Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, he did get 98.56 without the falls.

As a general rule, if you fall twice, you shouldn't be scoring 95% on presentation. It would be like getting 5.9 for technical merit with two falls.

And if you fall in an SP, you shouldn't be scoring 102 points on presentation (47.77 PCS - 95.54%) either.

It's fine if you assert that Hanyu should have won but it's hilariously delusional to suggest there wasn't egregious overscoring.

And no, "well he usually gets ### when he skates clean so ### minus 2-3 pts PCS a couple points less is fine", isn't a good justification... It wasn't fine with Chan and it isn't fine with Hanyu. Could you imagine if people tried to justify Chan's 2013 Worlds FS PCS - 89.23 - by saying "well, when he skated clean at TEB 2013 it was 96.50" so his PCS at 2013 Worlds was totally fine. Or justified Hanyu's PCS at CoC of 84 with 5 falls as justifiable because it's "well it's over 90 when he goes clean".

It is an awful precedent if people start normalizing falls and thinking it's okay for skaters to score 95% PCS with a major error(s).

 

[eta]

Hanyu's by fav my favorite skaters but CSG is right, that was not a 95.5 skate, lol. Perhaps Yuzu wasn't as overscored as some Russians but he was a bit.

I did watch the Russian ladies, but I don't really follow the ladies so I don't really know about overscoring in that discipline. xD

As a general rule, if you fall twice, you shouldn't be scoring 95% on presentation. It would be like getting 5.9 for technical merit with two falls.

And if you fall in an SP, you shouldn't be scoring 102 points on presentation (47.77 PCS - 95.54%) either.

It's fine if you assert that Hanyu should have won but it's hilariously delusional to suggest there wasn't egregious overscoring.

And no, "well he usually gets ### when he skates clean so ### minus 2-3 pts PCS a couple points less is fine", isn't a good justification... It wasn't fine with Chan and it isn't fine with Hanyu. Could you imagine if people tried to justify Chan's 2013 Worlds FS PCS - 89.23 - by saying "well, when he skated clean at TEB 2013 it was 96.50" so his PCS at 2013 Worlds was totally fine. Or justified Hanyu's PCS at CoC of 84 with 5 falls as justifiable because it's "well it's over 90 when he goes clean".

It is an awful precedent if people start normalizing falls and thinking it's okay for skaters to score 95% PCS with a major error(s).

Hmm that's very good to know, thanks!

I usually just compare a skater's PCS to his previous PCS or other skaters' PCS (from the same season), usually Javi's scores in Yuzu's case since they are close regarding rankings and such.

Though are you saying that falls affect PCS more than pops? Because I normally watch BESP and the commentators are always saying how important rotation is, so I assumed that rotate then fall is much better than not rotate and land. (Or is that specific to TES only?)

 

[MaxSwagg]

I did watch the Russian ladies, but I don't really follow the ladies so I don't really know about overscoring in that discipline. xD




Hmm that's very good to know, thanks!

I usually just compare a skater's PCS to his previous PCS or other skaters' PCS (from the same season), usually Javi's scores in Yuzu's case since they are close regarding rankings and such.

Though are you saying that falls affect PCS more than pops? Because I normally watch BESP and the commentators are always saying how important rotation is, so I assumed that rotate then fall is much better than not rotate and land. (Or is that specific to TES only?)

They're saying rotation is more important for TES (the base value of the jump). Judges kind of do what they want with PCS for every skater. Like 6.0, reputation still plays a part in the "presentation" mark(s). Top guys can fall or have errors and still get marks others only dream about. Lolol

 

[Interspectator]

I made myself watch Yuzu's Japan Nats LP again and surprisingly, it was not that bad. -He fought through at the last half but kept it together as much as he could in his exhausted state. His scores were inflated beyond what is remotely necessary and there was no need to do that, but he still won the title fairly. No one was robbed and I agree with the podium. Except, perhaps, Mura should have been Silver. Shoma's Consistency Vs Mura's Inconsistency was a major player in the close finish. It will not make a difference in who makes the World team, Yuzu and Shoma.

Yuzu had harsh words for himself in the interview. "I'm boiling and burning with regret/frustration, it was awful. I will try harder." Reporters tried to cheer him up, congratulating him on his 4 titles in a row, but he said "Yes, that is something and results matter. But content, performance and leaving an impression on people's hearts also matters."

 

[mrrice]

As a general rule, if you fall twice, you shouldn't be scoring 95% on presentation. It would be like getting 5.9 for technical merit with two falls.

And if you fall in an SP, you shouldn't be scoring 102 points on presentation (47.77 PCS - 95.54%) either.

It's fine if you assert that Hanyu should have won but it's hilariously delusional to suggest there wasn't egregious overscoring.

