Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[malo42]

Omg, I left this thread in 9 page (and it was a really nice thread) and when I come back it's turned into a ridiculous and repetitive discussion topic: Hope moderators close it, as they did with the other

Its utterly ridiculous to want a thread for a competition to be closed just because certain people can't stop arguing. I don't understand why people can't just block or ignore people who they know are just never going to stop arguing. As for me, Yuzuru is one of my favorites so I just know there are certain people I will never agree with, I don't go as far as blocking them but I tend not to look at their posts, I honestly don't care if they have any good points and I doubt they'd care if I had any good points sometimes you need to just agree to disagree and end it. Be the bigger person~ (AKA tell yourself they're just jealous of your fave because your fave wins lol)

There was more than one skater at this comp, heck there were more than two skaters here. No one really had a perfect FS which is too bad. I'm so happy with Keiji's 4th place. Before nats I was thinking "Just MAYBE he could get 4CCs." And now he has it, yay! Its a shame Koshiro's FS was not taped at all because it seems he was clean (other than the e on the flip), his FS sat on top for a while, I look forward to him building up his tech content. I felt bad for Sota because he had a poor overall competition but in the end his placement was not bad for a junior.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

And Japan, being supposedly the most fair judging (compared to others) just opened the floodgates on PCS. It will be ridiculous come US and Canadian nationals because the judges will be thinking, "Well if JAPAN can judge like that, it's open season for us." And they will want to pump their skaters' PCS to be comparable to their skaters' main competitors and do the same strategy of inflated Nationals scoring so that it will be "brought down" come Worlds.

Oh please, now it's supposedly the fault of "Japan" and their scores that other nations - that have had overscoring, and worse overscoring for years - are "forced" to overscore their skaters even more? There is no smily dumb enough to use for this.

What is this? Preparation for justifying your darlings marks at their own nationals? "Boo boo, X's marks are only so high because they had to, because Japanese nationals! "

Hanyu got 47.77 PCS SP, so then at worlds if he falls again he will be brought down to a 45. But if Hanyu were fairly scored at Japanese Nats with a score of 44-45 PCS, then if he fell at Worlds his score would be brought down to a 42-43.

Yuzuru has scored 45-46 in PCS with falls already internationally. So this ridiculous inflation is around... a whopping 2 points. OMG. We need to get the pitchforks and burn some villages.
And... you think international scores are following national ones - meaning: skaters with higher nationals inflation get an unfair boost compared to those with less national inflation? (Warning: this is a trap )

 

[Ophelia]

It's always the same people who will come and whine and cry at Yuzu's "unfair" scoring. Those people need to avoid hanging in Russian and American Nationals threads if they don't want a heart attack. Oh well.

Did those same people whine and cry when PChan won 2 Worlds with falls thanks to unfair scoring?

 

[HanDomi]

Does it always need come to the same

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Did those same people whine and cry when PChan won 2 Worlds with falls thanks to unfair scoring?

Oh but his PCS was 89.23 (2013) and 90.14 (2012) with those falls, and his max score for PCS going clean is 96.50. Those freeskates got 169.41 and 176.70 when his TEB FS got 196.75.

So clearly Chan comparing those scores to his maximum score and using the logic people are using to justify Hanyu's scores here he wasn't overscored in either of those Worlds wins given his maximum PCS/FS scores. :sarcasm:

YesWay seems to think that a skater can fall tons of times in a program and if "they're not disruptive" (ie if a popular skater committed those falls :sarcasm then near perfect PCS is acceptable because those are only moments of disruption (or non-disruption if you "get right back up", because you know, the falls never happened - and a 95.58 components score is essentially treating it like he made no errors that marred the performance).

 

[alia jackson]

And Japan, being supposedly the most fair judging (compared to others) just opened the floodgates on PCS. It will be ridiculous come US and Canadian nationals because the judges will be thinking, "Well if JAPAN can judge like that, it's open season for us." And they will want to pump their skaters' PCS to be comparable to their skaters' main competitors and do the same strategy of inflated Nationals scoring so that it will be "brought down" come Worlds.

No, they did not. Ridiculous assertion. To prove it, you must first prove overscoring. Which you have not. And then, you must prove that everybody else bases their PCS scoring on Japan nationals - good luck with that...

Oh please, now it's supposedly the fault of "Japan" and their scores that other nations - that have had overscoring, and worse overscoring for years - are "forced" to overscore their skaters even more? There is no smily dumb enough to use for this.

