ISU makes decision on 2015-16 GPF selection

[Mathman]

Why didn't Michelle Kwan win a gold medal?

It's not too late. The IOC could still award her one out of charity.

 

[noskates]

Bwahahahah - good one Mathman!!! :agree:

 

[mrrice]

That is nonsense about Gracie being a charity case. She already had a 2nd place finish at SA and would have had to bomb huge to not finish at least in second place and most likely get a GPF spot. In fact until COR she had both the highest SP and LP score of the GP season. Doesn't sound like someone who needed charity to me.

I agree. Gracie is a lot of things but she is hardly a charity case. Come on....... With Frank and Lori, even I could be National Champion. Gracie was great in the SP and if she came anything close to what she did in the LP at Skate America. She would have won this event. Nice try.

 

[chuckm]

That's true, but if non-Europens Federations wanted to make it easier for their skaters, they could move their Nationals to December too.

Easier said than done in the US and Canada, where figure skating has to compete with more popular sports and activities like hockey, basketball and rock concerts for venue and network contracts. December is a particularly difficult month because the GPF takes up the first part of the month and the Christmas holidays, the latter part. USFS couldn't book an arena during the Christmas holidays because ticket sales would be dismal and without ticket sales, USFS couldn't afford to hold Nationals. I'm sure Skate Canada has the same limitations.

I don't think you realize how many skaters compete at Nationals in the US. This year, 20 Senior men, 22 Senior Ladies, 15 Senior Pairs Teams and 15 Senior Dance teams will compete, as well as 12 Junior Men, Women, Pairs and 14 Dance teams; 12 Novice Men, Women, Pairs, Dance; 12 Intermediate Men,Women, Pairs, Dance; and a similar number of Juveniles in each discipline.

Canadian Nationals include Senior, Junior and Novice Men, Women, Pairs and Dance; 18 men and women, 12 pairs, 15 dance

Russia is the only European country whose Nationals comes anywhere close to these numbers, but Russian Nationals features only Seniors.

So it's easy to say "Move Nationals to December" but if you stop and realize the size of what you are moving, it is not feasible. US Nationals takes an entire week (Sunday to Sunday) and every day is packed with competition. Most European Nationals take one or two days, three at the most.

And yes, some Europeans train in the US. But travel from the US to Europe just doesn't compare with travel from the US to Japan or Korea (particularly from the Eastern US to the far East). It can take days, not hours.

 

[Figure 8's]

I don't see how the ISU had any choice but to make the decision they did. Unfortunate situation but the Skaters should not be penalized for something that was beyond any ones control. Moral of story is, you need to skate your best always. Many times the winner of the short has a big lead where no one can overtake them.

 

[ice coverage]

... Even with a 5th place Max' chances wouldn't have been great ...

Has anyone taken the men's SB scores and added them to the results of TEB to see the potential outcomes?

Because Sam-S raised the hypothetical scenario of using FS SBs:

If the sum of TES SP + FS SB were used for allotment of GP ranking points to all TEB men, Max would receive 7 ranking points for 5th place, giving him a total of 22 ranking points. And:

- Max would have a very good chance of qualifying for the GPF as #6 in the post-NHK rankings.
- At worst, Max would be #7 in the post-NHK rankings -- so he still would make the cut, if the special ruling for TEB skaters who are #7 were in effect.​

See the full extrapolation below.

SP scores from TEB (source: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpfra2015/CAT001RS.HTM):

1 Shoma UNO JPN 89.56 1
2 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 86.82 2
3 Daisuke MURAKAMI JPN 80.24 3
4 Denis TEN KAZ 80.10 4
5 Patrick CHAN CAN 76.10 5
6 Alexander PETROV RUS 74.64 6
7 Max AARON USA 72.91 7
8 Yi WANG CHN 72.08 8
9 Jin Seo KIM KOR 71.24 9
10 Chafik BESSEGHIER FRA 68.36 10
11 Romain PONSART FRA 62.86​

Free skate SBs (source: http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2015-16/sbtsmfs.htm )

