ISU makes decision on 2015-16 GPF selection

[iluvtodd]

In truth, when I hear the word "unfair" as applied to the TEB skaters, all I can think of is how much more horribly unfair it was for 100+ innocent people to die simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So I have a hard time agreeing when people talk about how unfair things are for the TEB skaters.

:agree:

 

[Shani]

It is unfair for all of the TEB skaters. The word is appropriate for a sporting event. I am not sure of the appropriate word to describe the injustice of the innocent dying in Paris.Unfair is not a strong enough word. Definitely a crime against humanity.

 

[minze]

Honestly, she really deserves it. She totally got Suzuki'd at Cup of China (as in Mao-Suzuki, NHK 2012).

Mao had a lead on the SP unless you think her winning the SP was unfair
In the LP Mao had landed her money jump and because of the mistakes lost the LP
Yes Mao has PCS advantage over Rika


Cup of China 2012 was a whole different scenario

 

[Tavi...]

Yes, the situation with TEB is more unfair. And here's why:

TEB was cancelled and all the skaters were prevented from competing, despite travelling to the arena and being ready, willing, and able to perform as originally scheduled. That was beyond the skater's control.

In the case of sickness or injury, the skater is able to carefully consider their personal condition/circumstances, and evaluate on their own whether they will be able to skate or not. If the skater feels they cannot compete, they will voluntarily withdraw. The skater is the one making the final decision here, and that's what makes it less 'unfair'.

I guess I disagree that the distinction you're making is at all relevant. A skater who withdraws may in fact not have had any other reasonable option. For example, if you withdraw a week in advance from NHK due to injury even though one of your stated goals was to make the GPF (eg, Jason), your choice may have been between withdrawing and risking season or career ending injury.

As to Misha, it doesn't sound like he had another option but to withdraw - he couldn't control when or whether he would be issued a visa. In both his case and Jason's, the fact that their decisions were made sooner rather than later may have been due to the magnitude of the problem / injury they were facing and perhaps their desire to "do the right thing" by withdrawing early enough for someone else to benefit.

And then there is Kaitlyn Hawayek, who withdrew during or at the end of the FS warmup at COC. Not only is it hard to believe she made a "considered decision," the withdrawal also impacted her partner.

To Karne's point below, I don't really think the fact that the TEB skaters were already psyching themselves up, warmed up and ready to go makes it more or less unfair - it simply means that the skaters had less time to process their disappointment, which in my mind is another thing entirely. To put it another way, I don't think the fact that Josh withdrew early from the entire GP series due to his concussion made it any less disappointing to him. And in truth, when people talk about unfairness, at bottom, it seems to come down to disappointment.

I don't think the ISU deliberately set out to "diss" Max. But I DO think that if it had been, say, Hanyu, or Chan, or Fernandez, or even Ten, they would have been much more inclined to come up with a method to ensure they made the final. Just as if Volosozhar and Trankov, or Duhamel and Radford had been in Tarasova/Morozov's place.



I disagree. It's not at all like Misha Ge's situation. Misha knew for quite some time that he would not be able to skate at TEB. I believe the withdrawal was announced in mid-September, and he likely saw the writing on the wall with the visa situation long before then. But the skaters who were actually AT TEB had actually shown up, practiced, drawn slots, warmed up, competed their shorts, gone to sleep, warmed up, and we know for a fact that many of the ladies were already in full competition makeup/dress and ready to skate by the time the decision was actually communicated to them - they were likely all psyching themselves up already. That is where the separation lies.

Well, it also impacts Liza, this year's world champion, who finished 2d at Skate Canada. Also, if I recall correctly, Patrick's finish at TEB didn't guarantee him a spot at the GPF; I'm pretty sure Jason could have knocked him out by taking silver. Unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible. Jason's total score at WTT was higher than Jin's at COC, without a quad. Had Kori decided to replace the 4T with a 2A and move the 3A to the first half with an easier entry, just for NHK, he might have taken silver, even quadless.

 

[Mathman]

In truth, when I hear the word "unfair" as applied to the TEB skaters, all I can think of is how much more horribly unfair it was for 100+ innocent people to die simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So I have a hard time agreeing when people talk about how unfair things are for the TEB skaters.

It is unfair for all of the TEB skaters. The word is appropriate for a sporting event. I am not sure of the appropriate word to describe the injustice of the innocent dying in Paris. Unfair is not a strong enough word. Definitely a crime against humanity.

Yes, quite. The question on the thread is not the unfairness of life but specifically, did the decision of the ISU treat some skaters unfairly. This is what I think.

