2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Tavi...]

It is about the fine line of musicality. Just like I know from personal experience not many trained artists are necessarily that artistic, nor do I find that many trained ballet dancers are naturally gifted at interpreting choreography. All these is not to say performers can not deliver something that is musicality sound, or artistically credible with sheer hard work, training, refining and practice.

How slow and how quick someone is able to pick up choreography and music intentions can be seen in their natural ability to convey appropriate suitable movement even without obvious music directions. The fact Jason has been slow delivering a decent version of last year's T&I (until world team?) convinced me his great performances are the product of hard work rather than innate talent. The fact there were still no visible improvements in his current FS interpretation further confirms this. Anyway, he appears to have a great team that seems to know how to best develop and present him (all except in costumes which is very ... home made), and he is lucky for the fact good innate musicality seems hugely underrated under COP anyway.

Ermmm, afraid I'm going to have to disagree with everything you say except the fact that he has a great team. You talk about a fine line of musicality. Are you really saying that your taste is so much more refined than other people's - mine, for example - that you are a far better judge of the subtleties of musicality than the rest of us?

I also think you've set up a false dichotomy between natural musicality / artistry and hard work. Although talent may allow you to pick up certain things quickly, far more important is the absolute complexity of the work and your familiarity with the style and the inherent challenges. The simpler something is in terms of the challenges it presents, and the more experience you have with similar things, the faster you will be able to bring something up to full performance level.

And that is something I know from personal experience.

 

[andromache]

Ermmm, afraid I'm going to have to disagree with everything you say except the fact that he has a great team. You talk about a fine line of musicality. Are you really saying that your taste is so much more refined than other people's - mine, for example - that you are a far better judge of the subtleties of musicality than the rest of us?

I also think you've set up a false dichotomy between natural musicality / artistry and hard work. Although talent may allow you to pick up certain things quickly, far more important is the absolute complexity of the work and your familiarity with the style and the inherent challenges. The simpler something is in terms of the challenges it presents, and the more experience you have with similar things, the faster you will be able to bring something up to full performance level.

And that is something I know from personal experience.

I THINK (not sure) what os168 is trying to say is that sometimes you can just tell if someone is effectively interpreting their music. Such as when people say "so and so skates without really hearing the music." Gracie Gold, for example, can have beautiful packaging and choreography, but does not really appear to be listening to or "feeling" the music. It's almost an intuitive thing for the viewer to sense, I think.

I agree on the false dichotomy you have identified, however. I don't think developing that feel for interpreting the music is necessarily innate. I think Jason may appear to be less musical/interpreting the music less than a skater like Josh simply because his program is sooooo jam-packed of transitions and choreography that it takes him a long time to develop a natural-seeming musicality for the program. Even a skater who seems to have more innate musicality (like Josh, again) probably wouldn't interpret Rohene's programs very well for some time because he would be focused on executing the complexity of the program.

Once you're comfortable enough with a program though a ton of hard work, you'll be able to "interpret" the program because you won't be thinking so much about every little detail--though of course skaters who never or rarely seem to interpret the music are just really, really focused on their elements to the detriment of the interpretation.

 

[noskates]

I think interpretation actually has a lot to do with the music. Josh's program made it easy for him to feel the music and get into it. Jason's - not so much. And I'm speaking of 2014 and Riverdance. I was not a big fan of the cuts of music for last year's LP. I think a lively cut isn't necessarily lyrical.

 

[Jaana]

I have really respected the attitude that Max, Jason, and Josh (at least appear) to have towards each other. I hope that it is genuinely from them and not just from USFS or their coaches. I would really like for those three to be our World (or Olympic!) team one year.

I think it looks nice that they appear to be friends, especially as most fans enjoy and expect the skaters to have "a friendly rivalry".

 

[Mrs. P]

The JGP is officially over for the men and there's tons to be happy about. Four out of the nine men sent medaled in six out of seven events. Vincent Zhou and Nathan Chen secured JGPF spots, quite refreshing after the U.S. failed to secure any spots last season.

Here's the Overall SB for those JGP participants:

Nathan Chen (senior nationally): 236.76
Vincent Zhou (senior nationally): 211.96
Tomoki Hiwatashi: 197.62
Alexei Kranozhon: 194.68
Tony Lu: 182.26
Oleksiy Melnyk: 170.39
Tony Boucher: 164.33
Kevin Shum: 163.54
Paolo Borromeo: 159.19

I believe that Andrew Torgashov is heading to seniors nationally, so we have a pretty good idea of what to expect in junior men. Looks like Hiwatashi and Kranozhon may battle for gold.

