The role and influence of gender traits in Figure Skating

[Li'Kitsu]

I guess the main problem with the terms 'feminine' and 'masculine' in figure skating is that they're mostly used in a negative sense when talking about the opposite gender. It's not rare thing to read 'I don't like Jason Brown (or Yuzuru Hanyu) because his skating is so girly', or on the other side that 'Meite isn't feminine enough, her skating isn't beautiful/good because of that'. But did anyone ever read 'I like (male) x's skating because he has nice feminine qualities?' (if someone wants to express something nice about mentioned skaters that is in a similar manner, it's phrased more 'neutral': Jasons/Yuzurus fluidity/grace; Meites power and so on).

That said, I don't think the examples TMC listed are wrong. Some are certainly debatable (which can always happen in a thread anyway), but it's true there are still certain perceptions about some qualities being inherently masculine or feminine. Now in my opinion, I don't see any problem with that, as long as it's not meant in a negative way. For a long time the perception was that males are more dominant/powerful/extroverted while women are graceful/gentle/introverted (which doesn't mean men are bearish or women are weak in return). I mean I don't know that much about origin/meaning, but even with the chinese Yin & Yang both represent a gender - among many other qualities, which are therefor associated with gender too (Yang as the male part is active, associated with the sun; Yin is the female part, passive and associated with the moon unless I'm very wrong on this, then please correct me). Has any women ever felt discriminated because femininity is associated with the moon, and not the sun?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is: biologically feminine =/= traditionally feminine in the sense mentioned in this topic (same with masculine). Just because I'm feminine doesn't mean I have to possess all those feminine qualities, or that I can't have male ones without belittling my femininity. As long as that part is clear, all's good. The bad part is when the terms are associated with a good or bad judgement.

All that said, I don't think I have any preferences in that regard when it comes to skating. I just don't think in these terms, so to speak, and am pretty blind to it

 

[Warwick360]

Don't know about masculinity or femininity but just dropped by to complain about some of the guy's costumes. It's almost like they could go with something so simple and effective but it's like glitters and "let's go disco" approach going around right now I see (and it's not even necessary to the theme).

I still reminisce about how good Yuzuru's costume was for R&J part 1. Last year, my favourite was Joshua Farris's SP. Could it get anymore simpler?

But some designers, oh god. One of them made MCM look like a Xmas tree for SP at World's and now I find Nam had his turn it seems with what looks like a unitard. https://youtu.be/yyfoWAPBDPM?t=5m50s Reminded me of Homer's "Sexy flanders" comment.
https://youtu.be/gsVEm9X8gEE?t=7s :sarcasm:

 

[cl2]

I think TMC is trying to point out how certain fans have seen certain qualities as one of the other. I think we can have a nuanced discussion on this with accusing people as being sexist, in fact I'm sure that is what TMC is seeking.

I also think a discussion whether if we should even define qualities as one or the other, as Mathman had done, is quite interesting.

For example, why is having "power" seen as a male trait in sports? It's why Serena Williams get a lot of flack. She accused of having an "unfair advantage" cause of her power. That always bothered me. Can you have power regardless of whether you are man or female?

That's also why Meghan gets lots of flak. The idea that the female half of a pair needs muscle tone to do what they do seemed hard for some to accept. In fact, proper tone and conditioning has enabled pair teams to do hard elements that would have been considered too dangerous by other teams.

P.S. IMO, this is an interesting topic from the sociology/anthropologic point of view. Thx to TMC for raising it.

 

[Meoima]

I don't have issue if ladies wear men costume and men wear girly costumes.

My issue is they usually wear ugly costumes that don't look good on them.

 

[TMC]

Thank you, guys!

El henry, that is exactly what I had in mind: I find that I admire skaters who confound expectations. Just like I admire men and women who build careers in professions that are traditionally male/female-dominated (s/o to dorispulaski). Working in a field where 90% of people are of the opposite gender is incredibly hard, no matter how good you are at what you do. To have the courage to do it anyway (or in my example, to be true to the style you feel is truly your own, no matter what the critics say) is commendable.

