We are not objective, we can't be, we can only try. Their FS this year is far more intricate than their FS last year and is showing off different qualities. And both Elena and Ruslan have to get used to that kind of program. And they're getting better. I think that this kind of program might not help them in the short term, but in the long term. S/K are doing now what S/Z were doing last season: showing off their speed. And it is impressive and great to watch as I/Z's FS was last season. But it's only so much they can score with that kind of program, they can't become world champions with that kind of program. Evolution is difficult but necessary.
Elena Ilinykh & Ruslan Zhiganshin
- Thread starter OrdinaryDreamer
- Start date
Well, I must admit I was expecting Frida to score here, with that kind of skate, a bit higher, like 100.
But maybe I don't understand all the subtleties of PCS and scoring dynamics like you guys.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
That's one way to put it.
PCS and GoE's, de facto, are used like the scores in the old days. Nothing has changed, really. Especially in ID. The only difference is that today you are more prone to errors since lifts, twizzles, spins etc. have levels and etc.
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They were not going to get a personal best today. We all knew this its called the "you messed up your SD so unless you are P/C you will not be vaulted from sixth to the podium". That being said, the class of the field today were W/P and I/Z. So I/Z's scores should have been over 100. However what was telling is that the judges could not score the medalists ridiculously higher scores anyway. So what I read from this is, if they master their programs, they will get higher scores. Will they place them on top of the podium, there are no guarantees. The judges have their tastes and we can't change that. We can only enjoy them.
I remember absolutely loving Eleanor Rigby from D/W and the judges just didn't. They wanted softer, romantic and classical. To this day I think it one of D/W's better programs along with Samson and Delilah. I'm not really a fan of anything much else.
Am I being objective? I don't know, let each viewer judge. I watched W/P (love their chemistry, skating skills the entire program, class of the field), C/L (cute didn't move me), S/K (I was expecting to be impressed, however skating skills no where as impressive as I/Z, very open program, not as fast as I/Z in step sequences, Katsalapov clearly thinking through every edge and they were scored only 1 point less than W/P?).
These are my opinions, this is an I/Z fan thread. What more can I say. That dance you can watch over and over and never grow tired of it. This is an excellent dance and not a mere collection of elements. I look forward to how it will grow over the season.
EDIT: Go look at S/K's FD. There were so many dirty turns and balance checks from Katsalapov and he knew it. The twizzles were also untidy. Sinitsina tries to console him in the end. But as he rightly said after last Russian nationals the FED has put their lot with him and Sinitsina. But if this is the type of dancing that the fed wants representing Russia, fast big tricks, almost no transitions, big cross-overs into almost all the elements, almost devoid of personality, I'll take I/Z EVERY SINGLE TIME. It's like I/K part two, without the spice. LOL. And this is my objective opinion. In as far as that is possible
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You've been watching skating for a long time, you know that if you mess up the SP you are never properly rewarded for what you do in the FS. Mao in Sochi, B/S in Worlds 2012 just two examples off the top of my head. It's a just engrained in the judges that group 1 in the FS doesn't get high 8s or 9s in PCS. More so in the FS than the short because the skaters have theoretically sorted themselves by quality through the short.
How else are you going explain them skating a better program, at home, and losing 3 points in PCS?
@tvuckic16 It's hard because the scores have been all over the place to know what the judges are thinking. If they'd done clean twizzles yesterday, they would have been ahead of S/K, just, but probably thanks to TES, not PCS. The PCS in China was OK, but not as good as last year, but then Carmen was a special SD & this one is just meh for me, even when skated well. If you look at the protocols, there's a ridiculous spread from judges giving 6/7 to judges giving 8/9. Some people like it, some clearly hate it, so then you just get a middling score that doesn't help set them up for the FD.
The FD, I love, but it's not an easy obvious crowd pleaser the way that C/L's is. When the performance isn't on like in China, it falls flat, and I do think the 95 (remembering that it included a deduction for the flower falling off which has nothing to do with how they skated it, and considering the levels issues they had) was just about fair. They have to be on and fully into the performance side for it to have the full impact. And I just have to hope that the marks today, when they managed that performance, were because of the SD leaving them in a bad position, because it's not a skate that deserved that PCS. No way.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I won`t pretend as if I`m happy how this GP season went for them. I expected more scoring wise, but that obviously didn`t happen. BUT this doesn`t mean that their whole season is now doomed. I remember in the 2011/2012 season D/W got huge scores for their Die Fledermaus FD at the beginning of the season, whereas V/M`s Fred Astaire program was criticised a lot. In the end V/M were the ones to win Worlds. C/L had an awful GPF in the 2013/2014, but they became European and World Champions in 2014. I/Z have now time to polish both programs before Nationals. S/K will probably go as favorites in, but the goal for Nationals is to qualify for the Euro`s team. I want I/Z to change the SD, but if they don`t, then they have to skate the hell out of that program, because Nats is going to be brutal.
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- Apr 18, 2014
When Klimova and Ponomarenko left Dubova, Alexeeva was actually their coach, not TAT. TAT admitted that Alexeeva handled their training and she just consulted. But TAT was front and center in the kiss and cry because she provided the politics. I am wondering if a similar figure head might be needed.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I think politics are in some way in play here. As much as I like how Kustarova created a positive skating environment, she just doesn`t have the political pull of Zueva, Krylova and Shpilband, who all showed that they can bring teams to the World`s podium. I read on different forums that some want them to switch to Platov, but I`m not sure how this could help them with this particular problem. Besides of Averbukh none of the Russian experts are pushing publicly for I/Z. I agree that their quality should be enough to bing them to the top, but right now I`m not sure if they don`t need someone in their corner who has the political influence.