 

[gravy]

The JGP is officially over for the men and there's tons to be happy about. Four out of the nine men sent medaled in six out of seven events. Vincent Zhou and Nathan Chen secured JGPF spots, quite refreshing after the U.S. failed to secure any spots last season.

Here's the Overall SB for those JGP participants:

Nathan Chen (senior nationally): 236.76
Vincent Zhou (senior nationally): 211.96
Tomoki Hiwatashi: 197.62
Alexei Kranozhon: 194.68
Tony Lu: 182.26
Oleksiy Melnyk: 170.39
Tony Boucher: 164.33
Kevin Shum: 163.54
Paolo Borromeo: 159.19

I believe that Andrew Torgashov is heading to seniors nationally, so we have a pretty good idea of what to expect in junior men. Looks like Hiwatashi and Kranozhon may battle for gold.

Impressive! I'd love to see Nathan on the World team with Joshua and Ricky. Maybe Adam if his programs are good.

No Jason or Max, please USFS. Thanks.

 

[el henry]

Impressive! I'd love to see Nathan on the World team with Joshua and Ricky. Maybe Adam if his programs are good.

No Jason or Max, please USFS. Thanks.

Yes, USFS, please: why would you send your defending champ, who finished fourth in the world last year, to Worlds this year, when you can send a 16 year old kid competing in his first senior nats? Boy, USFS, what a bonehead move *that* would be, to send your most consistent skater.

 

[gravy]

Yes, USFS, please: why would you send your defending champ, who finished fourth in the world last year, to Worlds this year, when you can send a 16 year old kid competing in his first senior nats? Boy, USFS, what a bonehead move *that* would be, to send your most consistent skater.

As someone going to Worlds, I'd prefer to sit through an over-the-top cutsie Michael Jackson program done by a 16-year old than a cutsie over-the-top "pull my fake bowtie" program by a 21-year old. Both feature junior-level choreography, so why not see the younger one who is less cheesy? YMMV, of course.

Do I think Jason is going to make the team and Nathan will not? Yes. Would I prefer to see Nathan over him? Yes.
It's just a dream team, per se. Doesn't mean it will happen.

By the way, there are instances in the US where defending National champions who did well at Worlds did not make the team the following year.

 

[ice coverage]

Yes, USFS, please: why would you send your defending champ, who finished fourth in the world last year, to Worlds this year, when you can send a 16 year old kid competing in his first senior nats? ...

Nathan already competed as a senior at 2015 Nats.

(But I'm not taking sides in the debate re Nathan vs. other U.S. men.)

 

[shmay]

I believe that Andrew Torgashov is heading to seniors nationally, so we have a pretty good idea of what to expect in junior men. Looks like Hiwatashi and Kranozhon may battle for gold.

Wouldn't be much of a battle...unless Krasnozhon regresses considerably and Hiwatashi improves considerably.
Has Krasnozhon's team specifically said that he will be competing junior again at nationals? It seems like a bit of an odd choice for someone who is senior age eligible, and has had relatively good results in JGP. He has the tech content, so why not let him join the buzz parade of Nathan/Vincent/Andrew at nationals?

 

[HanDomi]

As someone going to Worlds, I'd prefer to sit through an over-the-top cutsie Michael Jackson program done by a 16-year old than a cutsie over-the-top "pull my fake bowtie" program by a 21-year old. Both feature junior-level choreography, so why not see the younger one who is less cheesy? YMMV, of course.

Do I think Jason is going to make the team and Nathan will not? Yes. Would I prefer to see Nathan over him? Yes.
It's just a dream team, per se. Doesn't mean it will happen.

By the way, there are instances in the US where defending National champions who did well at Worlds did not make the team the following year.

If Nathan will skate clean at Nationals he can become even champion this year, so that would be strange if they would not send him to senior worlds in that scenario

 

[Jammers]

Wouldn't be much of a battle...unless Krasnozhon regresses considerably and Hiwata shi improves considerably.
HasKrasnozhon's team specifically said that he will be competing junior again at nationals? It seems like a bit of an odd choice for someone who is senior age eligible, and has had relatively good results in JGP. He has the tech content, so why not let him join the buzz parade of Nathan/Vincent/Andrew at nationals?

Krasnozhon needs to stay Junior Nationally he's not ready to skate as a Senior unlike someone like Nathan who has accomplished almost everything he can as a Junior. Let him battle it out for the Junior title and then win some medals on the JGP next year. As for Vincent and Andrew they are both only 14 so i'm not sure they shouldn't also skate as Juniors at Nationals too. Especially Andrew since he hasn't competed all season.

 

[karne]

No Jason or Max, please USFS. Thanks.

