Elena Ilinykh & Ruslan Zhiganshin

[Alba]

The reality is, they are skating elements well, and not getting the reward for doing so that the teams they should be competing with are. And it's not just here with the mistake, it was same in China. There have been teams this season - not even the top top teams, but teams like S/K & G/P - who have outscored them technically this season starting from a lower base value because their GOE is that much better. It's not fear or panic to say this is a problem that they have to address if they want to have any impact over the rest of the season. Ignore the twizzles and they had the best levels here, but when everyone is getting 3 & 4 on all their elements, it's the GOE that makes the difference.

I was referring to what Marta wrote about the partial (you quoted me on that comment) and as the GoE's shows they didn't got worse.

And 2 points in PCS is a huge amount, especially in the SD.

Not when the tes is 7 points lower than the couple who got those 2 points in PCS. That was my point.

The fall doesn't change what the judges give them for Transitions, or Choreography, or even that much in Skating Skills. No matter what the TES, 31.89 is bad for a team of their quality with their aspirations, just as 32 in China was disappointing. They got almost a point higher at GPF last year (32.87) for a performance that was worse than today - 2 really big mistakes - when they had less reputation. The fact is, they got poor PCS by their standards here & in China (although thankfully less so in the free in China.) We know they can do better, the response from commentators & experts has been mixed, everyone says the program is a risk, and I think now is the time to say the risk hasn't worked. It's not a defeat to do something like that, to not stick your head in the sand and just carry on with doing the same thing in the hope that it gets better.

And that's entirely a different issue. No it's not a defeat to change the program, or even take a pause if that helps. I say by all means do whatever it needs to be done, and I think they know that better than outsiders. My point is that the most important thing is they need to learn to be consistent first of all. That needs time and patience. Maybe they got higher marks last season also because they were the only Russian couple with realistic chances to bring some good results. Who knows? I need to see the FD skated very well in order to form a better idea about the judges GoE's and PCS because at least we agree that Frida is a wonderful program. I haven't practice ID but I have danced in a semi-pro group for years (it was my biggest hobby) and it is damn hard for couples to work like a clock, let alone like a swiss clock. No matter how talented you are. You know that.

 

[uhh]

I was referring to what Marta wrote about the partial (you quoted me on that comment) and as the GoE's shows they didn't got worse.

They did, because the partial is a different thing this season, with a different base value, so the scaling of the GOE is also changed. You need to compare the partial last year with the 2nd RW with is, and the GOE has dropped significantly.

Not when the tes is 7 points lower than the couple who got those 2 points in PCS. That was my point.

1. Their PCS has been disappointing and a long way off last year at both GP events
2. PCS & TES are not tied as closely in Ice Dance as in singles or pairs. I'd expect maybe 1 point more overall if it had been a clean skate, and that is still behind what S/K & B/S have been getting, and also behind what they were given most of last season.
3. The TES doesn't explain why they are getting 7 for transitions or low scores for choreography. These are scores that generally stay roughly the same no matter the technical quality.

 

[Marta25]

They did, because the partial is a different thing this season, with a different base value, so the scaling of the GOE is also changed. You need to compare the partial last year with the 2nd RW with is, and the GOE has dropped significantly.




1. Their PCS has been disappointing and a long way off last year at both GP events
2. PCS & TES are not tied as closely in Ice Dance as in singles or pairs. I'd expect maybe 1 point more overall if it had been a clean skate, and that is still behind what S/K & B/S have been getting, and also behind what they were given most of last season.
3. The TES doesn't explain why they are getting 7 for transitions or low scores for choreography. These are scores that generally stay roughly the same no matter the technical quality.

The score for the choreography was actually not that bad. It was better than in China and close to what S/K received, but the scores for SS and transitions has me
They are the better skaters and performers compared to S/K and Elena is a much stronger skater than Anna, Kaitlyn or Madison. Maybe the program doesn`t show off their strengths the way Carmen did?

The paso doble seemed to fit them 100%, something just feels off with this SD.

 

[Alba]

They did, because the partial is a different thing this season, with a different base value, so the scaling of the GOE is also changed. You need to compare the partial last year with the 2nd RW with is, and the GOE has dropped significantly.

I know that and I didn't take the BV or the total GoE. Why should I compare the pattern with the partial? I also think what Marta was really referring to were the NtMiSt, rather than the partial actually. So there you go. Nothing to compare in terms of steps.