 

[Mrs. P]

That's also why Meghan gets lots of flak. The idea that the female half of a pair needs muscle tone to do what they do seemed hard for some to accept. In fact, proper tone and conditioning has enabled pair teams to do hard elements that would have been considered too dangerous by other teams.

P.S. IMO, this is an interesting topic from the sociology/anthropologic point of view. Thx to TMC for raising it.

The Meghan example is a good one! And perhaps, while not comparable in terms of results/success, could be comparable to the Serena Williams example. Female tennis players, too, are expected to look a certain way and some players have stated on the record that they wanted a certain body type because they want to "look" a certain way or project a certain image. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/s...e-body-image-with-quest-for-success.html?_r=0

“It’s our decision to keep her as the smallest player in the top 10,” said Tomasz Wiktorowski, the coach of Agnieszka Radwanska, who is listed at 5 feet 8 and 123 pounds. “Because, first of all she’s a woman, and she wants to be a woman.”

I was thinking about it more in the shower this morning and another examplein skating is actually the likes of Kiira Korpi/Carolina Kostner. How many times have we heard that they earned their PCS because of a "beauty bonus." When, in reality, they actually have some bonafide abilities in areas like skating skills and choreography.

I think while it's nice to think as fans "I just like (or don't like) their skating!" and perhaps many of you can avoid it entirely, I do think gender roles/sterotypes do influence many fans' (and judges, even) view of a given skater.

 

[cl2]

Would you say that certain skaters have an overall "masculine" or "feminine" style? Would you say that some skaters are able to, if you will, add a "masculine" or "feminine" flavour to certain programmes, when appropriate? What makes a style/program "masculine" or "feminine" in your eyes?

I started thinking about this yesterday when I was watching Joshi Helgesson's SP at Lombardia. I've also lately been watching some videos of skaters that I had 'missed' when I had a long break (1997-2010 basically) from watching FS; Laura Lepistö, Brian Joubert, Stéphane Lambiel etc etc.

I'm attracted to some male skaters who appear to have almost exclusively masculine qualities (ex. Elvis Stojko wuzrobbed 4eva!) as well as female skaters who appear to me to be feminine through and through (ex. Brooklee Han). And obviously some skaters that I like fall somewhere in the middle (Yuna Kim)
But I found it curious that I seem to most enjoy female skaters who have "masculine" styles or qualities, and conversely, male skaters who have "feminine" styles or qualities. What's that about? (She asks herself)

It's so difficult to put to words why one finds one performance/style feminine and another masculine. There are so many factors that contribute to the impression.

To me, a female skater comes across as having masculine qualities if they have some or all of these qualities (compared to other female skaters in an event):

- Considerably better speed and ice coverage (ex. Wakaba Higuchi)
- "Attack", which to me is speed into elements, no hesitation (Gracie Gold, Higuchi)
- Really, really High, explosive jumps with both speed and ice coverage and/or with extras, such as Rippon arms (Vivian Le)
- Unusual spins (no Biellmans, rarer layback positions)
- Extroverted charisma, which to me is the skater clearly projecting outside, performing to the audience, as opposed to being in their own world (Akiko Suzuki, Valentina Marchei)
- Performance, as above but with added blatant flirting with the audience (Ashley Wagner, Joshi Helgesson)

To me, a male skater comes across as having feminine qualities if they have some or all of these qualities (compared to other male skaters in an event):

- Innate musicality, movement to the music that gives a dancer-like impression (ex. Jason Brown)
- Ballet-esque extension down to toes and fingertips (as above)
- Slower speed (not necessarily slow across the ice but body movements etc. can give an impression of "carefulness", if you will) (Joshua Farris)
- Less frantic, ie. finishing movements fully before moving on to next element/transition (Yuzuru Hanyu)
- Arm variations in jumps and on landing (Adam Rippon, Alexander Petrov respectively)
- Unusual spin positions (layback, Biellman) (Rippon, Brown, Hanyu, Martinez)
- "Lyrical" movements, such as arms on landing, spirals, paying attention to arms during cross-overs etc.
- Introverted charisma, when a skater's performance appears contemplative rather than playing to the audience or hamming it up (Joshua Farris)
- Well expressed joy in skating, such as a genuine smile here and there or at the end at least, not letting their steely focus show outside so that it looks like they're passing kidney stones.