1. There is a case to be made that the ISU decision advanced the fortunes of the TEB skaters "unfairly" vis-a-vis the skaters who did not compete in TEB. First, the TEB skaters were given full placement points for skating only a third of a normal competition. Second, the ISU bent over backward to assure that the TEB skaters did not run afoul of tie-breakers. Third, the extra spot was made available only to TEB skaters, not to others.

The answer to these charges, I think, is simply that no solution is perfect and the ISU did the best they could in a no-win situation.

2. Within the class of TEB skaters, all such skaters were subject to the same rules modifications and were treated the same. We cannot say that the ISU decision was "fair" to Chan but not to Aaron, for instance.

As for the claim that the ISU might have worked harder to get Chan into the finals if he had been farther behind, I don't think so. One monkey don't stop the show. (If it been Javi, though, they might have boosted him in to thank Barcelona for hosting the event.)

 

[ice coverage]

... In truth, when I hear the word "unfair" as applied to the TEB skaters, all I can think of is how much more horribly unfair it was for 100+ innocent people to die simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So I have a hard time agreeing when people talk about how unfair things are for the TEB skaters. ....

It is unfair for all of the TEB skaters. The word is appropriate for a sporting event. I am not sure of the appropriate word to describe the injustice of the innocent dying in Paris.Unfair is not a strong enough word. Definitely a crime against humanity.

Tavi, I do not think any of the TEB skaters ever will forget that many innocent lives were taken in Paris.
And I do not think any of us in this thread have lost perspective that the attacks had dire effects far more profound than the cancellation of TEB.
Agree with Shani that the word "unfair" in the context of discussing a sporting event is not dismissive of the magnitude of the horror in Paris.

---

Perhaps I should have phrased my question a little differently because I agree that the situations are different - and more to the point, so does the ISU, since the extra qualifying provision is only applicable to the TEB skaters.

What I meant, and really should have asked, is if the situation experienced by the TEB skaters was more unfair than the situation experienced by an ill or injured skater, or one with visa issues. And in my mind, it was not: whether due to food poisoning, a training injury, a visa problem, or a terrorist attack, in each case a skater who planned to compete was prevented from doing so by events outside his or her control. In this context, the timing seems irrelevant to me. ....

I believe that a lot of discussion has surrounded the TEB cancellation in large part b/c no pre-existing rules were in place as to how it should/would be handled.

Suppose instead that over the summer, the ISU had made an announcement that a set of special rules X, Y, and Z would take effect if any GP could not go forward after the SPs/SD. A certain amount of discussion immediately would have ensued here on GS ... but we would have been discussing the theoretical repercussions for a theoretical group of nameless, faceless skaters.
And when the day came that a state of emergency forced cancellation of TEB, we would have known what to expect. Even if some of us did not particularly like the special set of rules, I think a reaction of "it is what it is" would have been more common regarding the special rules.

The realities are very different:
Before and after the ISU announced its decision re TEB, we have known exactly which skaters competed there and what the stakes were for individual skaters. As ideas and opinions were posted on GS, we could not be certain of what to expect until the decision was announced. It's no wonder to me that the fairness/unfairness of possible options and the final decision received many pages of discussion.

A big difference for Josh/Jason/Kaitlyn/Misha is that existing rules were on the books for their situations."It is what it is" applies in all their cases, no matter how unfortunate the reasons for their withdrawals.
Before H/B withdrew prior to their FD, they knew for sure that they would have no opportunity to skate their FD at a later date.
Before Jason withdrew from NHK, he knew that he could not receive a bye to the GPF. Same for Josh before he withdrew from Skate Canada and NHK.
Before Misha withdrew from TEB, he knew that he would not receive a second GP assignment.

I sympathize with Jason's injury and Kaitlyn's bad luck to get food poisoning. And esp. with Josh's concussion and Misha's visa trouble.
But I don't see any need for the ISU to override its existing rules to give second chances to Josh, Jason, and H/B. Same for Misha (but wouldn't be a bad thing if the ISU added a new rule preventing a repeat of his situation for him or anyone else).

 

[Winnie_20]

(If it been Javi, though, they might have boosted him in to thank Barcelona for hosting the event.)

... and even that would probably be debatable, given that the event is more or less sold out. I doubt they would lose much money if some people decided not to show up because Javier Fernandez wouldn't be skating.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think Tavi's point isn't to try to determine which scenario is more fair or unfair, but simply stating that skaters deal with competition scenarios that are out of their control quite often -- the scenario at TEB is probably the most extreme (and hence needed the most handling).

Obviously something had to be done with TEB, cause there was no precedent to resolve this ,unlike an injury/sickness (you withdraw).

What it comes down to is as a competitior you do the best you can to determine your own destiny but that any number of scenarios could come up that could impact the final result. Sadly a terrorist attack was the scenario here. But like anything else, you got to roll with the punches and move forward.