2. PCS & TES are not tied as closely in Ice Dance as in singles or pairs.
I'd expect maybe 1 point more overall if it had been a clean skate, and that is still behind what S/K & B/S have been getting, and also behind what they were given most of last season. 3. The TES doesn't explain why they are getting 7 for transitions or low scores for choreography. These are scores that generally stay roughly the same no matter the technical quality.

Really? Since when PCS are not tied with the TES and constancy&reputation? How do you explain the 7s on the choreo TR and CH with Frida in China then? Yes, there are cases when the judges simply do not like the program or are not convinced by it and they show this with the PCS scores. I wasn't saying this isn't the case. I was saying they haven't become worse on their elements. Well, one particular element that was.

 

[tvuckic16]

Friends, this is all very interesting. I am learning a lot from you. Personally, in my non-expert opinion, I must say I am surprised at IZ scores. In CoC their skating was technically pretty clean (not taking into account the performance aspect), just some minor errors, as far as I could tell. Nevertheless, especially in the FD, they were not even close to the leaders. From a presentation aspect, even with Frida not being skated at their full presentation potential at CoC, it is a much better program than that sentimental drivel they had last year and yet they scored similarly to what they were scoring last year towards the end of the season.

Ok, today, he fell, unfortunately, so I get the 7.5 pt loss on the twizzles. But, as some of you mentioned, adding up all the points they lost, they were only going to score a 63 or 64 (maybe they could have scored 65), very similar to SK, not enough to really challenge CL or WP (and nobody can convince me that CL are better skaters than IZ, or are they?).

So, while I am not all doom and gloom, I mean, these things happen and it is only one competition, overall, I am puzzled as to why IZ scores are not higher this year, almost like they are stuck and not really moving much forward in the eyes of the judges.

Curious in Boston...

 

[Marta25]

If you watch their SD at last year`s COR and compare it to this year, you can clearly see how much they improved. The difference is that Carmen fit them to a T, whereas the Queen SD is more of a struggle. I also feel that the Frida choreo suits them much better and feels more natural to them than the choreo in their Queen SD.

 

[Alba]

If you watch their SD at last year`s COR and compare it to this year, you can clearly see how much they improved. The difference is that Carmen fit them to T, whereas the Queen SD is more of a struggle.

I totally agree that Carmen was like wow from the start. It is also more easy to get that kind of feeling from a program like Carmen which is a classic. I personally love their SD this season. The choreography is great, more intricate, more interesting and difficult. However, I do get others who don't and why is that. I also think though that despite skating it clean in China I still think they haven't skated it at their full potential and this is the kind of program that really needs that. Is it worth the risk and continue? I really don't know. I just think they must've had feedbacks from the judges and the FED, so they should know what's the best thing to do. That's all.

Nevertheless, especially in the FD, they were not even close to the leaders. From a presentation aspect, even with Frida not being skated at their full presentation potential at CoC, it is a much better program than that sentimental drivel they had last year and yet they scored similarly to what they were scoring last year towards the end of the season.

That's my point also.

But, as some of you mentioned, adding up all the points they lost, they were only going to score a 63 or 64 (maybe they could have scored 65), very similar to SK, not enough to really challenge CL or WP

I don't know about challenging W&P and C&L but you can't really add up the points and have a clear picture. You can add up the BV but that tells us nothing because:

1. That was the first element and it often happens that a bad mistake can have an effect on the resto of the elements with some judges. So we don't really know, now, how much in GoE's they would've got for the Twizzles and the rest of their elements. True, it doesn't happens with all skaters so the question comes why them, then? There could be different reasons, among them that the judges don't like the program, but it might not be the only explanation.

2. We know even less how much they would've got in terms of PCS, in Russia, with a clean skate and a great performance.

So, while I am not all doom and gloom, I mean, these things happen and it is only one competition, overall, I am puzzled as to why IZ scores are not higher this year, almost like they are stuck and not really moving much forward in the eyes of the judges.

I feel the same but I think they needed to make a strong statement from the start this season. Many people, and judges also, do remember them making mistakes. That automatically gives you a bad rep. in that aspect. No matter how much talent and how much potential they might think you have in the end constancy is the real winner, IMO.

 

[uhh]

@tvuckic16 I think there are several reasons, but firstly, I think their score in China for the FD wasn't too unfair - almost 97 if we ignore the flower deduction, they had some big stumbles on transitional movements which will have hurt the PCS, skated conservatively & lost levels on the lift & 2nd step sequence... if they are clean I expect a much better score.

However:
1. Last year after CoR they were clearly the top Russian team, and this year with B/S back & S/K improving, it's not so clear. And it sucks that this can influence how the judges treat you, but that's the way it goes. And it seems Marina has a bit of her politiking mojo back, we've had a summer of Bukin & Bestemianova saying how they aren't the no. 1, now Staviski & Peter T join in promoting other teams...it's really tough, and now there is no cushion if they make mistakes.

2. They've added more complexity to the programs and as a consequence have sacrificed a little speed. Not enough that they are now slow, but for whatever reason, judges will go with speed over anything else, especially for SS. I would say their SS & TR scores should be going up because they are demonstrating more mastery of their blades & ability in hold, but apparently a speedy hand in hand 1 foot glide as preparation for your waltz beats slower work that's actually in hold. Hopefully it pays off in the long run because challenging themselves will make them better skaters, but maybe they've tried a little too much this year & lost some of the ease they had previously.

3. The SD is just not that well received in general. A "bad" outing of Frida got the same or better PCS as good skates in the FD from S/K & B/S at their events, but they are falling behind in the SD. It's the same skaters doing the short & the free, which leads me to believe that the judges have a problem with the program and it bleeds into how they see the execution of the elements. I agree with Marta25, it doesn't fit them the way Carmen did & I suppose the judges will feel that too.

4. They've had a tough field at their events & there's still the "leave room" mentality. Like you said, if they had done the twizzles as usual here, they've have been around the same score as S/K, but both teams would be a way off W/P & C/L, even though they are skating at home & to me there's not a big difference in skating quality between them and C/L. Again in China, they scored I/Z knowing that there were two world medallist teams to come. If they'd been at TEB last weekend, I'd guess they would have had slightly more pleasant scores, because they'd have been one of the top teams rather than the ones fighting their way up.

 

[Tex]

Who made a hole in the ice so that Ruslan have to fall.

Elena posted a pic of Ruslan and her in her instagram with text "My support and support". Someone please translate it more accurate.

https://www.instagram.com/p/-UBfGwKBs4/?taken-by=blackswanei

The second support should be realiance according to Bing translator, so it should be "my support and reliance". Realiance meaning someone you can depend on, which is a perfect description of Ruslan.

 

[bramweld]

I think the PCS scores are the judges way of saying they simply don't like the program. There is no way that I/Z aren't better dancers than C/L and S/K. But I'm telling you the judges like clean, elegant, dare I say it squeaky clean. They need to pay attention more to the details, clean things up a bit and just become consistently cleaner. They will not be at the GPF so this is the right time to simply change the music they way B/S did for their chess program. They have everything, they just need to put it all together, this just takes more time for some.

 

[MK's Winter]

I think the PCS scores are the judges way of saying they simply don't like the program. There is no way that I/Z aren't better dancers than C/L and S/K. But I'm telling you the judges like clean, elegant, dare I say it squeaky clean. They need to pay attention more to the details, clean things up a bit and just become consistently cleaner. They will not be at the GPF so this is the right time to simply change the music they way B/S did for their chess program. They have everything, they just need to put it all together, this just takes more time for some.

They had such a huge year last season, I think it's natural to feel pressure being the National Champions. The crowd loved them. I can't tell and I'm being serious- did Ruslan hit a rut? He had the twizzle, it looked like the blade rocked and toe pick.

 

[bramweld]

They had such a huge year last season, I think it's natural to feel pressure being the National Champions. The crowd loved them. I can't tell and I'm being serious- did Ruslan hit a rut? He had the twizzle, it looked like the blade rocked and toe pick.

It almost looks that way, the sad part is everything before and after that was so good. It was almost as if it didn't happen. Love the way they responded. Ruslan was mad at himself and Lena was like, Ruslana, just forget it. Really cool response. Hey look do we recall how many majorly error ridden programs W/P had before it just gelled? I'd say leave them be.

 

[MK's Winter]

It almost looks that way, the sad part is everything before and after that was so good. It was almost as if it didn't happen. Love the way they responded. Ruslan was mad at himself and Lena was like, Ruslana, just forget it. Really cool response. Hey look do we recall how many majorly error ridden programs W/P had before it just gelled? I'd say leave them be.

I agree. I see nothing wrong with the program. I would like a little more leg extension in the pattern but it's really all about consistency right now. I like the change to the lift as well, I am reminded of a D/R interview where they said they only started gaining marks once the simplified transitions in their program. I wonder if the program looks too busy for the judges. Any thoughts?

 

[bramweld]

I agree. I see nothing wrong with the program. I would like a little more leg extension in the pattern but it's really all about consistency right now. I like the change to the lift as well, I am reminded of a D/R interview where they said they only started gaining marks once the simplified transitions in their program. I wonder if the program looks too busy for the judges. Any thoughts?