1 190.33 Patrick CHAN CAN ISU GP Skate Canada International 2015 31.10.2015
4 176.65 Shoma UNO JPN ISU GP 2015 Progressive Skate America 24.10.2015
5 172.28 Max AARON USA ISU GP 2015 Progressive Skate America 24.10.2015
6 171.37 Daisuke MURAKAMI JPN ISU GP Skate Canada International 2015 31.10.2015
12 163.24 Maxim KOVTUN RUS ISU CS Mordovian Ornament 2015 17.10.2015
28 149.58 Alexander PETROV RUS ISU GP Skate Canada International 2015 31.10.2015
63 127.20 Jin Seo KIM KOR ISU GP Skate Canada International 2015 31.10.2015
68 122.50 Denis TEN KAZ ISU GP 2015 Progressive Skate America 24.10.2015​

No previous Challengers or GPs this season:

Wang http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00010543.htm
Besseghier http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009928.htm
Ponsart http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009408.htm​

Sums of TEB SP + SB FS

1 Patrick CHAN CAN 266.43 = 76.10 + 190.33
2 Shoma UNO JPN 266.21 = 89.56 + 176.65
3 Daisuke MURAKAMI JPN 251.61 = 80.24 + 171.37
4 Maxim KOVTUN RUS 249.86 = 86.82 + 163.24
5 Max AARON USA 245.19 = 72.91 + 172.28
6 Alexander PETROV RUS 224.22 = 74.64 + 149.58
7 Denis TEN KAZ 202.60 = 80.10 + 122.50
8 Jin Seo KIM KOR 198.44 = 71.24 + 127.20​

If this calculation were used, the GPF ranking points would be:

Fernandez and Chan 30
Uno 26
Aaron 22
Murakami 22 (Max wins the first tie-breaker over Daisuke)
Han Yan 20

With 13 ranking points going into NHK, Hanyu and Jin would have to place at least third at NHK to outrank Max.
With 9 points, Kovtun or Hochstein would have to win NHK to outrank Max.
With 7 points, Menshov would have to both win NHK and win the second tie-breaker to outrank Max.

So if one assumes that Hanyu and Jin would place in the top three at NHK, Max would be bumped down to #6.
But Max would be bumped down to #7 only in the less likely case of Kovtun, Hochstein, or Menshov winning NHK -- beating both Hanyu and Jin. (And Menshov still would have to win the second tie-breaker.)
​

 

[Violet Bliss]

I really don't see why Max not making GPF is a greater issue than Liza being out of it.

 

[cathlen]

Easier said than done in the US and Canada, where figure skating has to compete with more popular sports and activities like hockey, basketball and rock concerts for venue and network contracts. December is a particularly difficult month because the GPF takes up the first part of the month and the Christmas holidays, the latter part. USFS couldn't book an arena during the Christmas holidays because ticket sales would be dismal and without ticket sales, USFS couldn't afford to hold Nationals. I'm sure Skate Canada has the same limitations.

I don't think you realize how many skaters compete at Nationals in the US. This year, 20 Senior men, 22 Senior Ladies, 15 Senior Pairs Teams and 15 Senior Dance teams will compete, as well as 12 Junior Men, Women, Pairs and 14 Dance teams; 12 Novice Men, Women, Pairs, Dance; 12 Intermediate Men,Women, Pairs, Dance; and a similar number of Juveniles in each discipline.

Canadian Nationals include Senior, Junior and Novice Men, Women, Pairs and Dance; 18 men and women, 12 pairs, 15 dance

Russia is the only European country whose Nationals comes anywhere close to these numbers, but Russian Nationals features only Seniors.

So it's easy to say "Move Nationals to December" but if you stop and realize the size of what you are moving, it is not feasible. US Nationals takes an entire week (Sunday to Sunday) and every day is packed with competition. Most European Nationals take one or two days, three at the most.

And yes, some Europeans train in the US. But travel from the US to Europe just doesn't compare with travel from the US to Japan or Korea (particularly from the Eastern US to the far East). It can take days, not hours.