What is this? Preparation for justifying your darlings marks at their own nationals? "Boo boo, X's marks are only so high because they had to, because Japanese nationals! "

Below data shows CSG ridiculous assertion in accusing Japan and like Li'Kitsu said in fact other nations has worse over scoring for years.

I didn't see CSG microanalyse Javi PCS (SP=48, FP=98.50) at Spain national last week or skaters at US national in Jan'15 like what he is doing now with Yuzu. Neither did he accuse Spain/US of opening floodgate to PCS like how he is accusing Japan. Very selective indeed.

Now if only I have the Canada national protocol over the years to add to this table, and we may see the floodgate to PCS was opened by Canada in 2011


Statistic of Men PCS 10s count at Nationals

[TABLE="class: grid"]

[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]2015-2016 NATIONALS
Cannot find protocol for Russia/China. Canada/US in Jan'16, Kazakh ? [/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Skaters[/TD]
[TD]No of 10s in PCS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Total 10s[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Javier Fernandez[/TD]
[TD]SP Spain Nat x4, FP Spain Nat x12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Yuzuru Hanyu[/TD]
[TD]SP Japan Nat x3, FP Japan Nat x1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]2014-2015 NATIONALS
Cannot find protocol for Canada/Kazakh[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Skaters[/TD]
[TD]No of 10s in PCS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Total 10s[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Adam Rippon[/TD]
[TD]FP US Nat x6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Jason Brown[/TD]
[TD]SP US Nat x3, FP US Nat x2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Jeremy Abbot[/TD]
[TD]SP US Nat x4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Joshua Farris[/TD]
[TD]FP US Nat x4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Maxim Kovtun[/TD]
[TD]FP Russia Nat x2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Javier Fernandez[/TD]
[TD]SP Spain Nat x1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]No Japanese[/TD]
[TD]No 10s at Japan Nat [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]


[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]2013-2014 NATIONALS
Cannot find protocol for Canada/Russia/Kazakh[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Skaters[/TD]
[TD]No of 10s in PCS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Total 10s[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Javier Fernandez[/TD]
[TD]SP Spain Nat x5, FP Spain Nat x6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Jason Brown[/TD]
[TD]FP US Nat x5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Joshua Farris[/TD]
[TD]FP US Nat x4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Jeremy Abbot[/TD]
[TD]SP US Nat x2, FP US Nat x1 [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]No Japanese[/TD]
[TD]No 10s at Japan Nat [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]


[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]2012-2013 NATIONALS
Cannot find protocol for Canada/Russia/China/Kazakh[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Skaters[/TD]
[TD]No of 10s in PCS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Total 10s[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Daisuke Takahashi[/TD]
[TD]FP Japan Nat x2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]


[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]2011-2012 NATIONALS
Cannot find protocol for Canada/Russia/China/Kazakh/Spain[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Skaters[/TD]
[TD]No of 10s in PCS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Total 10s[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Jeremy Abbot[/TD]
[TD]SP US Nat x3, FP US Nat x2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]No Japanese[/TD]
[TD]No 10s at Japan Nat [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: center"]2010-2011 NATIONALS
Cannot find protocol for Canada/Russia/China/Kazakh/Spain[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]Skaters[/TD]
[TD]No of 10s in PCS[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Total 10s[/TD]
[/TR]

[TR]
[TD]No Japanese[/TD]
[TD]No 10s at Japan Nat [/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

[Lys]

Oh but his PCS was 89.23 (2013) and 90.14 (2012) with those falls, and his max score for PCS going clean is 96.50. Those freeskates got 169.41 and 176.70 when his TEB FS got 196.75.

So clearly Chan comparing those scores to his maximum score and using the logic people are using to justify Hanyu's scores here he wasn't overscored in either of those Worlds wins given his maximum PCS/FS scores. :sarcasm:

YesWay seems to think that a skater can fall tons of times in a program and if "they're not disruptive" (ie if a popular skater committed those falls :sarcasm then near perfect PCS is acceptable because those are only moments of disruption (or non-disruption if you "get right back up", because you know, the falls never happened - and a 95.58 components score is essentially treating it like he made no errors that marred the performance).

You are comparing different seasons and different programs, and that makes no sense, but whatever...

Just for the sake of numbers, tho:

In 2011/12 Patrick's sb was 185,99 (4CC, no fall) and pcs were 90,16. One fall in Nice at WC costed him less than 10 points, basically nothing in pcs.

In 2012/13 Patrick's sb was 176,91 (CoR, no fall) and pcs were 92,70. Two falls in London at WC costed him around 10 points, 3 points in pcs.

