgable about the ISU judging system that was in force at the time said that Inman's vote cost Kwan the win. This was an "urban legend" originated by the New York Times reporter covering the event. He was used to the "majority of ordinals system" which was used in the United States and he was unfamiliar with the OBO system that the ISU had instituted for intentional competitions including the Olympics, in the wake of the bizarre results of 1997 Europeans.

People then started quoting the Times article in error (especially Kwan fans who wanted someone to be mad at ).

Here is a good article by Sandra Loosemore that explains in detail how the two systems work.

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/obo/obo-analysis.shtml

The word I was really looking for and couldn't think of at that moment was reputable. You are right reputable people can wrongly take a mistake from a prestigious source and it be "fact" so even authors of official Olympic books use it.

 

[midorichen]

No it isn't biased. The point is that Irina didn't have much more technical content in the end than either of Kwan or Cohen, and her presentation was worse than both of them. Therefore, she should have been placed lower.

So you're saying that your opinion isn't subjectivity - it's fact. Oh, OK. Thanks for letting us know.

 

[Blades of Passion]

So you're saying that your opinion isn't subjectivity - it's fact.

No? I'm saying that is my reasoning. All opinions are at least slightly subjective by definition, but we all must work to be as objective as possible and I do believe my opinion is extremely well informed and objective. I've not seen you state any reasoning? Just a simple statement that "Slutskaya deserved Gold", not any discussion of why her technical merit or programs or presentation were deserving of being placed ahead. You did ask me what I thought about Irina, heh.

 

[Mathman]

Michelle and Frank at the ISI awards banquet Wednesday. (Thanks to Teach23 at the MK Forum.)

https://www.facebook.com/IceSkating...17409556698/10152899310221699/?type=3&theater

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

No it isn't biased. The point is that Irina didn't have much more technical content in the end than either of Kwan or Cohen, and her presentation was worse than both of them.

Slutskaya skated miles better than Sasha in 2002, they were in completely different leagues as far as speed and edge use. Falling was a big deal under 6.0 and I don't think Kwan with a fall and a two-foot landing should only be 0.1 behind Slutskaya. I can't think of any technical elements that Kwan did better than Irina.

 

[Sandpiper]

I don't always (or even usually ) agree with Blades of Passion, but I do agree that Michelle deserved 2nd in the LP and possibly the win under strict 6.0 scoring. Though she did have the fall, I found the rest of her skate stronger than Irina's (who was safe, slow, and kinda boring).

However, I completely disagree that Irina should've been off the podium or that she had the worst SP choreography. I actually thought she deserved to win the SP; that was one of her best programs, and all the elements (jumps, spins, arguably even steps) were stronger than Michelle's on the night.

The real question, for me, is what place Sarah really deserved in the SP, and whether Michelle could've taken the gold with only second place in both programs. But taken as a whole, I think Sarah skated well enough across two programs to win, if we put aside 6.0 technicalities.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I can't think of any technical elements that Kwan did better than Irina.

Have you ever heard of a spiral before? Her second Lutz was a little better than Slutskaya's as well (and late in the program). Michelle also had a better sit spin.

I don't think Kwan with a fall and a two-foot landing should only be 0.1 behind Slutskaya

It wasn't a bad two-foot and, remember, she had an extra triple in the program. That extra triple makes up for the small mistake, the little added difficulty of Slutskaya's salchow combination, and Slutskaya's better 3Loop. The only significant difference in their technical merit was that Kwan fell on her Flip and Slutskaya landed one poorly. A very weak jump vs a fall on a jump is only a 0.1 difference in tech merit.

Slutskaya skated miles better than Sasha in 2002, they were in completely different leagues as far as speed and edge use.

No they weren't. Slutskaya wasn't particularly fast in that performance and there was absolutely nothing special she did with her edges. Better edges than Cohen, sure, but there's no big difference there. Cohen skated TO the music and displayed superior body lines, superior outward presentation (notice how much Slutskaya was looking down in that performance; the choreography/interpretation did not call for it), and a more cohesive choreographic package.

 

[iluvtodd]

Michelle said afterward, "I didn't get the fellowship, but I got the fellow."

this quote!

 

[Mathman]

this quote!

The way I heard the story, when the candidates for the White House fellowships gathered for their interviews they decided to pair off and do practice interviews on each other. Michelle and her future husband found that they shared a sense of humor, laughed at each other's jokes, were impressed by each other's earnestness in public service, let's go out for coffee, and the rest is history.

Back to Mr. Carroll and the reason why Michelle decided to strike out on her own, I assume that there are many factors but the only thing Michelle ever said publicly was, "I wanted to take control of my own skating."

 

[Celine]

White House fellows program process. Very very tough.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Have you ever heard of a spiral before? Her second Lutz was a little better than Slutskaya's as well (and late in the program). Michelle also had a better sit spin.

It wasn't a bad two-foot and, remember, she had an extra triple in the program. That extra triple makes up for the small mistake, the little added difficulty of Slutskaya's salchow combination, and Slutskaya's better 3Loop. The only significant difference in their technical merit was that Kwan fell on her Flip and Slutskaya landed one poorly. A very weak jump vs a fall on a jump is only a 0.1 difference in tech merit.

No I hadn't heard of a spiral before. I also wasn't aware that the only important feature of a spiral was great extension. Thanks.

Assuming you are right, that's still only 3 out of about 10 or 11 technical elements that Michelle did better. Irina's "very weak jump" was landed on one foot, and that "very weak jump" would be ratified unlike either Michelle's 3F or the "small mistake" on the 3T. A "not bad" two foot is still a two foot.

 

[fallingsk8er]

If Michelle had stayed with Frank, we might not have been able to see her best programs ever: Spartacus and Aranjuez.

 

[LiamForeman]

I do think that Kwan needed a technical coach for SLC. Her flip was wonky all season, and she was doing crazy things like attempting 3flutz-3loop. TSL had an in depth interview with Frank Carroll and because he has class he didn't fall into those questions. It was rumored he expected a certain percentage of her earnings that season if she won. Oops. Kween failed. She was nothing but a Kwincess as her "Fields of Bronze" showed.

I am not the kind of person who feels you always HAVE to have a coach by the boards to clap you on. But come on, the OLYMPICS??? *** was she thinking? The very worst time to have your timing off on a jump and not have a coach to smooth it out in a matter of seconds..... She missed the flip in the SP too, very UR'd and though she stood up it was sub-par.

The SP showed that the gold was hers. Only hers, and she screwed it up. Poor dear.