Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[YesWay]

i am not focusing only on mistakes hence why I would mark PCS at the 85-86 range... a great skater, with a fantastic program which could earn him close to 100 when skated flawlessly but when there are major mistakes and a bunch of minor iffy things in the second half, why give close to 100???? make it real... just like in school...

85-86 is still a good old A ... does Hanyu deserve A + today?

But now we're into the realms of "how the system should work" vs "how the system does work today".

As I said - since I do not recall seeing a large 10% drop in PCS happening to anyone after a couple of mistakes in one program, I do not think that IS how the system works today...

ie. that a) PCS is indeed judged more on what the skater did in the program as a whole, with much less focus on a couple of mistakes (except in highly disruptive cases, unlike this one)... and b) those mistakes normally being punished in TES instead.

The question is - was there overscoring here, according to the current system?
Not "If we had a different system, would we give less points?"

 

[4everchan]

so you think close to 96 was deserved? then we simply will disagree respectfully based on "today's" system, i'd still go with about 89-91.

I agree that i am perhaps too idealistic with how i would like PCS to work out...

But now we're into the realms of "how the system should work" vs "how the system does work today".

As I said - since I do not recall seeing a large 10% drop in PCS happening to anyone after a couple of mistakes in one program, I do not think that IS how the system works today.

And the question is - was there overscoring here, according to the current system?
Not "If we had a different system, would we give less points?"

 

[YesWay]

so you think close to 96 was deserved? then we simply will disagree respectfully based on "today's" system, i'd still go with about 89-91.

I agree that i am perhaps too idealistic with how i would like PCS to work out...

Close to 96? Depends on how close is "close"

He already had his PCS reduced vs his competitions where he clearly skated better.
So, should it be reduced even further? Personally, I think there is a case for that.

But I don't think by very much - on the basis of how PCS has been applied elsewhere in this competition, and in previous competitions. Otherwise we'd be going the other way, being overly harsh, or treating this competition differently to others. And also on the basis that I don't think his overall program suffered or was disrupted that much from the falls - I still think he still delivered vs the PCS criteria to a very high standard overall...

 

[YesWay]

it's just sending the wrong message to give scores that are near perfect to someone's pretty much worst skate of the season in LP

This is not the message it sends though... and this score was not "near perfect"!

"Perfect" free skate score was 219, at the GP Final.
Score for free skate at this competition was 183, which is a long way from that.

So the message to skaters is:
a) Mistakes DO matter, and they WILL be punished - in the technical score

b) Do not despair when you make mistakes, or indeed - if you don't have the technical content to begin with (eg. don't have 3+ quads at your disposal). Because you can still rack up points, and remain competitive, by earning high PCS.

And I think this is the right message.

 

[treeloving]

Then why not say so instead of "let's hope he manages to stay far from others...wouldn't want anyone injured" that can be easily misconstrued considering your avowed intent? I think you can as you are obviously articulate.

May be he/she thinks Yuzuru is cursed hahahaha

BTW, Chan fan here..... you not gonna miss any opportunity don't you?

 

[Silvia451]

Team Japan at Worlds: Hanyu, Uno
Four Continents Team Japan: Mura, Tanaka, Uno

 

[melmel]

Team Japan at Worlds: Hanyu, Uno
Four Continents Team Japan: Mura, Tanaka, Uno

I'm bummed that Daisuke didn't made the 4CC but great for Keiji ! I'm also relieved that Yuzu won't go to 4CC.

 

[Silvia451]

Yes, Daisuke started the season very well.

But I'm very happy for Keiji and I hope he'll do well at 4CC

 

[shiroKJ]

May be he/she thinks Yuzuru is cursed hahahaha

BTW, Chan fan here..... you not gonna miss any opportunity don't you?

Lol they're like weeds. Some people are too transparent, guess the last two international outings were too much for their body and mind to handle and they needed an outlet.

Glancing through this thread, I just wanted to say how ridiculous some of you sound. Microanalyzing NATIONAL SCORES? Lol the same type of nationals where some skaters who average 7's on the international stage can get 9's and 10's in? As long as the placements aren't outrageous why bother?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Dear Chan fans who finally got a little opportunity to say something negative about Yuzuru, I will wait patiently for Canadian nationals and will continue discussion after Chan's scores

I'm fairly certain that if Chan falls in his SP, his PCS won't be 47.77. but if it did happen that would also be very bad judging.

And Japan, being supposedly the most fair judging (compared to others) just opened the floodgates on PCS. It will be ridiculous come US and Canadian nationals because the judges will be thinking, "Well if JAPAN can judge like that, it's open season for us." And they will want to pump their skaters' PCS to be comparable to their skaters' main competitors and do the same strategy of inflated Nationals scoring so that it will be "brought down" come Worlds.

Hanyu got 47.77 PCS SP, so then at worlds if he falls again he will be brought down to a 45. But if Hanyu were fairly scored at Japanese Nats with a score of 44-45 PCS, then if he fell at Worlds his score would be brought down to a 42-43.

And again people need to stop comparing max score. Like 183 with 2 falls is ridiculous. Nobody would ever justify some of Chan's/Hanyu's past scores like at 2013 Worlds and Cup of China 2014 by comparing it to their max score and saying "well it's X number of points less than their maximum".