Now, Yuzuru's sb in 2015/16 is 219,48 (GPF, no fall) and pcs is 98,56. Two falls in Japan National costed him around 36 points, 3 points in pcs.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Whereas the comparison made, was with a score that was only two weeks ago, for the same program... where the skaters capabilities have not changed, and nor has the system used to score them.

The scores will change due to the different judges at each competition, and the different performances.
But they should still be roughly comparable.

Performance this time was poorer. So the FS score was lower - a LOT lower.
If the judges were so "egregiously" overscoring as you claim, the score would not have dropped so much.

This same "logic" can be applied to this season. How different was the choreography/transitions/program that much different in his program at Skate Canada compared to the GPF to merit going from 88.94 to 98.56 at the GPF. How is that "roughly comparable" when the program choreography wasn't improved or changed to merit such a jump? Obviously the jump was due to cleaner execution and harder jump difficulty - which as you've said shouldn't affect PCS boosts/decreases, right? :sarcasm:

Same goes with his SP at NHK getting 46.89 PCS and the exact same program - with a fall - getting 47.77 PCS at Japan Nats.

And yes the overall FS score dropped at Japan Nats because the technical score was lower but the components didn't reflect the multiple errors (including 2 falls) that were made. That wasn't the judges evaluating the performance as "a LOT lower", that was the technical score actually dropping and not a result of the judges accurately scoring his performance. They gave him 3 points less PCS - how harsh of them.

Do you honestly believe that comparing his clean GPF performance to his Japan Nats FS, the GPF performance was worthy of only 3 points difference in PCS? (And less than 2 points if you compare his Japan Nats FS to his NHK FS).

 

[padme21]

Can we please get back to talking about The men's free skate at Japanese Nationals! This thread has turned into a that skater shouldn't have scored that score. Why are you so concerned over the scores at Japanese national they don't even carry at international competitions! Please stop bashing this and that skater. The title of this thread is Japanese Nationals men's FS NOT Hanyu shouldn't have gotten those scores.

 

[YesWay]

YesWay seems to think that a skater can fall tons of times in a program and if "they're not disruptive" (ie if a popular skater committed those falls :sarcasm then near perfect PCS is acceptable because those are only moments of disruption (or non-disruption if you "get right back up", because you know, the falls never happened - and a 95.58 components score is essentially treating it like he made no errors that marred the performance).

Yet again:

Falls are punished in TES, not PCS

Did you see it that time?

And I see you're back to making up straw-man fallacies again? Why? Because you can't make a real case for overscoring, in terms of protocols, PCS criteria, GoE criteria etc?

And yes the overall FS score dropped at Japan Nats because the technical score was lower but the components didn't reflect the multiple errors (including 2 falls) that were made. That wasn't the judges evaluating the performance as "a LOT lower", that was the technical score actually dropping and not a result of the judges accurately scoring his performance. They gave him 3 points less PCS - how harsh of them.

What you have just described in bold, is the judges applying the rules, exactly as written, and the way they're supposed to be.

Instead of applying the rules from your fantasy universe, where TES and PCS are the same thing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Now, Yuzuru's sb in 2015/16 is 219,48 (GPF, no fall) and pcs is 98,56. Two falls in Japan National costed him around 36 points, 3 points in pcs.

It was more than just 2 falls - it was under-rotations, the lack of a 2nd and 3rd combo, the 4T not being in combination, a UR on his 3A series, and a flawed loop. That contributed to 33/36 points less and just 3/36 point less from PCS. Chan lost 9/10 points at WC2012 compared to 4CC in 2012 and just 1/10 less due to PCS dropping - both ratios of points lost on TES to points lost on PCS are essentially the same, cbut of course Chan's is worth crying foul over (and it is) but Hanyu's is fine to some people. Both are examples of awful judging.

Regardless of the skater, 2 falls (plus other errors) should immediately prevent you from getting perfect PCS (which is what 96 PCS essentially is). Hanyu made less errors at Skate Canada and scored 7 points less PCS for essentially the same level of program and performance. Because technical errors like falls do affect PCS and should. And as we saw, Technical errors aside, the actual performance outside of the jumps was not nearly the level of NHK or GPF.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So, YesWay, if a skater performs cleanly and gets 95 PCS and the same skater does the exact same program a few weeks later with falls on every one of their 8 jumping passes - but everything outside of the jumps exactly the same - you believe the PCS should still remain at 95 (or even above 90).

I just want to clarify that this is your interpretation and approach towards the rules.