PS. Please let's keep references to any individual's sexuality, or really sexuality at all, out of this thread as such comments are prone to becoming flame-warlike.

With regard to the list of qualities TMC listed, collectively and irrespective of prior gender bias (if any), they represent what we now consider to be qualities of a Good Skater With Good Technique. Technique is gender neutral. That many of us now recognize it as such is a testament to the progress of the sport.

 

[Mrs. P]

With regard to the list of qualities TMC listed, collectively and irrespective of prior gender bias (if any), they represent what we now consider to be qualities of a Good Skater With Good Technique. Technique is gender neutral. That many of us now recognize it as such is a testament to the progress of the sport.

But the question, how many people, on the whole, view it from that "gender neutral, good technique" lens? That was sort of the point I made earlier with the Kiira Korpi example. She has really awesome skating skills, maybe not Patrick Chan level, but really good skills. But yet if you read any thread about her, she's often pigeon-holed because she is pretty.

Or the question for me, is what would it take for people to recognize those traits from a neutral level rather than as a quality of gender?

 

[dorispulaski]

Dr. Jenn started a related thread last season:

Considerations of Gender and Sex in Figure Skating
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...derations-of-Gender-and-Sex-in-Figure-Skating


Pepe Nero had one in 2012
Feminism and Figure Skating
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35827-Feminism-and-Figure-Skatin

Have things in the skating world changed anybin the past three years with respect to gender stereotyping and other gender issues?

 

[Mrs. P]

Dr. Jenn started a related thread last season:

Considerations of Gender and Sex in Figure Skating
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...derations-of-Gender-and-Sex-in-Figure-Skating

Good reading! I remember seeing this thread but didn't really weighed in. Thanks for bringing it back...I hope Dr. Jenn is still posting here and can join in this discussion.

 

[dorispulaski]

Too quick!

There is a 2012 thread too
Feminism and Figure Skating
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35827-Feminism-and-Figure-Skatin

 

[4everchan]

i am not a skater.... wanted to be... but dad thought I should play hockey skating was 1) too expensive... 2) more appropriate for girls...

so ... i swam... and wore speedos MUAHAHA

I am bringing this up simply as for some people, figure skating is actually a "feminine" sport....

Examples in this debate, about the Williams sisters or Meagan ...who don't fit the what a woman should look like or act like stereotype are actually still holding nowadays....

I tend to agree with TMC and El Henry here that I like skaters who transcend these stereotypes, guys with refined lines, girls with power... etc... but as long as they are good overall.

And finally, recognizing these stereotypes is a good step forward in reaching equality.... some of these labels come from natural dispositions but it is culturally that society has faulted humanity ...

Thank you for this thread, I think I understand where you are coming from...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I find femininity and masculinity both to be strengths. Whether male or female, I find possessing such traits to be a beneficial thing. Not sure why people feel otherwise nor do I care to speculate but for me....regardless of your physical nature...either one is a positive thing to have. Just be yourself

 

[gourry]

I think it has more to do with novelty. After watching similar things over and over again, we tend to fancy something new(if it is well done, of course.).
If for some reason male skaters start skating tons of lyrical programs, we will appreciate the few powerful programs among them more, and if female skaters all come out with powerful programs, we will find lyrical programs very refreshing and likable for example.
Something rare will always outstand and we tend to notice them, don't we?

