2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[StitchMonkey]

Sigh... i wonder what type of teas you guys are drinking in the US of A, clearly too much Jason Brown extra Kool-Aids.

You do know you missed a perfect opprotunity to make a Kori Ade joke here right?

I do however want to make sure you realize that Jason was skating as a senior the entire Riverdance season - he was not on the JGP with that. In fact even before his breakout performance he was still the second highest USA guy on the senior grand prix that season.

If you keep calling Jason a junior to be insulting, people are likely to keep taking your comments with a grain of salt.

 

[OS]

Heh Actually i did think it as I type, but i respect her too much to take cheap shot

I refer to him as a Junior for the 2014 season only when he was transitioning from Junior to Senior rank and not even made Senior worlds yet, so yes I think it is fair to consider him a junior skater then. He obvious isn't since WC 2014. In any case, these are indeed the most generous PCS ever given to a young skater making their senior debut, surely even Jason fans can at least agree with that.

 

[Mrs. P]

Heh Actually i did think it as I type, but i respect her too much to take cheap shot

I refer to him as a Junior for the 2014 season only when he was transitioning from Junior to Senior rank and not even made Senior worlds yet, so yes I think it is fair to consider him a junior skater then. He obvious isn't since WC 2014. In any case, these are indeed the most generous PCS ever given to a young skater making their senior debut, surely even Jason fans can at least agree with that.

That wasn't his senior debut nationally. His debut was in 2011, when he was 16. For the record his PCS then I think was 70 something.

And I think it's reasonable to call one a senior when one competes in senior competitions. Is it that much of a stretch?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

How can a crass program like Juke program without quads beat Parisienne Walkways and Elegy? Think about it. Come on! How can anyone not think it is wrong and outrageous? Never mind the quadless factor. People also missed out the most obvious points behind my complaints, is not that ONLY the score is too inflated, but it created this huge artificial gap to rest of the US men. For example in the 2014 FS skate alone, is Jason really 13.4 PCS better than Max, 9.82 better than Josh, 14.82 better than Ricki, 12.4 better than Adam in just FS alone? They could have aced their quads and go clean and likely still wouldn't be able to catch up with quadless Jason.

With all due respect, Juke wasn't crass. It was Brown trying to present a different side of himself. He shouldn't pander to programs that "work" just to win, he should choose what he wants to perform. He could be doing the opposite - i.e. Max - and attempting to portray a more artistic side by choosing pieces of music that are "classical", even though they don't suit his style.

I'm sure Jason could do a PW or Elegy if he wanted to, but why do something that other people are doing? Fernandez's Black Betty was hugely unconventional and served him well last year.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That wasn't his senior debut nationally. His debut was in 2011, when he was 16. For the record his PCS then I think was 70 something.

And I think it's reasonable to call one a senior when one competes in senior competitions. Is it that much of a stretch?

But what about Sui/Han? Look at their 2010-2011 season and then continuing to do Junior events. Or Kovtun, who was junior in most of the 2012-2013 season and then went to Euros and Worlds?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Heh Actually i did think it as I type, but i respect her too much to take cheap shot

I refer to him as a Junior for the 2014 season only when he was transitioning from Junior to Senior rank and not even made Senior worlds yet, so yes I think it is fair to consider him a junior skater then. He obvious isn't since WC 2014. In any case, these are indeed the most generous PCS ever given to a young skater making their senior debut, surely even Jason fans can at least agree with that.

Please be specific. I would say his first senior season was 2013-2014, when he started on the senior Grand Prix. For me, there's no ambiguity when Brown was a senior and when he was a junior.

Nationals isn't a suitable barometer by any means. There are plenty of Russian girls who skate in the Senior Russian figure skating championships, but that doesn't define their "senior" status.

 

[Mrs. P]

But what about Sui/Han? Look at their 2010-2011 season and then continuing to do Junior events. Or Kovtun, who was junior in most of the 2012-2013 season and then went to Euros and Worlds?

Please be specific. I would say his first senior season was 2013-2014, when he started on the senior Grand Prix. For me, there's no ambiguity when Brown was a senior and when he was a junior.

Nationals isn't a suitable barometer by any means. There are plenty of Russian girls who skate in the Senior Russian figure skating championships, but that doesn't define their "senior" status.

Honestly I'm confused about the whole junior/senior thing. I'm not sure what the discussions is regarding his senior/junior status as a skater and how that is related to what he earns in PCS at nationals and/or international competition.

If the outrage is that Jason got 80+ PCS in his first season as senior internationally with no quad, I guess I can see how some would be outraged...but YMMV clearly. Or is it that he got 93+ PCS at Nationals after Riverdance?