So in other words, it's all about money. I'm not sure entirely, but in Europe most of the federations probably don't have any network contracts, they don't sell tickets, it's free & somehow they cope. I admit, I didin't know that US Nationals takes entire week. I think it's matter of priority. I might be wrong, but isn't Nationals just more important for Americans than 4CC? Cuase from what I read here it looks to me like that wheras I can't imagine that anyone in Europe holds their Nationals in higher esteem than Euros. I don't think in that case that 4CC would gain more prestige any soon.

Btw. I know it's my fault too, but we end up talking like 4CC is only US or NA which is not. I'm curious how 4CC looks from the point of view of Japan, China or Kazakhstan...

 

[Mathman]

I'm curious how 4CC looks from the point of view of Japan, China or Kazakhstan...

On the ladies side, I actually give a lot of credit to Mao Asada for advancing the prestige of Four Continents.

From its inception in 1999 to 2006 no U.S. national gold or silver medalist elected to compete at Four Continents. In 2007 the event was held in Colorado Springs U.S.A., where the USFSA is located, and as I recall there was a problem finding any city that was willing to host it (taking an expected financial loss). As I recall, the USFSA was eager to put its best foot forward and pressured the whole U.S. Nationals podium, Kimmie Meissner, Emily Hughes and Alissa Czisny to go. (Meissner and Hughes got first and second against an undistinguished international field.)

But the next year it was in Japan. Mao entered and won (in fact the podium was Asada, Rochette and Ando), and thereafter the event was well represented by top Asian skaters. Mao was on the podium for 6 straight years (2008-2013), winning three. In 2013 in Osaka, Japan swept the podium with Asada, Suzuki and Murakami.

 

[karne]

I'm curious how 4CC looks from the point of view of Japan, China or Kazakhstan...

Australia has - and will only have, for the foreseeable future, much as I love them all - but one spot at Worlds, and only then in ladies and men. But to Four Continents, we can send more, as long as they have the scores - and there are more than two who do. You will be treated greatly to the ongoing friendly battle between Brooklee and Kailani for surpremacy; if we are even allowed to send three ladies, you would see three such elegant, eloquent ladies to do my country proud. And Brendan might land the quads and the triple Axels, but at Four Continents he can be accompanied by one of our artistic, elegant young men whom you might not otherwise see.

Four Continents is a chance for those of the little countries to show off the depth of talent that they might have. It should be looked upon with pride, not derision!

 

[cathlen]

On the ladies side, I actually give a lot of credit to Mao Asada for advancing the prestige of Four Continents.

From its inception in 1999 to 2006 no U.S. national gold or silver medalist elected to compete at Four Continents. In 2007 the event was held in Colorado Springs U.S.A., where the USFSA is located, and as I recall there was a problem finding any city that was willing to host it (taking a expected financial loss). As I recall, the USFSA was eager to put its best foot forward and pressured the whole U.S. Nationals podium, Kimmie Meissner, Emily Hughes and Alissa Czisny to go. (Meissner and Hughes got first and second against an undistinguished international field.)

But the next year it was in Japan. Mao entered and won (in fact the podium was Asada, Rochette and Ando), and thereafter the event was well represented by top Asian skaters. Mao was on the podium for 6 straight years (2008-2013), winning three. In 2013 in Osaka, Japan swept the podium with Asada, Suzuki and Murakami.

Okey, so Japan takes 4CC seriously, at least for recent few years, good for them :thumbsup: I can't undesrtand why US skaters did not want participate in event that was held in US. The argument about flights, exhaustion & costs didn't apllied there. And since they are capable of winnig which come with money prizes and more recognition, I can''t understand this logic. Btw. Do I understand correctly that 4CC is held so ofen in Asia because NA doesn't want to organize them? And then they complain about distance... :disapp:

Australia has - and will only have, for the foreseeable future, much as I love them all - but one spot at Worlds, and only then in ladies and men. But to Four Continents, we can send more, as long as they have the scores - and there are more than two who do. You will be treated greatly to the ongoing friendly battle between Brooklee and Kailani for surpremacy; if we are even allowed to send three ladies, you would see three such elegant, eloquent ladies to do my country proud. And Brendan might land the quads and the triple Axels, but at Four Continents he can be accompanied by one of our artistic, elegant young men whom you might not otherwise see.