And no, "well he usually gets ### when he skates clean so ### minus 2-3 pts PCS a couple points less is fine", isn't a good justification... It wasn't fine with Chan and it isn't fine with Hanyu. Could you imagine if people tried to justify Chan's 2013 Worlds FS PCS - 89.23 - by saying "well, when he skated clean at TEB 2013 it was 96.50" so his PCS at 2013 Worlds was totally fine. Or justified Hanyu's PCS at CoC of 84 with 5 falls as justifiable because it's "well it's over 90 when he goes clean".

It is an awful precedent if people start normalizing falls and thinking it's okay for skaters to score 95% PCS with a major error(s).

This entire statement is true. Especially this sentence " It is an awful precedent if people start normalizing falls and thinking it's okay for skaters to score 95% PCS with a major error(s"

Imagine being a coach and hearing your student say "Hanyu got a got a 95 and he fell TWICE!! I can't believe I only got a 90."

Hanyu's a great skater and he deserves all the big scores he "Earns" He does not however, need to be "Held Up" or gifted any undeserved scores.

 

[YesWay]

As a general rule, if you fall twice, you shouldn't be scoring 95% on presentation.

Where is this "rule" written in the ISU documentation?
Or did you make it up, to suit your ongoing pro-Chan anti-Hanyu agenda?

Only, I do not see any rule in the docs, saying that falls specifically affect PCS.
I only see falls being punished in the TES (minus GoE, and 1 point deduction).

As far as I can tell, the judges can choose at their discretion, to reduce PCS if they feel that falls were highly disruptive to the overall program, such that it starts to fall apart. But even this is not actually written into the rules.

And in this case, the falls hardly affected the rest of the program at all - never mind enough to make it "unravel".

Having said that, I think there may be actually be an argument for inflated PCS in this case - just not on that basis. And certainly not on the basis of a made-up rule "2 falls means PCS can't be 95%".

It would be like getting 5.9 for technical merit with two falls.

Newsflash: the 6.0 system is no longer in use... and IJS/CoP is not the same thing under a different name.

 

[YesWay]

Top guys can fall or have errors and still get marks others only dream about.

That's because falls and errors are generally punished in TES, not PCS.

You (and mrrice, and CanadianSkaterGuy) might find it informative to take a look at the criteria used to determine PCS sometime:
They're in the PDF's at the bottom of this ISU page:

Falls are not mentioned, nor are errors. Nor are there any penalties listed for such things.

The criteria are applied to the overall program, and scores given to reward various aspects of the skaters overall performance. You should be able to see, that skaters can indeed earn high PCS scores in spite of errors and falls... according to those criteria. And it doesn't necessarily mean that reputation, inflation, favouritism, etc was involved.

And this is no accident. PCS and TES are supposed to be largely independent, scoring different aspects.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

How is this pro-Chan anti-Hanyu? I said specifically it wasn't okay with Chan and it isn't okay with Hanyu.

Yuzu shouldn't be ashamed with his performance - he tried as much as he could and was due for a non-perfect skate. However I'm quite ashamed with Japan for that type of scoring. Normally I consider Japan a bastion of impartiality (at least comparatively), fairness, and marking their skaters with a level of criticism they would face on an international level and scores that do not "inflate" (pun intended) their ego.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's because falls and errors are generally punished in TES, not PCS.

You (and mrrice) might find it informative to take a look at the criteria used to determine PCS sometime:
They're in the PDF's at the bottom of this ISU page:

Falls are not mentioned, nor are errors. Nor are there any penalties listed for such things.

The criteria are applied to the overall program, and scores given to reward various aspects of the skaters overall performance. You should be able to see, that skaters can indeed earn high PCS scores in spite of errors and falls... according to those criteria. And it doesn't necessarily mean that reputation, inflation, favouritism, etc was involved.

You honestly believe reputation, inflation and favouritism weren't a factor in Hanyu's 95.58 PCS?

One can earn higher scores than other skaters due to higher quality of skating but that performance was not worthy of 96 PCS.

If you honestly believe falls should not compromise PCS, and don't affect the level of performance, then you would agree that a skater can fall on every single jumping pass and still earn 95 PCS?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I did watch the Russian ladies, but I don't really follow the ladies so I don't really know about overscoring in that discipline. xD




Hmm that's very good to know, thanks!

I usually just compare a skater's PCS to his previous PCS or other skaters' PCS (from the same season), usually Javi's scores in Yuzu's case since they are close regarding rankings and such.

Though are you saying that falls affect PCS more than pops? Because I normally watch BESP and the commentators are always saying how important rotation is, so I assumed that rotate then fall is much better than not rotate and land. (Or is that specific to TES only?)

A pop and a fall are major errors.

95 PCS is essentially 6.0 these days. It is reserved for perfectly clean performances that have zero major errors. Only a handful of men have ever achieved that.

A performance with 2 major errors and getting a near perfect score is ridiculous. It's not a rule but it's the general accepted rule that if somebody makes major errors you don't give them an essentially perfect score. Certainly not a 9.43 on performance and execution.

Giving 95.58 for performance when the skater had 2 falls, because the skater clean "normally gets 98, so a few points less makes sense", is like giving 0/-1 GOE for quad/axel falls, just because of the skater who happened to commit them, "normally gets +2/+3 on that quad so with a -3 reduction, the final GOE for that quad fall should be 0/-1". It's ridiculous.

Nobody is arguing with the results (except maybe Mura, lol), but the Japan was like the last country with decent home judging and it's really disheartening to fans (and I'm sure Hanyu's competitors) to see scores like that when he commits errors like that.

 

[Sydney Rose]

You honestly believe reputation, inflation and favouritism weren't a factor in Hanyu's 95.58 PCS?

Of course those were factors in his scoring. But why should the Japanese treat their top skater at nationals any differently than Americans or Canadians or any other country would? Why would they want to put Hanyu at a disadvantage going into worlds?

That is how the system works and how the game is played. The important question to ask is not whether Hanyu's score was too high but whether he deserved to be in first place. And the obvious answer to that question is yes.

 

[4everchan]

brings back the issue some of us have with PCS....

i'd give Hanyu or anyone who has major errors way less in Performance and Execution....

however, if their skating skills or transitions aren't affected then, I'd leave them up....

Choreography? depends on how the errors really affect the program...

but ... nah... all pcs are marked more or less the same... i think that they are used as a " ranking scale" at this point... not really as a real scoring device.... and I find this sad as it is actually what we ddin't like in 6.0

at least here, the ranking scale used, seems correct

 

[YesWay]

You honestly believe reputation, inflation and favouritism weren't a factor in Hanyu's 95.58 PCS?

One can earn higher scores than other skaters due to higher quality of skating but that performance was not worthy of 96 PCS.

If you honestly believe falls should not compromise PCS, and don't affect the level of performance, then you would agree that a skater can fall on every single jumping pass and still earn 95 PCS?

It's not a question of what I "believe".

It's a question of figuring out if WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE RULES was applied appropriately.

Read the rules. I assume you haven't, because otherwise you wouldn't keep banging on about falls in relation to PCS, even though there is no mention of falls in the PCS documentation. As I already said, the only way I can see falls affecting PCS is if they become sufficiently disruptive to the overall program.

If you can point out in terms of the PCS criteria... discrepencies in the scores/protocols vs what we see in the video footage of that performance... compared with other performances at this competition and others... then you will have a credible case for your overscoring claims. Then you can claim reputation, inflation, whatever is at play.

Make a proper case and I'll be all ears.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Of course those were factors in his scoring. But why should the Japanese treat their top skater at nationals any differently than Americans or Canadians or any other country would? Why would they want to put Hanyu at a disadvantage going into worlds?

That is how the system works and how the game is played. The important question to ask is not whether Hanyu's score was too high but whether he deserved to be in first place. And the obvious answer to that question is yes.

The difference is, Hanyu fell twice and got 95.58. Obvious visible errors and a near perfect presentation score.

Compare that to Kovtun who was also ridiculously inflated on PCS but at least he gave a clean performance.

If you show both performances to anyone who wanted to watch skating you could theoretically justify To them why Kovtun got 93% presentation (an excessively high score but he was clean with 3 quads) but practically impossible to justify Hanyu getting scored 95.58 (an excessively high score with 2 falls).

In every other judged sport, a fall would NEVER give you even close to 95% marks.

95.58 is in the 99th percentile of all skaters. A program with 2 falls is in the 99th percentile of all freeskates ever executed (in Japan or otherwise) and that is ludicrous.

And as mentioned, it's particularly horrible for his competitors who struggle to get 90 PCS - and only if they're absolutely clean with exceedingly high difficulty -!and then their competitor falls twice and gets 95.58.

 

[YesWay]

i'd give Hanyu or anyone who has major errors way less in Performance and Execution....

I don't think it's as simple as "major errors" = "way less PE"

Performance/Execution
Definition: is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as
they translate the intent of the music and choreography.

Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement
in Pair Skating and Ice Dancing.

Criteria:

• Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement. In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.
• Carriage. Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.
• Style and individuality/personality. Style is the distinctive use of line and movement a inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.
• Clarity of movement. Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement.
• Variety and contrast. Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body parts as well as the use of contrast.
• Projection. The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.

It should be pretty obvious that skaters can meet those criteria for their overall program, and even be rated "outstanding", regardless of errors.

On the other hand, errors could be so numerous and/or severe, that they DO affect the above criteria.

It has to be evaluated case-by-case...
...and it is subject to human judgement.
It's not so simple.

And where some people may see PCS "overscoring", "reputation", "inflation" etc when a skater made errors... I mostly (but not always) see judges prefering to only punish skaters once (in TES) for their mistakes... rather than twice (in both TES and PCS), except for the most severe and disruptive cases.

 

[AprilS]

The difference is, Hanyu fell twice and got 95.58. Obvious visible errors and a near perfect presentation score.

Compare that to Kovtun who was also ridiculously inflated on PCS but at least he gave a clean performance.

If you show both performances to anyone who wanted to watch skating you could theoretically justify To them why Kovtun got 93% presentation (an excessively high score but he was clean with 3 quads) but practically impossible to justify Hanyu getting scored 95.58 (an excessively high score with 2 falls).

In every other judged sport, a fall would NEVER give you even close to 95% marks.

95.58 is in the 99th percentile of all skaters. A program with 2 falls is in the 99th percentile of all freeskates ever executed (in Japan or otherwise) and that is ludicrous.

And as mentioned, it's particularly horrible for his competitors who struggle to get 90 PCS - and only if they're absolutely clean with exceedingly high difficulty -!and then their competitor falls twice and gets 95.58.

I thought the marks were inflated but not as outrageous as you make it seem. Personally I would have given him 90-92. Honestly not that horrible.

 

[4everchan]

i know the rules... with a performance that contained 2 falls and scratchy landings in the second half, as he was clearly exhausted, i don't think it's worth 96 % in PCS.... that's all. human judgment you said, here's mine, for all it's worth

think of it this way too... when Hanyu does skate flawlessly, he doesn't get much more than 96 PCS.... what kind of message is overscoring a less stellar performance sending... when if he skates as flawlessly as in NHK and GPF he cannot get way more??? the way the judges are scoring nowadays for PCS is flawed

I don't think it's as simple as "major errors" = "way less PE"

Performance/Execution
Definition: is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as
they translate the intent of the music and choreography.

Execution: is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. This includes harmony of movement
in Pair Skating and Ice Dancing.

Criteria:

• Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement. In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.
• Carriage. Carriage is a trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.
• Style and individuality/personality. Style is the distinctive use of line and movement a inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.
• Clarity of movement. Clarity is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement.
• Variety and contrast. Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body parts as well as the use of contrast.
• Projection. The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.

It should be pretty obvious that skaters can meet those criteria for their overall program, and even be rated "outstanding", regardless of errors.

On the other hand error(s) could be so numerous and/or severe, that they DO affect the above criteria.

It has to be evaluated case-by-case...
...and it is subject to human judgement.
It's not so simple.

And where some people may see PCS "overscoring", "reputation", "inflation" etc when a skater made errors... I mostly (but not always) see judges prefering to only punish skaters once (in TES) for their mistakes... rather than twice (in both TES and PCS), except for the most severe and disruptive cases.

 

[YesWay]

In every other judged sport, a fall would NEVER give you even close to 95% marks.

Newsflash: Figure skating is not "every other judged sport", and it has different rules to every other judged sport.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's not a question of what I "believe".

It's a question of figuring out if WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE RULES was applied appropriately.

Read the rules. I assume you haven't, because otherwise you wouldn't keep banging on about falls in relation to PCS, even though there is no mention of falls in the PCS documentation. As I already said, the only way I can see falls affecting PCS is if they become sufficiently disruptive to the overall program.

If you can point out in terms of the PCS criteria... discrepencies in the scores/protocols vs what we see in the video footage of that performance... compared with other performances at this competition and others... then you will have a credible case for your overscoring claims. Then you can claim reputation, inflation, whatever is at play.

Make a proper case and I'll be all ears.

I don't need a more proper case than 2 falls shouldn't be 95.58 PCS. But if you want the main reason it's the fact that falls DO affect the presentation of a program. Same way an ugly position or a meaningless movement should be detrimental to presentation scores.

And how do you define "disruptive", because it seems to me that when Hanyu/Chan falls it isn't disruptive but when others falls all of a sudden the PCS takes a hit. It's a fall - it is a visible error... And two falls at that. By definition, they ARE disruptions. I'm so sick of people trying to trivialize a major error like a fall by saying "Well, it wasn't disruptive".

So a skater can have 8 falls on all their jump elements and as long they "aren't disruptive" to you and doesn't affect the rest of the performance and choreography, then 100 PCS is theoretically still possible to you? Because technical errors don't affect presentation/PCS?

I think I should end this argument with you in particular though because anyone who legitimately thinks 95.58 PCS with 2 falls is acceptable under rules of how skating should be judged isn't worth discussing this stuff with. And patronizing me by saying I haven't read the rules (which I have) isn't helping either. Done with you.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I thought the marks were inflated but not as outrageous as you make it seem. Personally I would have given him 90-92. Honestly not that horrible.

90-92 would have been fine. 95.58 is outrageous, even with home inflation. Sends a terrible message to any viewer and to any competitor of his.