 

[usethis2]

I think TMC is trying to point out how certain fans have seen certain qualities as one of the other. I think we can have a nuanced discussion on this with accusing people as being sexist, in fact I'm sure that is what TMC is seeking.

I also think a discussion whether if we should even define qualities as one or the other, as Mathman had done, is quite interesting.

For example, why is having "power" seen as a male trait in sports? It's why Serena Williams get a lot of flack. She accused of having an "unfair advantage" cause of her power. That always bothered me. Can you have power regardless of whether you are man or female?

I agree. And in a similar vein, one of the most ridiculous charges laid upon female skaters is that they are emotionless and cold because they do not smile - whether or not the music and choreography they are skating to call for smiles. I never hear such criticism when the skater is a man. A ridiculous double standard, IMO.

 

[TMC]

I agree. And in a similar vein, one of the most ridiculous charges laid upon female skaters is that they are emotionless and cold because they do not smile - whether or not the music and choreography they are skating to call for smiles. I never hear such criticism when the skater is a man. A ridiculous double standard, IMO.

For sure, and now that you said this it got me thinking and made me realise that I'm guilty of this, too. I often wonder why there aren't more smiles, but disproportionately more when the non-smiling skaters are female. It's only now that I realise that it must be because of my own expectations re gender-appropriate behaviour.

This is exactly why I feel it's important to talk & think about stuff like this. It's good to see and realise that no matter how 'neutral' you would wish and strive to be, there are probably some things you feel or perceive in a certain way because of your own gender and the person's you are thinking about. But when you are 'forced' to face these prejudices, it's the first step in getting rid of them.

 

[russianbratz]

To me, ballet and elegance are not masculine or feminine. They're about the objective beauty of the human form. So I don't really get people getting hung up on gender. If you're skating powerful but rough, it's going to be ugly whether you're a man or a woman. Likewise if you're skating "pretty" but have no oomph, it will look bad for either sex. That's just my take though.

 

[karne]

I think you're upset because you think maybe that the way I divide masculine/feminine comes from some antiquated feeling that masculine = good, feminine = bad.

I probably sounded more upset than I was because it was nearly midnight. I just had problems with the seemingly arbitrary division of what is basically good skating along the feminine and masculine lines.

But the one that really just makes no sense to me:

Rippon arms make Adam come across as feminine -- but Rippon arms make Vivian Le come across as masculine?
I know you are saying also that Vivian's jumps are high and explosive as well, but still??​

Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me either.

I like this question! It is exactly what I had in mind in a way - yes, women too flirt. But go into any social occasion even today and you'll see that if a woman is over-flirty, she will be judged, whereas if a man is over-flirty, he will generally be thought virile or some such crap.

Actually, I think the opposite is true in skating. In skating, a lady flirting with the crowd is almost expected and agreed with - but the men, oh no! That's tacky and cheap and men just should not do that. Look at the reaction when Plushenko blows a kiss to the crowd. His fans adore it, plenty of people eye-roll and attack him for it.

It's not rare thing to read 'I don't like Jason Brown (or Yuzuru Hanyu) because his skating is so girly', or on the other side that 'Meite isn't feminine enough, her skating isn't beautiful/good because of that'.

Yep. This is why it becomes dangerous to try and divide certain aspects of skating along gender lines. If I had a dollar for every time I'd heard some sarcastic remark that Jason "is a girl" because of either the ponytail or the skating, well, I wouldn't have to worry about saving for my Worlds trip...

Don't know about masculinity or femininity but just dropped by to complain about some of the guy's costumes. It's almost like they could go with something so simple and effective but it's like glitters and "let's go disco" approach going around right now I see (and it's not even necessary to the theme).

It's just an expression of individuality. Some like sparkles. Some don't. Josh has been guilty of the rhinestone overload plenty of times in the past (actually, last year's costumes might have been his plainest ever). And then there's the hilarious story of Max sitting his hotel room the night before the first competitive outing of West Side Story plucking the stones off the red shirt. His explanation? He just didn't think the stones fit the costume. But his Tron costume glittered quite madly (in lieu of it not actually lighting up...)