Lmao and people want to actually make PCS worth MORE... So scores like this develop an even greater unfair gap for the top skaters.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Just looking at the protocols. Judges gave Hanyu 9.75 for Transitions in his SP despite missing his 4S spread eagle exit. So obviously they took that into account and docked a whole 0.25. :agree:

Although -2's for a 3A<(fall), and +2s for a series with a UR half loop, pretty much says it all.

He scored numerous 9.50/9.75's and even a 10.00 with two falls. Four jumping passes with errors and 95.58 PCS. Even Chan in his own nationals or otherwise has never received marks like that.

For a nationals this was bad judging. For a JAPANESE nationals it was egregiously bad judging.

 

[tzazu]

Omg, I left this thread in 9 page (and it was a really nice thread) and when I come back it's turned into a ridiculous and repetitive discussion topic: Hope moderators close it, as they did with the other

 

[wookchub]

^ tbh

This discussion is basically 'Yuzuru shouldn't have won by 19 points, he should have only won by 13 at most'. The free skate was a good fight to overcome tiredness for several of the top 10. Hoping they all get a good rest, in particular those heading to Worlds and 4CC.

 

[Plumededragon]

It's always the same people who will come and whine and cry at Yuzu's "unfair" scoring. Those people need to avoid hanging in Russian and American Nationals threads if they don't want a heart attack. Oh well.

 

[YesWay]

And Japan, being supposedly the most fair judging (compared to others) just opened the floodgates on PCS.

No, they did not. Ridiculous assertion. To prove it, you must first prove overscoring. Which you have not. And then, you must prove that everybody else bases their PCS scoring on Japan nationals - good luck with that...

Nobody would ever justify some of Chan's/Hanyu's past scores like at 2013 Worlds and Cup of China 2014 by comparing it to their max score and saying "well it's X number of points less than their maximum".

Probably not. Because those were 2 years ago, different programs, and the skaters have changed in that time. Rather pointless.

Whereas the comparison made, was with a score that was only two weeks ago, for the same program... where the skaters capabilities have not changed, and nor has the system used to score them.

The scores will change due to the different judges at each competition, and the different performances.
But they should still be roughly comparable.

Performance this time was poorer. So the FS score was lower - a LOT lower.
If the judges were so "egregiously" overscoring as you claim, the score would not have dropped so much.

And again people need to stop comparing max score. Like 183 with 2 falls is ridiculous.

No it is not. What is ridiculous - is that you have gone right back to square one, implying stuff like "183 is impossible with 2 falls", when it clearly is not impossible according to the rules.

So, at square one, the question is - please explain, in terms of the protocols:

- what tech calls were wrong, such that base value of elements were too high

- what GoE bullet points were/weren't met for each element, such that Hanyu was awarded too much GoE vs others at the same competition

- What criteria were/weren't met for each PCS component, for the overall program, vs others at the same competition... that you think could have made more than a few points difference... and could conceivably be called "egregious overscoring"

Until you do that - all you've got is hot air and sour grapes.
"I don't like Hanyu's scores. Therefore overscoring"

 

[whatif]

People stop responding to CSG's baiting. Anyone from Canada complaining about National inflations is the definition of "pot calling the kettle black". After all the word inflation was redefined in Canada just recently.

 

[YesWay]

Just looking at the protocols. Judges gave Hanyu 9.75 for Transitions in his SP despite missing his 4S spread eagle exit. So obviously they took that into account and docked a whole 0.25. :agree:

Wow, you really are regressing. Once again:

You are focussing on one missed spread eagle, as if that was the only transition in the program and he missed it.

When in fact, his Transitions component score, was awarded for the transitions he DID do. Not the transitions he might have done.

Although -2's for a 3A<(fall), and +2s for a series with a UR half loop, pretty much says it all.

No it does not say it all.

Explain how the GoE, in terms of bullet points for jumps, were wrong - such that after penalties for mistakes, the total GoE awarded was wrong.

Then you will have said it all.

He scored numerous 9.50/9.75's and even a 10.00 with two falls. Four jumping passes with errors and 95.58 PCS.

FALLS AND OTHER TECH ERRORS ARE PUNISHED IN TES, NOT PCS

 

[Lys]

Wow, you really are regressing. Once again:

You are focussing on one missed spread eagle, as if that was the only transition in the program and he missed it.

By the way, he didn't really miss all of it, since he got up and went straight into the spread eagle after the fall... but don't tell anyone or someone might have to actually watch the short program...

 

[eta]

Team Japan at Worlds: Hanyu, Uno
Four Continents Team Japan: Mura, Tanaka, Uno

So so so glad that Yuzu is not going to 4CC, he really needs a good break before Worlds. Hopefully he'll not push himself and do too many ice shows. /where is the praying hands emoji?

 

[YesWay]

People stop responding to CSG's baiting.

*sigh* I guess.

Given their last couple of posts, CSG either has a very short (or selective) memory... or some new person is sitting at their computer and starting again from scratch... or CSG is simply a troll.

It was worth replying though, so their unsubstantiated claims didn't go unchallenged, as if they were established facts.