 

[mrrice]

Perhaps another reason it is such a grievance to me is that Max WON his first GP of the season. He wasn't hanging onto a GPF chance with a second or third, he WON Skate America, and he won it well. But the vicious backlash and anger that he got for that seemed unwarranted and unreasonable. And look now, as soon as he wins Tallinn, there are people in here proclaiming that he only won Tallinn because of inflation. That Max now has an unjustified seventh place as his official finish at TEB - thus missing the GPF - only adds fuel to the haters' fire. Indeed, one poster in the TEB threads was GLOATING that Max was going to miss the GPF. And now Max will be the only GP winner this season to miss the GPF. And it's not his fault.



Well, I suppose it's like having skaters that come from Arizona and Texas, yes? It's such a shame that you were stuck in dirty cramped Sydney for the time you were here. There's so much more to it than that.

How on earth could anyone hate Max. He seems like a humble, hard working young Man. Here's an example of how humble Max is. From Skate America Kiss n Cry. Watch his little wave and his "Hang Loose" hand signal. BTW Listen to the way the B.ESP guys say Thom Z's name. It's hilarious......

Skate America SP:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNQlsxRLBBQ

 

[sabinfire]

I think Tavi's point isn't to try to determine which scenario is more fair or unfair, but simply stating that skaters deal with competition scenarios that are out of their control quite often -- the scenario at TEB is probably the most extreme (and hence needed the most handling).

Tavi was specifically asking the question about which scenario was more unfair, and asking someone to answer that question (because they have asked this question before and didn't get an answer from anyone). Please see the quotes below for context. As you can see, Tavi asks if the TEB skaters 'deserve more consideration', or if the TEB skaters situation 'was more unfair' than other scenarios.

I've asked this before without getting an answer: for those of you who believe that TEB skaters were unfairly deprived of opportunities, why do you think they deserve more consideration than the many skaters who have lost opportunities due to illness / injury?

What I meant, and really should have asked, is if the situation experienced by the TEB skaters was more unfair than the situation experienced by an ill or injured skater, or one with visa issues.

 

[Mrs. P]

Ah I see, but even so, I think I see what she was getting at.

ETA: And I think in asking those questions, I really think there was quite a bit of hyperbole. But that's just how I saw it.

 

[sabinfire]

Ah I see, but even so, I think I see what she was getting at.

They asked for a differing opinion, so I gave mine.

I don't think the issue here is the lack of understanding for particular viewpoints.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Mao had a lead on the SP unless you think her winning the SP was unfair
In the LP Mao had landed her money jump and because of the mistakes lost the LP
Yes Mao has PCS advantage over Rika

Cup of China 2012 was a whole different scenario

Mao winning the SP was fair given the 3A (but also consider Rika actually went clean with a 3F+3T just a "!" flatz, whereas Mao had a UR 3F+3L and a "e" flutz). Mao deserved the segment but I thought the gap would be tighter with Rika getting higher PCS than what she was given.

In the LP I thought the "e" call on Rika's second lutz was harsh (and weird, given she got a ! earlier in the program), and that cost her the win... along with her PCS being a bit lower than I thought she deserved. Rika landed 6 clean triples (second "e" lutz, aside) in a close to clean skate... Mao popped jumps and fell and had URs - only 4 triples, even though one was a great 3A to open and was slightly overscored on PCS given her multiple errors (SP lead notwithstanding, it's not what I would deem a "gold-worthy" skate... and it's fine to win with many errors, as long as your opponents aren't skating clean themselves).


It wasn't as blatantly bad as NHK 2012, but arguably Rika should have won with her two almost clean programs whereas Mao landed 3As in both but also made errors in both.

 

[Mrs. P]

They asked for a differing opinion, so I gave mine.

I don't think the issue here is the lack of understanding for particular viewpoints.

In any case, I do agree with Tavi. I do think this was an unfortunate extraneous circumstance of great magnitude that clearly needed resolution. At the same time, on a bare level, the outcome for the skaters is similar to others were not able to compete due to differing circumstances out of their control.

I do think what the ISU came up with acknowledges both points.

 

[sabinfire]

In any case, I do agree with Tavi. I do think this was an unfortunate extraneous circumstance of great magnitude that clearly needed resolution. At the same time, on a bare level, the outcome for the skaters is similar to others were not able to compete due to differing circumstances out of their control.

Completely disagree. The outcome for TEB skaters is quite a bit different than the outcome for ill/injured skaters.

TEB skaters still have their SP scores count for final standings, receive GP points, and could still qualify for the GPF in a 'special' 7th spot.

A skater who voluntarily withdraws from an event for any reason doesn't receive anything.

Very different.

 

[Mrs. P]

Completely disagree. The outcome for TEB skaters is quite a bit different than the outcome for ill/injured skaters.

TEB skaters still have their SP scores count for final standings, receive GP points, and could still qualify for the GPF in a 'special' 7th spot.

A skater who voluntarily withdraws from an event for any reason doesn't receive anything.

Very different.

Yes you are right. I guess the outcome I meant was similar was that they were unable to compete/finish the competition and perhaps lost a chance for gpf.

But the extraneous circumstance for the TEB did produce a different final result, which I'm fine with because of the magnitude of the circumstance.

 

[sabinfire]

Yes you are right. I guess the outcome I meant was similar was that they were unable to compete/finish the competition and perhaps lost a chance for gpf.

I still don't see the similarity. A skater who voluntarily withdraws from an event doesn't receive anything and wouldn't make the GPF because they didn't receive any credit for that event, whereas all the TEB skaters received credit for competing.

TEB would only be similar if the event was cancelled before it started, or the TEB results were completely thrown out, giving nobody credit. That outcome would be similar to a skater withdrawing.

 

[ice coverage]

... To Karne's point below, I don't really think the fact that the TEB skaters were already psyching themselves up, warmed up and ready to go makes it more or less unfair - it simply means that the skaters had less time to process their disappointment, which in my mind is another thing entirely. To put it another way, I don't think the fact that Josh withdrew early from the entire GP series due to his concussion made it any less disappointing to him. And in truth, when people talk about unfairness, at bottom, it seems to come down to disappointment. ... .

Continuing everyone's well-meaning exchange of views :

Don't want to put words in karne's mouth. But IMO, her point was not about disappointment.

Until the very moment of cancellation, the TEB skaters were fully "invested" (my word) -- both physically and mentally -- in competing in the free skates and FD on Nov 14.
Josh was not invested in Skate Canada and in NHK in the same way (although I'm sure he remains very disappointed that his concussion forced him to withdraw from both GPs).

Ever since they received their assignments to TEB, the skaters (with the help of their coaches) no doubt had put a lot of careful thought and diligent training into being optimally prepared to compete specifically on Nov 14. In the case of the TEB ladies, they were 100% ready to go in costume and full h/mu.

On the morning of Nov 14 (after the attacks on Nov 13), the ISU tweeted the following:

ISU Figure Skating ‏@ISU_Figure

ISU & @ffsportsdeglace want to continue with competition #GPBordeaux #TEB15 after #ParisAttacks. Final decision up to French authorities.
12:27 AM - 14 Nov 2015 [time-stamps are for Pacific time zone in the U.S.]
https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/665445933035991040​

ISU Figure Skating ‏@ISU_Figure

Competition at #GPBordeaux #TEB15 continues Saturday. Minute of silence will be held, ISU & @ffsportsdeglace decided with French authorities
2:06 AM - 14 Nov 2015 [time-stamp is for Pacific time zone in the U.S.]
https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/665470748824350722​

The ISU sent out an official media advisory with the same information as above that TEB would go forward with a moment of silence.​

Then approx. 90 minutes after the second tweet came official word of the abrupt cancellation.

https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/665492141783797760​

I do think it is reasonable that in the absence of any existing rule that applied, the ISU chose to give credit to the 50+ TEB skaters for the competition.
(Although the details of the credit are more agreeable to some of us than to others .)

 

[Skater Boy]

:agree:

exactly!!!

 

[Tavi...]

Okay, my iphone ate my last post so I guess I'll try again. Forgive me for not quoting you all but it would make my post a mile long. And I'm lazy. By the way, @sabinfire, just to let you know, I'm a she.

Mrs P pretty admirably summed up my point of view with respect to the unfairness of TEB versus the situations faced by skaters like Kaitlyn, Jason and Misha. To be clear, I agree with the ISU's decision to provide an extra opportunity for the TEB skater to qualify for the GPF, and I don't think that opportunity should have been extended to those who had to withdraw for other reasons. But I don't think the situation faced by the TEB skaters was inherently less fair than the situations faced by Misha et al. for reasons I already stated. And I simply don't think the fact that the TEB skaters were at the venue ready to skate makes a difference in terms of fairness, especially when you consider that the competition was canceled due to a terrorist attack, not on a whim.

That's kind of the point I was trying to make in comparing those who died in Paris to the TEB skaters. I do think it's important to put loss of a trip to the GPF - because that's really what this is all about - into perspective. Shani, I'm sorry if you feel my word choice was inappropriate. I think that what happened in Paris was far worse than unfair, but I think it's unfair to die just because you decided to eat out rather than staying home. And in that sense, I think my word choice - and the comparison - was appropriate.