Nah, I think it's fine for what it is. Sometimes that's just the way it is.

 

[humbaba]

I wonder if the program looks too busy for the judges. Any thoughts?

I have wondered just the opposite. The WWRY section of the program looks too simple. There are precious seconds of the short program spent standing in place posturing and fist pumping, followed by skating around side by side while fist pumping. All the fist pumping can seem so pedestrian.

My subjective reaction to I/Z's short program is that it doesn't look as difficult as the SPs of the other top teams. I'm not saying that it is, in fact, less difficult; I don't have the expertise to make that sort of judgment. And I'm well aware that things that look easy often are not. I just wonder if some judges might have a subjective response to the program that's similar to mine. Could they watch the WWRY section of the SP and think, "Well, I could see the same moves from a bunch of fans at a rock concert or a football match."

 

[bramweld]

I have wondered just the opposite. The WWRY section of the program looks too simple. There are precious seconds of the short program spent standing in place posturing and fist pumping, followed by skating around side by side while fist pumping. All the fist pumping can seem so pedestrian.

My subjective reaction to I/Z's short program is that it doesn't look as difficult as the SPs of the other top teams. I'm not saying that it is, in fact, less difficult; I don't have the expertise to make that sort of judgment. And I'm well aware that things that look easy often are not. I just wonder if some judges might have a subjective response to the program that's similar to mine. Could they watch the WWRY section of the SP and think, "Well, I could see the same moves from a bunch of fans at a rock concert or a football match."

After Lena's fall last year, Besti was quick to point out how this couple was a failed experiment. No one can say that today, the speed and unison and power on those twizzles was amazing before they had the fall. The RW was also very well done along with everything else. Lena and Ruslan, it just wasn't their day today. Their time will come.

 

[loredanamuresan]

A lot of "experts" saw them as a failed experiment from the begining. What i saw is two people who enjoy skating together. Even with the mistake their performance was beatiful and light. And I realy loved how suportive Lena was with Ruslan. He needs that to gain confidence because everybody believes that he is not good enough for her.

 

[solani]

A lot of "experts" saw them as a failed experiment from the begining. What i saw is two people who enjoy skating together. Even with the mistake their performance was beatiful and light. And I realy loved how suportive Lena was with Ruslan. He needs that to gain confidence because everybody believes that he is not good enough for her.

I still think that those who wrote them off were just happy that one of the top couples in Russia was gone, so there was supposed to be room for another. And then it wasn't, because Elena and Ruslan teamed up. Those experts have their own interests in mind and those interests might be in conflict with the interests of Russian ice dancing. And I have no idea why Ruslan shouldn't be good enough for her, he was considered to be better than Victoria and Victoria seems to be good enough for Nikita. And it's not like Elena had a lot of alternatives and neither had Ruslan. They were lucky that it worked out that well. And we are as well.

 

[uhh]

I have wondered just the opposite. The WWRY section of the program looks too simple. There are precious seconds of the short program spent standing in place posturing and fist pumping, followed by skating around side by side while fist pumping. All the fist pumping can seem so pedestrian.

My subjective reaction to I/Z's short program is that it doesn't look as difficult as the SPs of the other top teams. I'm not saying that it is, in fact, less difficult; I don't have the expertise to make that sort of judgment. And I'm well aware that things that look easy often are not. I just wonder if some judges might have a subjective response to the program that's similar to mine. Could they watch the WWRY section of the SP and think, "Well, I could see the same moves from a bunch of fans at a rock concert or a football match."

The first bit is the compulsory stop, that everyone has to do before the partial sequence. The ISU specifies that it can up up to 10 seconds long, and I don't personally like what they do it in, but it fits the requirements for the season & the judges shouldn't be marking them down for it. If they don't like having a break in the program like that, don't make it a compulsory requirement! The partial sequence itself... you might have a point, although they have been getting OK GOE on that section. Although it's a march, it's not the type of march they are expecting to see. I think everyone else who went for a march over the foxtrot or polka is using something from a ballet & it's all nice & safe and not at all aggressive or in your face.

It's so frustrating that you hear from judges & specialists "we don't want people to be afraid of trying new things, people should experiment". I've particularly heard that they are worried that no one will use the option of the hip hop rhythm next season because it's so unusual, and yet W/P tried something different and were told to change, and I/Z & G/P are doing something different and getting poor scores.

 

[LisaM]

^I honestly hope IZ will use the hip hop rhythm because I think they will be one of the only ones that could pull it off. Certainly in the top groups. But I would understand why they wouldn't, because of the reasons you mention.