Jason's programs are difficult in other ways. He has decent transitions and few crossovers between his elements, which likely boosts his PCS mark. Not having a quad isn't a bullet point for deduction in any category in PCS, at least as far as I know.

At this point it's TL;DR to me: Some think Jason was overscored in PCS last season, which has little bearing on what's going to happen THIS season.

 

[OS]

With all due respect, Juke wasn't crass. It was Brown trying to present a different side of himself. He shouldn't pander to programs that "work" just to win, he should choose what he wants to perform.

That must be why he is doing Juke like short program again this season then... I have no problem with the music and yes variety is the spice of life, but I do have problem with the hokey lazy interpretation of it, especially when it get huge inflated marks. More hands sleek back hair choreography (dude!!! you are wearing a tight ponytail!! It is pointless!), and more multi direction finger pointing following with 'expressive' wink and a smile here and there and hip wiggling. Oh plzzzz... lets just give him another US national title already.

I'd love Jason to do an Elegy, but frankly I don't think he is capable of delivering to its potential that Patrick has done.. the power of stillness and pauses, holding positions, power of understatement, and particularly how to work silence, delicate music moods, layering the emotions, build ups. It will be a challenge to hold the attention of his typical audiences without his usual gimmick. Let's see how he does with is FS this year first... he has real chance of blossoming into an artist if he is up to the challenge.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Why does he have to deliver Elegy to the potential of Patrick? He's his own skater.

Hanyu did POTO the very season after Patrick won Worlds with it, but clearly put his own interpretation on it. Frankly I think it's a bit silly though to use the same music as a recent champion because people will compare.

As for doing a Juke-like program... I'm not sure if you noticed, but Brown is a showman, so he'll do at least one program that's upbeat and fun. Also, Juke was a blues program (1952). His current SP is 1920s Great Gatsby. They're two different eras of music.

 

[OS]

Why does he have to deliver Elegy to the potential of Patrick? He's his own skater.

Hanyu did POTO the very season after Patrick won Worlds with it, but clearly put his own interpretation on it. Frankly I think it's a bit silly though to use the same music as a recent champion because people will compare.

As for doing a Juke-like program... I'm not sure if you noticed, but Brown is a showman, so he'll do at least one program that's upbeat and fun. Also, Juke was a blues program (1952). His current SP is 1920s Great Gatsby. They're two different eras of music.

The novel might have been set in the 1920s but come on it is a Baz lurman modernization. Since when he has ever been faithful to comit to one single genre in his films instead of mismash all the periods to bring up his unique vision... there were even some Art Nouveau stuff from the production design if I remember. And actually the music is modern originals. The point is are these 2 program sharing similar music structure, consist of steady strong rhythmic beats? Similar Americana Nostalgia, played by similar instruments/big band setting? Similar interpretation despite like you said, they are different pieces.

 

[Tavi...]

@os168, you repeatedly present your opinions as fact. They are not facts. They are just your opinions, and no more valuable than anyone else's. It's possible to express a negative opinion in a neutral way, without being rude, inflammatory or condescending. I suggest you try it.

 

[StitchMonkey]

The novel might have been set in the 1920s but come on it is a Baz lurman modernization. Since when he has ever been faithful to comit to one single genre in his films instead of mismash all the periods to bring up his unique vision... there were even some Art Nouveau stuff from the production design if I remember. And actually the music is modern originals. The point is are these 2 program sharing similar music structure, consist of steady strong rhythmic beats? Similar Americana Nostalgia, played by similar instruments/big band setting? Similar interpretation despite like you said, they are different pieces.

Juke was a harmonica!

 

[LRK]

Why does he have to deliver Elegy to the potential of Patrick? He's his own skater.

Hanyu did POTO the very season after Patrick won Worlds with it, but clearly put his own interpretation on it. Frankly I think it's a bit silly though to use the same music as a recent champion because people will compare.

As for doing a Juke-like program... I'm not sure if you noticed, but Brown is a showman, so he'll do at least one program that's upbeat and fun. Also, Juke was a blues program (1952). His current SP is 1920s Great Gatsby. They're two different eras of music.

Yuzuru did POTO last season, didn't he? And checking, I find that Patrick did POTO last in the 2009-2010 season? And he was silver at Worlds that year? Not that I think it matters to the discussion at hand, but I was a little confused, that’s all.

Meanwhile, I don’t see why Jason should skate like Patrick – or any skater try to emulate the style of any other. (shrug)

 

[TMC]

The novel might have been set in the 1920s but come on it is a Baz lurman modernization. Since when he has ever been faithful to comit to one single genre in his films instead of mismash all the periods to bring up his unique vision... there were even some Art Nouveau stuff from the production design if I remember. And actually the music is modern originals. The point is are these 2 program sharing similar music structure, consist of steady strong rhythmic beats? Similar Americana Nostalgia, played by similar instruments/big band setting? Similar interpretation despite like you said, they are different pieces.