Four Continents is a chance for those of the little countries to show off the depth of talent that they might have. It should be looked upon with pride, not derision!

I'm very happy that Team Australia is so nicely represented in 4CC! As you noticed, fans are able to watch skaters the wouldn't be able anywehere else That's one of the reasons why it's worth watching events like Euros or 4CC. And definitely should be a prode for skaters :agree:

 

[tulosai]

I really don't see why Max not making GPF is a greater issue than Liza being out of it.

Right, or even poor neglected Tarasova/Mozorov who were only 3 points off of second place, but placed in 7th, and who almost certainly would have passed most of the teams who were ahead of them after the short in the free and certainly ended up no worse than 4th- but no one cares about them because they aren't as popular as Liza and don't have any individuals doggedly defending them as Max does. Just because they aren't as popular doesn't mean they aren't as hurt by this.

But at the end of the day as others have said we all just have to move forward. Considering the options actually available to the ISU, I think they did well and found a solution that is in fact fair. It being fair doesn't mean that everyone will like it, or that some skaters aren't hurt by what happened. Max is getting the most love in this thread but Liza, Tarasova/Mozorov, Peng/Zhang, Gillies/Porier, Coomes/Buckland and probably some others all were at least potentially hurt by what happened, and hurt the same amount by it since it either diminished or killed their chances of making it to the final. But at the end of the day, that is life.

 

[Mathman]

Okey, so Japan takes 4CC seriously, at least for recent few years, good for them :thumbsup: I can't undesrtand why US skaters did not want participate in event that was held in US.

I think it was kind of a chicken and egg thing. The top U.S. skaters did not want to take time out of their training for Worlds just to compete in this minor event. Conversely, because the top skaters didn't participate, the event did not carry any prestige. The chance to win prize money was not so important for the skaters at the very top who were gunning for Worlds, compared to second tier skaters who did not make the Worlds team anyway.

About prize money, I believe that it was considerably less until quite recently. The money has to come from some place, after all, and if the event could not make any money -- well, again, a chicken and egg.

A few years ago the ISU made a conscious effort to influence the top skaters to give 4CC a go, and at the same time to promote the European senior Bs. They gave a big cash bonus (I think it was $50,000) at the end of the season to the skaters that earned the most season rankings points. To win this prize you pretty much had to get points from either Europeans or 4CC. This was an incentive for top skaters not to skip 4CC, but it was discontinued after a couple of years, IIRC.

 

[Mathman]

Max is getting the most love in this thread but Liza, Tarasova/Mozorov, Peng/Zhang, Gillies/Porier, Coomes/Buckland and probably some others all were at least potentially hurt by what happened,...

I think one factor is that Max was riding so-o-o high and was cut down so suddenly and completely. Liza at least still has a chance. All that has to happen is that Pogorilya (or Osmond or Meite) jump up and keep Miyahara off the podium. Plus, Liza is already a world champion, whereas Max was the Little Engine that Could.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think it was kind of a chicken and egg thing. The top U.S. skaters did not want to take time out of their training for Worlds just to compete in this minor event. Conversely, because the top skaters didn't participate, the event did not carry any prestige. The chance to win prize money was not so important for the skaters at the very top who were gunning for Worlds, compared to second tier skaters who did not make the Worlds team anyway.

About prize money, I believe that it was considerably less until quite recently. The money has to come from some place, after all, and if the event could not make any money -- well, again, a chicken and egg.

A few years ago the ISU made a conscious effort to influence the top skaters to give 4CC a go, and at the same time to promote the European senior Bs. They gave a big cash bonus (I think it was $50,000) at the end of the season to the skaters that earned the most season rankings points. To win this prize you pretty much had to get points from either Europeans of 4CC. This was an incentive for top skaters not to skip 4CC, but it was discontinued after a couple of years, IIRC.