And why not?! Why not?! Why not the reigning National champion, that beacon of consistency, the best spinner in the world?! Why not a recent National champion, someone who can land the big jumps and land them well, someone who has shown he will work his tail off to make himself better and has already proven that work is starting to pay off? Why not them?!?!?!?

As someone going to Worlds, I'd prefer to sit through an over-the-top cutsie Michael Jackson program done by a 16-year old than a cutsie over-the-top "pull my fake bowtie" program by a 21-year old. Both feature junior-level choreography, so why not see the younger one who is less cheesy? YMMV, of course.

Junior-level choreography, my rear end! There's no man in the world could pull off that insane short program like Jason does. You want to go watch Chen? Fine, go to JUNIOR Worlds. I do not understand why Chen's so-called "fans" are so keen to rob him of a potential Junior World Title. Nothing wrong with winning that.

I am going to Worlds too, and I am going to Senior worlds, to watch men, not boys, to see Max, and Jason, and Joshua!

 

[Jammers]

And why not?! Why not?! Why not the reigning National champion, that beacon of consistency, the best spinner in the world?! Why not a recent National champion, someone who can land the big jumps and land them well, someone who has shown he will work his tail off to make himself better and has already proven that work is starting to pay off? Why not them?!?!?!?



Junior-level choreography, my rear end! There's no man in the world could pull off that insane short program like Jason does. You want to go watch Chen? Fine, go to JUNIOR Worlds. I do not understand why Chen's so-called "fans" are so keen to rob him of a potential Junior World Title. Nothing wrong with winning that.

I am going to Worlds too, and I am going to Senior worlds, to watch men, not boys, to see Max, and Jason, and Joshua!

It won't matter. If Nathan finishes in the top 3 at Nationals he's going to Worlds as he should.

 

[concorde]

I agree with Gravy - no Jason please. While he may have some "wonderful intricate" choreography, I do not like it. To me he looks like he is constantly flailing and the outfits do not help. That is my view and I am positive that others have the opposite view.

Having said that, I expect Jason and Nathan to both land in the top 3 at Nationals so both will go to Worlds.

 

[andromache]

Seeing lots of hate for so many of the US men here right now!

I love them all . Sure, I have my favorites, but I'm not going to tear other men down in order to support them. It's a shame we only have three Worlds spots!

 

[Tavi...]

A chacun son goute, but how many of you dismissing Jason's SP are skaters yourself? Because I kinda get the feeling that you don't recognize how extraordinarily difficult it is.

Jason's transitions and footwork feature balancing on his heels as well as his toe picks, and incorporate the Finn Step (eg ice dance moves) as well as the Charleston. In addition, he's constantly in positions that challenge his balance because he is leaning horizontally or bending or "flailing" those arms or doing high kicks and leg extensions. He is also adding multiple dance inspired jumps - jetes, heel kicks, etc. That's all in addition to the required elements. You may not like it, you may think it's cheesy, but at least recognize and respect the fact that what he puts out in that one SP is really hard.

Nathan Chen skates very well - his jumps, spins and footwork are all good - but his SP is far less challenging than Jason's. It's not totally devoid of transitions and he has some nice smooth Michael Jackson moves in his footwork, but for the most part he's in an upright position with one or both feet on the ice. The program incorporates few if any balance-challenging positions or movements, and there are no extra jumps. In short, his SP is nowhere near as difficult as Jason's.

 

[noskates]

Wow. Just Wow. I sincerely hope that most of the skaters do NOT read this forum. This is a tough crowd. It blows my mind that someone would prefer Nathan over Jason who has the better track record. I, too, don't see why anyone has to tear down one skater to prop up another.

 

[HanDomi]

Wow. Just Wow. I sincerely hope that most of the skaters do NOT read this forum. This is a tough crowd. It blows my mind that someone would prefer Nathan over Jason who has the better track record. I, too, don't see why anyone has to tear down one skater to prop up another.

I don't think it is with prefering Nathan over Jason, it's being reality with number of quads prefering Nathan to even finish on top at nationals if he nails it. OF course if Jason will do his job and do clean program with quad he will be on top.

 

[noskates]

The number of quads in a program should NOT determine who the better figure skater is. There is SO much more to skating than quads. There are also several other men who will be in the running besides Nathan. This happens every year and it's so disconcerting. Someone blesses a skater with the "skate God" role and thinks they're going to just nail everything because they've had a few good competitions early in the season. It's still a loooooooooooong way to Nationals. Nathan still has to earn his spot. He has the jumps, spins, etc. but to me he's still not as mature as about 4 other men in seniors.