This thread is a gift that keeps on giving

 

[OS]

Actually... I have a suspicion the music edit used in the Skeleton video is not the actual music edit of the program. Let's wait until a competitive clip comes available with the real music edit. I feel we are squabbling over nothing, when one thing drag onto another and the original message clearly got lost along the way. (ie/Jason is over marked at US Nationals and it affect US mens's international standing) Anywaysenjoyed the tit for tat... adios

@os168, you repeatedly present your opinions as fact. They are not facts. They are just your opinions, and no more valuable than anyone else's. It's possible to express a negative opinion in a neutral way, without being rude, inflammatory or condescending. I suggest you try it.

Disclaimer: I have repeated state these are in my opinions. Of course they are not facts, this is a human judged sport. Your opinion is good as mine. The only thing is whether it sounded more convincing than mine. All these judging decisions and the entire COP are opinions, the fact Jason;s mark get consistently boosted at home event certainly has to do with the higher opinion of USFederation judges vs International judges. I happen to side with International judges and think his marks are inflated for what they are. I have stated my reasons, if you disagree, no biggie.

 

[dorispulaski]

Juke is not Big Band. It is a Chicago Blues number, and is part of the R&B genre.

Jason's version of Juke is to the original Chicago Blues song by "Little Walter" Marion Walter Jacobs, a harmonica player.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Walter

Marion Walter Jacobs (May 1, 1930 – February 15, 1968), known as Little Walter, was an American blues musician and singer, whose revolutionary approach to the harmonica earned him comparisons to seminal virtuosos Django Reinhardt, Charlie Parker and Jimi Hendrix,[2] for innovation and impact on succeeding generations. His virtuosity and musical innovations fundamentally altered many listeners' expectations of what was possible on blues harmonica.[3] Little Walter was inducted to the The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2008 in the "sideman" category[4][5] making him the only artist inducted specifically as a harmonica player

.....

Jacobs [Little Walter] had put his career as a bandleader on hold when he joined Muddy [Waters]'s band, but stepped back out front once and for all when he recorded as a bandleader for Chess's subsidiary label Checker Records on May 12, 1952. The first completed take of the first song attempted at his debut session became his first hit, spending eight weeks in the number-one position on the Billboard R&B chart. The song was "Juke", and is still the only harmonica instrumental ever to be a number-one hit on the Billboard R&B chart. (Three other harmonica instrumentals by Little Walter also reached the Billboard R&B top 10:

Little Walter previously played with Muddy Waters' band, a Chicago Blues band.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muddy_Waters


If you want to know more about Chicago Blues, start with the Wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_blues

or go to the Chicago Blues Festival next June.
http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/dca/supp_info/chicago_blues_festival.html/


I have no problem with people hating the piece, but please identify its place in music history correctly while you hate on it.

 

[OS]

Juke is not Big Band. It is a Chicago Blues number, and is part of the R&B genre.

Jason's version of Juke is to the original Chicago Blues song by "Little Walter" Marion Walter Jacobs, a harmonica player.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Walter





.....




Little Walter previously played with Muddy Waters' band, a Chicago Blues band.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muddy_Waters


If you want to know more about Chicago Blues, start with the Wiki
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_blues

or go to the Chicago Blues Festival next June.
http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/dca/supp_info/chicago_blues_festival.html/


I have no problem with people hating the piece, but please identify its place in music history correctly while you hate on it.

Thanks for the correction. Yes when I hear again, it is not big band, but some sort of Blue/Jazz quartet, R&B!! Gotcha

 

[StitchMonkey]

I have no problem with people hating the piece, but please identify its place in music history correctly while you hate on it.

This is why we love you!

 

[aromaticchicken]

Actually... I have a suspicion the music edit used in the Skeleton video is not the actual music edit of the program. Let's wait until a competitive clip comes available with the real music edit.

This is indeed the program cut - Jason performed it at glacier falls.

 

[OS]

This is indeed the program cut - Jason performed it at glacier falls.

Thanks! Aha Eureka... found it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YPOt-vgOjM

Described as Jazz Age mix by The grey orchestra. 2013 modern adaptation typical of Baz Lurman's production. I'd be very surprised to find anything genuinely faithfully authentic from his movies actually. His films and story telling style are shot like pulp art production, eclecticism and usual fusion of modern and vintage aesthetics to produce a rough idea rather than an genuine adaptation. Here's the Jack White version from the same film.
http://myspace.com/thegreyorchestra/music/album/themes-inspired-by-the-great-gatsby-19051858

Original by U2 in 1991.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8_HZ2jG_60