This is such a ridiculous attitude, loading everything on the disadvantaged 4CC skaters and not the suits who scheme against them and then sneer and shrug. The skaters are supposed to be responsible for the event's popularity and prestige with all the unfavorable conditions imposed?

Instead of increasing the 4CC prize money and addressing the difficult conditions for skaters to enter the 4CC, ISU increased the final total so the Euro skaters had a chance to earn even more without increasing any effort? Or to rake up more points at some Seniors B events, which they can easily attend and an existing advantage for the European skaters?

The ISU needs to lay a better egg.

I think one factor is that Max was riding so-o-o high and was cut down so suddenly and completely. Liza at least still has a chance. All that has to happen is that Pogorilya (or Osmond or Meite) jump up and keep Miyahara off the podium. Plus, Liza is already a world champion, whereas Max was the Little Engine that Could.

But GPF is for the Big Engines That Can. Very accomplished skaters like Liza can feel more deprived of a rightful and a very realizable opportunity than an aspiring LETC that has not proven he can. Yes, yes, it's a lost opportunity that was unfairly terminated, but it was terminated to everybody else who needed it as well.

 

[tulosai]

I think one factor is that Max was riding so-o-o high and was cut down so suddenly and completely. Liza at least still has a chance. All that has to happen is that Pogorilya (or Osmond or Meite) jump up and keep Miyahara off the podium. Plus, Liza is already a world champion, whereas Max was the Little Engine that Could.

True, though if Pogorilya is the one who jumps up, it can't be to a place higher than third or else Liza also can't go... if she's first (quite unlikely) or second (unlikely but not nearly as unlikely) Liza also won't make it. She basically needs the placements to work out in a very specific way for her to be able to go, and while the placements she needs people to have in and of themselves aren't unlikely, there is very little wiggle room in how it goes- if one person flips with another just so, she's out.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't see how the ISU had any choice but to make the decision they did. Unfortunate situation but the Skaters should not be penalized for something that was beyond any ones control. Moral of story is, you need to skate your best always. Many times the winner of the short has a big lead where no one can overtake them.

The decision has been made there will some that like the decision for many reasons to others who will criticize and say it is unfair. It is not an ideal and perfect solution. I don't agree it was the only decision, I even dislike how long it took which sort of loses its rationalization and it does seem somewhat arbitrary about the 1st alternate going if they were at TEB but it is an attempt to deal with the situation which quite frankly favours some and not others. Max isn't the only person affected - everyone really. And lest we forget the real injustice is what happened in Paris. I am glad Max continued on to tailinn and good for him although I am pretty sure Tailinn had some of the most inflated scores perhaps ever even.

 

[Skater Boy]

Right, or even poor neglected Tarasova/Mozorov who were only 3 points off of second place, but placed in 7th, and who almost certainly would have passed most of the teams who were ahead of them after the short in the free and certainly ended up no worse than 4th- but no one cares about them because they aren't as popular as Liza and don't have any individuals doggedly defending them as Max does. Just because they aren't as popular doesn't mean they aren't as hurt by this.

But at the end of the day as others have said we all just have to move forward. Considering the options actually available to the ISU, I think they did well and found a solution that is in fact fair. It being fair doesn't mean that everyone will like it, or that some skaters aren't hurt by what happened. Max is getting the most love in this thread but Liza, Tarasova/Mozorov, Peng/Zhang, Gillies/Porier, Coomes/Buckland and probably some others all were at least potentially hurt by what happened, and hurt the same amount by it since it either diminished or killed their chances of making it to the final. But at the end of the day, that is life.

So true. The most love goes to the one with the "loudest" fans. There are lots of "victims" of teb BUT that is life.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Some skaters already lost out winning the prize money at TEB they were used to expect given the normal opportunity. Then a few will lose out the opportunity to earn the bigger GPF prize money they could normally expect. I'm sure this makes life somewhat more difficult for them. But then again, it's life and I haven't heard any big name moaning about it.

 

[noskates]

.

although I am pretty sure Tailinn had some of the most inflated scores perhaps ever even.

AMEN!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup: