2015-16 SOV Tables for Singles and Pairs released | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2015-16 SOV Tables for Singles and Pairs released

Then being the devil's advocate, what about just having the set number of elements / jumps that have to be in a programme

Meaning everyone has to do the exact same elements, and if the required elements happen to be things you're not as good at as harder elements that aren't required, tough luck?

Or have a specific number of jump elements, spin elements, step sequences, that are required, and you get to choose what you skills you use to fill those slots? That's more or less what's already the case.

and if you don't do the judge 'properly' i.e. rotate it and have the correct edges and land it you get 0 for that element. If you do both those things you get BV + or - GOE.

Well, if they are on the wrong edge, they haven't actually done that jump.

What if you're in the process of rocking/skidding off of the correct edge at the same time that you're in the process of leaving the ice?

Where do you draw the line between doing the jump badly and not doing it at all?

Should doing a jump so badly that it doesn't count give/take away the exact same points as standing still or doing simple strokes and not attempting a jump at all? How about falling on a difficult jump vs. falling on an easy jump or other element vs. falling on a crossover?

Again, where and how to draw the line?

There are rules for when an attempt at an element counts to block a box and when not, some of which have changed over the years.

How should the rules balance reward for attempting difficult elements with penalties for failure?

There doesn't seem to be a simple way to achieve all goals that will account for all situations and please all stakeholders. So should the compromises aim to balance out different priorities? Or ignore the needs of one side entirely and cater to the opposite extreme?

I think things would make more sense though if scores were properly communicated in competition. Why, can't the reasons for scores in a basic way be communicated to the audience (and to TV audience thereby) before moving on? Casual fans are not going to check later for the scoring. In fact, they won't even know when, how or where to check. They just go away mystified. And even TV commentators seem to have limited understanding.

This is not so much about ISU rules as about media communication. But the ISU could help by offering or mandating methods of reporting scores to spectators in the arena that give more information in real time, and encouraging media outlets to adopt those reporting methods in broadcasts of the events.

The scoreticker in the upper left corner of the videos for some events the last few years could be a beginning. This could also be done on the Jumbotron in arenas that have them, although most spectators on site would rather watch the ice below them than the video above.

Maybe flash the score for each element as soon as the element and enough judges' GOEs are entered into the computer. Probably there wouldn't be room to include the code and the base value and the GOE and the running total so far on the screen. So choose choose any one or two of the above. What's been chosen so far is the running total -- would something like "3T 5.2" (because it had somewhat positive GOE) be more useful than seeing a total increase by 5.2?

After the program, and after the scores are finalized, show a list of elements, base values, GOEs, and totals on the screen for several seconds while the announcer reads out only the total element score.

Then show a list of the averages for the five separate program components, for the several seconds it takes for the announcer to read the total program component score.

Of course TV, and even in-arena video, would rather show the skater's human reaction to the scores than the list of numbers, and many fans would prefer to watch skaters' faces than lists of numbers at that time as well. Maybe a split screen would work.

Then announce the total segment score, the ranking in the free program only if this is a free skate, then the total combined score and the final ranking. This could be as is now, with the scores on the bottom of the screen with video on the skater's face.

There wouldn't be time to analyze all the broken down scores in real time, but it would be clearer where the totals are coming from. New fans would know what they could go look up online if they're interested in analyzing. Avid fans who already like to consult protocols afterward would have some of their questions answered right away if they look for the score(s) they're interested as soon as the lists of scores are presented on screen.

And then, as now, if there are confusing or potentially controversial results, commentators can be free to break down for viewers where each skater gained or lost important points.
 
It doesn't have to be on screen. Just some simple facts about reasons for scoring that flash up on the jumbotron for the audience there. Then a competent commentator can impart some of it to the TV audience: "So the reasons for that slighter lower tech score than we expected seem to be a not fully rotated second jump- that was the triple axel and the wrong edge on the triple lutz at the end. Hmm, and they really did well with the PCS and their interpretation of the music seems to be a big factor in that. They got 9s. Now let's see if Asada can beat that..." Then they could even have a: "If you want to know more about the score for that performance, visit the website at ..."

ETA: and in the meantime someone had posted similar. Yeah, more communication is really needed.

I did say it was devil's advocate on the having 0 for jumps. Lol I really think any scoring, if explained better, would be a step up though.
 
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My impression is that some casual fans come to interest in skating from a sporting perspective and others from an artistic performance perspective. They tend to have very different expectations of what's "best," what they think should be rewarded, depending what kind of activity they perceive skating as…

I think there is an even starker division. In sports, do we reward a gallant try or do we reward successful accomplishment? (Ask Lebron James. ;) )

In the futile debate, "is figure skating a sport?" the detractors make the point that skating lacks a clear notion what the athlete is trying to accomplish and an objective standard for whether that criterion is met or not. The ball goes in the basket or it does not. The pole vaulter either clears the bar or he doesn't.

When a "casual sports fan" says, "Hey, that guy's not so great, he fell down twice," I don't see how it helps our cause to dismiss that fan by saying, "well, if you weren't so ignorant you would know that he tried something really hard and came close."
 
I edited my post above to reflect the big post that was written whilst I worded mine.

One other thing, in my harsh suggestion, I did mean a certain number of elements like now, not the same for all.
 
Oh, and I also meant that scoring facts would flash up after the skate as the tech panel review and the scores are announced, not during the program distractingly.
 
I've brought it up before in a previous topic -- bring back the concept of Skate Radio, for ISU events!!! :biggrin:
 
For Skate America, I think the chances of IN streaming Skate Radio audio are pretty decent.

IIRC, USFS has offered Skate Radio in the past to Skate America ticketholders (as well as to U.S. Nats ticketholders).

And I don't think that 2015 U.S. Nats was the first time that IceNetwork streamed the Skate Radio audio for the benefit of fans not on site at the venue.
(Although I don't remember whether IN previously had paired the SR audio with the judging screens.)
 
I would still have been pretty annoyed, but the overall consensus seems to be that if you're a totally popular skater it's perfectly okay to UR :rolleye:, so I imagine the outrage would not have been as big overall. In fact, I don't think there was ENOUGH outrage over that result.

Well, most people could plainly see the unusual circumstances and they don't actually hate Hanyu so perhaps that's why it seems so to you...

And if you wouldn't mind pointing me to that general consensus about URs and popular skaters? I've missed it, though I've been reading so many discussions about it.
 
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And I don't think that 2015 U.S. Nats was the first time that IceNetwork streamed the Skate Radio audio for the benefit of fans not on site at the venue.
(Although I don't remember whether IN previously had paired the SR audio with the judging screens.)

I'm really only interested in the judging screens. I had Skate Radio muted most of the time and just wanted to monitor results in real-time -- primarily just a second monitor to view what's happening with the tech panel and judging from beginning to end. Listening to other audio on top of the skater's live program would be too distracting for me.
 
I'm really only interested in the judging screens. I had Skate Radio muted most of the time and just wanted to monitor results in real-time -- primarily just a second monitor to view what's happening with the tech panel and judging from beginning to end. Listening to other audio on top of the skater's live program would be too distracting for me.


I would be happy with just the screen as well. It also is helpful for people like me trying to learn more being able to look and see what is going to happen.


I don't mind Johnny and Tara, prefer Eurosports over them but i would take Skate Radio commentary over either of them easily. If Icenetwork were to give us the choice of what commentary (or no commentary) that would be an added value that might be worth it for many of us.
 
Well, that 2014 Cup of China result was definitely outrageous. Hanyu should have been off the podium after that disaster, he got 2nd place. Then there was Misha Ge down in 5th place who should have actually won the competition. It will forever remain proof of how poor the judging has been, that Misha Ge scored 10 points higher in the SP a week or two later at Cup of Russia, with pretty much exactly the same performance he gave at Cup of China.
 
I'm compiling some data I'll post later regarding falls and quads since 2003 and I noticed this "Interruption in excess" deduction. Is that still a thing?
 
I'm compiling some data I'll post later regarding falls and quads since 2003 and I noticed this "Interruption in excess" deduction. Is that still a thing?

Jeremy Abbott got it at Sochii after his fall into the wall. So if it is gone it was very recent.
 

[url]http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Men_SP_Scores.pdf

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Page 8 if it is helpful. Might want to double check you were not looking at the Team SP results. . . that's the type of mistake i would make.

To be honest, I don't think I ever scrolled down that far because I wasn't interested in anyone down there. Haha.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I analyzed protocols of all major ISU competitions (Grand Prix events, GPF, Europeans, Four Continents, Worlds, and Olympics) from 2004-2005 season to present and, in case anyone was wondering/didn't know, there's effectively no change in the number/frequency of competitors that fall at least 1 time in the men's discipline. From my "research" I found that the running average of the percentage of skaters falling at least once is about 30% in the short program and 46% in the free skate.

For the short program: the highest percentage of skaters falling at least once between 2004 and 2015 in the selected competitions was about 67% at the 2008 GPF, followed by 63% at the 2013 Rostelecom Cup, 58% at 2007 Skate Canada, and 56% at 2012 Cup of China. Conversely, the 2004 GPF and 2010 GPF had no falls. The next minima was around 10% for 2014 Cup of China, 2011 Cup of China, 2008 NHK, 2008 Skate Canada, 2007 NHK, and 2006 NHK.

For the free skate, the highest percentage was 82% at the 2014 Cup of China, followed by 75% at the 2013 Rostelecom Cup and 2011 Cup of China, and after that 73% at the 2004 Trophée Eric Bompard. Only 11% of men fell at the 2011 NHK Trophy, followed closely by 14% at 2014 Worlds, and then around 20% for 2010 Europeans, 2008 Cup of China, and 2006 Cup of China.


Regarding the frequency of men winning an event after falling at least once: the most times a winner fell was when Patrick fell 4 times at 2010 Skate Canada, followed after that when Stéphane fell 3 times at 2006 Skate Canada. There appears to be a slight increase in the frequency of men falling 2 times at these events and winning. However, from 2009 Four Continents to 2010 Worlds, no winner fell (so, during the 2009-1010 season, no winner of these events had fallen).

Note, this is only falls, not other "major" mistakes (under-rotations, step-outs, etc.), and only takes into account falls per the ISU definition (or rather what the technical panel at that event deemed as a "fall"). I'll post more data and graphs later...
 
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Thanks for all the number crunching MAXSwagg!! One thing I would be curious to know (if you continue to crunch numbers further) is if falls have not increased overall in the men's field, what about falls among the top three medalists of events? There's definitely a perception that the number of falls have increased (which you've already disproved) but perhaps we have that perception because more of the medalists are falling than they used to?

ETA: I've attempted to start doing this, but there are many protocol sheets I can't find because the ISU page tells me "Bad Gateway." :(
 
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