I think it has more to do with novelty. After watching similar things over and over again, we tend to fancy something new(if it is well done, of course.).
If for some reason male skaters start skating tons of lyrical programs, we will appreciate the few powerful programs among them more, and if female skaters all come out with powerful programs, we will find lyrical programs very refreshing and likable for example.

Poor Max. All a glut of elegant lyrical programs at US Nationals seems to do is provide more fodder to toss him out.

I agree. And in a similar vein, one of the most ridiculous charges laid upon female skaters is that they are emotionless and cold because they do not smile - whether or not the music and choreography they are skating to call for smiles. I never hear such criticism when the skater is a man. A ridiculous double standard, IMO.

Well, I disagree. There are ways to express emotion without smiling, and I think both men and ladies are guilty of forgetting that. But there are performances I consider emotionless simply because they are.

 

[TMC]

Poor Max. All a glut of elegant lyrical programs at US Nationals seems to do is provide more fodder to toss him out.

This is a problem, obviously.

I personally got the feeling that the criticism that Max's new programmes received - even before anybody had seen them, just because of the music choices - was very often due to this idea that many people have, that because Max is a powerful skater with explosive jumps, he's uber-masculine and should therefore perform "masculine" programs. At least he should never do anything lyrical, because that is "feminine" and therefore inappropriate for Max. (of course people don't use the words "feminine" or "masculine", at least most don't, but some do, and some idiots also use them in a derogatory fashion.)

But, what happened when Max did a program (Footloose) that was supposedly just perfect for him? It was not very good.

What happened when Max did a program that was supposedly not suitable for him at all (Black Swan)? It did suit him, it made him grow as a skater and performer, and he looked fabulous. Yet Youtube and social media are full of comments about how awful the music is for him and how badly he does lyrical and so on. It went so far that there was actually a debate about whether he had been forced to use this music, and it was difficult for people to understand/believe the truth, which is that he had wanted to skate to this music for years, and he was really doing what he himself wanted. I can't believe that all of these people really genuinely don't see the improvement in Max's skating, at least in comparison to Footloose. Yet you can find comment after comment saying that the music choice is awful for Max and that the style does not suit Max. I'm afraid that the "reasoning" behind a lot of these comments - not all of them of course - is that the commentator either consciously or subconsciously feels that Max is a "masculine" skater and therefore a programme that has these lyrical qualities, which are considered to be "feminine", is not a good match for Max.

This attitude limits all skaters, male and female, and we'd do well to try to get rid of it. I believe it is good to sit down for a moment and think about what you like and what you don't like, and why (generic you, ie. all of us, not you personally, Karne). It's interesting as an exercise anyway - it's fascinating to realise that you may not like a colour because of some negative childhood connection to it, for example - and it's a good way to find out if you have prejudices after all. Then you can proceed to smash them to smithereens. Of course if you know for a fact that you have zero prejudices, then that is brilliant :yay: . Most people do have them, even if they don't realise it themselves.

 

[Alex D]

The beauty of skating to me is the variety.

I still drool over old programs by Victoria Helgesson and Susanna Pöykiö as I like those mature skates with all their emotions. At the same time, I did enjoy Schindler´s List a lot by Julia or the naughty programs by some of the American skaters in the past 10 years.

Same can be said about the men, I always enjoy what Peter Liebers does or Sasha and Plushy. In my opinion, every "type" has something special and can bring something different to the table. It is however true that some skating fans tend to expect, that a female skater skates like a little girl and a male skater rips of his clothes.


I just came back from the US Open and we had such a discussion there about Serena. The basic "topic" on many days was how it is possible that Sharapova gets more attention and endorsement, while Serena wins the titles and gets less back so to speak. People there blamed it on her "look", that she is an athlete so to speak and not a Barbie doll... In my opinion, no person should be reduced to those things, it was not fair to Serena, just like it wasn't fair to Sharapova.