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- Dec 21, 2011
Honestly maybe the judges don't like Frida. It might be too complicated for them to understand, especially if they do really only watch it once in the 5 minutes they are judging. I don't think this means they should change it though. I think it is a wonderful and complex program that is helping them grow as skaters. Maybe too complex for the judges, but I think there are still advantages to keeping and preforming it.
They might be being sent a message that the judges would rather see more traditional, easy to comprehend programs next year. I do think this is a legitimate possibility and we have to be realistic and view it as such. And honestly they are going to have to decide whether to take that message or to remain 100% true to themselves and their vision, if they can't do both. Perhaps some middle ground can be found but I personally would rather see them be true to their vision and give us incredible and unique programs, even if the judges are too silly to appreciate them.
They might be being sent a message that the judges would rather see more traditional, easy to comprehend programs next year. I do think this is a legitimate possibility and we have to be realistic and view it as such. And honestly they are going to have to decide whether to take that message or to remain 100% true to themselves and their vision, if they can't do both. Perhaps some middle ground can be found but I personally would rather see them be true to their vision and give us incredible and unique programs, even if the judges are too silly to appreciate them.
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They are a quality team people. The FED can see that. They will not be dumped. I've never been moved by a dance so much in quite some time. One of the Eurosport guys said it was "technically gorgeous". The other just wanted something more vibrant and sassy for Lena. My guess is a number of persons think that Lena is a movie star when really she is that great indie actress you can't get enough of. That is why so many are confused.
My top three couples for me right now are I/Z, P/C and W/P.
My top three couples for me right now are I/Z, P/C and W/P.
The problem is there is no one they could go to who does have the influence because they've all already got top teams. Maybe Igor because he doesn't have any Russians & C/B haven't been setting the world alight this year. But on the other hand he has so many teams that it would be easy for them to be overlooked, and having Igor as a coach would only add even more to the I/Z v S/K nonsense.
Then there is Morozov, who is good at putting together a package that the judges find easy to reward, but there are a million reasons why I never want him near any skaters that I like ever again. The other option is as Abraxis said, stick with this coaching team but have someone like TAT as a figurehead to help with that side of things. Except she doesn't seem to be a fan of them (but if you went and flattered her ego & did the "only you can save us, O Queen Tatiana" maybe she would, idk). The other person is Dubova, who seems to be completely removed from skating these days, but is very close friends with Elena & her family. Surely if one of the greatest coaches of Russian Ice Dance was to be seen supporting them it could only help.
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- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
True but what I was trying to say, and poorly so, is: if the judges are having problems with the SD because they do not like it, and they are sending a clear and loud message to them about this shouldn't they also send a different message for the FD? I mean they had no problems giving them the marks for Carmen, although a bit underscored there as well but for a different reason. If they don't do this when they skater in Russia, their home, I can't imagine how low they can be outside Russia. Although in China they received more. I'm just really puzzled by it and confused. I'm really hoping their PCS today are a reflection of what you said, because of the mistake in the SP, but I think there is something else going on behind the scenes. Not a conspiracy theory, but a msg. regarding their coaches.
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- Feb 26, 2014
This option would be great but I'm not sure about TAT. She took Gachinsky officially under her wing and yet she spent more time talking about Kovtun last season. Dubova is in US. Too far from Russia. I would be happy if they can work with her though.
CL left Igor because he was ignoring them. I'm not sure he's the magician that everybody thinks he is but in that case either you go with Igor as your full time coach or leave it. Their problem is not the difficulty, levels etc. but rep. glitter, pr. and all the bull that is necessary for top teams. Krylova doesn't have a political power either. Two couples left her already in order to the new fashion school these days. WP got the podium after so many years competing and when other teams left. So that was more a natural order of things, and they have the complete canadian FED power behind them and that reflects with international judges also.
I don't know what happened with Rai but they were good with them in their commentary, including the SD:
Alba, that's because they're that goooood. Puhlease, woman
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- Apr 18, 2014
Dubova would be good as a consultant, but not sufficient as a full-time coach. She is a great technical coach and could clean them up.
Her downfall as a coach was a lack of objectivity regarding her skaters. She favored Usova, but Maia admitted that Dubova should never have kicked Grischuk out on her behalf. She also became too fond of Bourne and Kraatz and started ignoring many of their problems, i.e. The toe steps were simple, there was a lot of two foot skating, and the holds in riverdance were not complex.
Her downfall as a coach was a lack of objectivity regarding her skaters. She favored Usova, but Maia admitted that Dubova should never have kicked Grischuk out on her behalf. She also became too fond of Bourne and Kraatz and started ignoring many of their problems, i.e. The toe steps were simple, there was a lot of two foot skating, and the holds in riverdance were not complex.
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- Feb 26, 2014
Alba, that's because they're that goooood. Puhlease, woman
Pedrazzini was good with them last season also but I was a bit surprised because they had 2 italian couples here in Moscow and they suck with their commentary when italians are involved. In Pairs for example they were really horrible
p.s. I've missed that Puhlease.
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Plus I doubt she has any interest in full time coaching these days. I was thinking of her as more of a consultant than anything - instead of spending 2 weeks with her on vacation like Elena did this year, she should have taken Ruslan & gone for a month to work. I wouldn't want Dubova having any control over choreo or music or anything, just working on the basic quality & partnering and also being a powerful voice in their corner.