 

[AprilS]

Why is CSG still microanalyzing nationals scoring? Does anyone but CSG actually care that Hanyu got 95~ instead of 90~? I mean, he was the last skater in the whole comp and obviously won at that point. It wouldn't have changed a darn thing if they threw him 99 PCS. Whether it sends out a message that it doesn't matter if Hanyu falls twice (3x for the whole comp) and can still win... at present, other than Uno, it's kind of true. And Uno screwed up his chance. They gave him, 1 PCS point less than his perfect GPF performance for goodness sake, I'm pretty sure Uno could have won if he went clean - but he didn't. For anyone else - it didn't matter if they went clean or not, Hanyu always had a 1 fall in the SP, 2 fall in the FS cushion over any JP skater other than Uno (and maybe even Uno??) internationally or nationally. But that's a scoring system in general issue, not a nationals judging issue.

Also, JP nats has always had some sort of inflation (2013 nats anyone?). CSG brought his own one-sided and untrue expectations to 2015 JP nats and is now one-sided-ly disappointed due to his own one-sided expectations on now JP nats (and JP nats alone, mind you, not any other nats) should be scored. How JP nats scores their skaters is not going to affect how CN and US nats scores theirs. CN and US nats will score as they darn well please JP nats or no JP nats.

In CSG's mind:

Pre-2015 JP nats/Post-2014 JP nats:
- US judges: Oh, Rus nats has a bunch of inflation, but JP nats has less in comparison. Better shoot somewhere in the middle and give Ashley Wagner ~149 in the FS :yes: 135 for Karen too!

Post-2015 JP nats:
- US judges: Oh, Rus nats has a bunch of inflation, and JP nats has a bit more inflation than previous years (not even bringing up Akiko's ~145 at 2013 nats, Men's 2012 nats, etc, etc) LETS GIVE ASHLEY 160 AT 2016 NATS!! WOOOOOHOOO FREE FOR ALLLL!!! :hap93: You get a 10, you get a 10, 10's FOR EVERYONE!
- CN judges: 100 PCS to PChan YAAAAASSSS!!!! BRING IT ON JP NATS!!! YOU THINK YOU CAN OUT-INFLATE USSSS???!!!??? :taunt:

yeah... I highly doubt that's how it works

 

[alia jackson]

Do you honestly believe that comparing his clean GPF performance to his Japan Nats FS, the GPF performance was worthy of only 3 points difference in PCS? (And less than 2 points if you compare his Japan Nats FS to his NHK FS).

Just for the sake of numbers, tho:

In 2011/12 Patrick's sb was 185,99 (4CC, no fall) and pcs were 90,16. One fall in Nice at WC costed him less than 10 points, basically nothing in pcs.

Costed Daisuke Takahashi the World 2012 Gold medal

In 2012/13 Patrick's sb was 176,91 (CoR, no fall) and pcs were 92,70. Two falls in London at WC costed him around 10 points, 3 points in pcs.

Costed Denis Ten the World 2013 Gold medal

Yuzuru's sb in 2015/16 is 219,48 (GPF, no fall) and pcs is 98,56. Two falls in Japan National costed him around 36 points, 3 points in pcs.

Even subtract 10 from his pcs, the gold is still Yuzu's at national and not international event

 

[YesWay]

So, YesWay, if a skater performs cleanly and gets 95 PCS and the same skater does the exact same program a few weeks later with falls on every one of their 8 jumping passes - but everything outside of the jumps exactly the same - you believe the PCS should still remain at 95 (or even above 90).

I just want to clarify that this is your interpretation and approach towards the rules.

Buliding another straw man fallacy? Based on an irrelevant and extreme case, where skater falls 8 times, which is nothing like the case in question? Trying to make it a question of "what I believe" and "my interpretation", instead of about what is actually written in the rules?

Whatever. I've already said: in such a disruptive case like that, the program would have clearly unravelled - flow, choreography, transitions, speed etc etc would have to be affected and PCS would drop like a stone, since it would be near-impossible for the skater to meet enough of the PCS criteria in the gaps between so many falls.

ie. it is not so much the falls that would drop the PCS, it would be the inability to put in enough quality skating in between them, making the program incoherent overall.

And to save time - the answer to your next reply is:

a) PCS rewards what the skater does, outside of any falls... not what they might have done if they hadn't fallen, and

b) Falls are punished in TES, not PCS.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Costed Daisuke Takahashi the World 2012 Gold medal


Costed Denis Ten the World 2013 Gold medal


Even subtract 10 from his pcs, the gold is still Yuzu's at national and not international event

Ah I see. So overscoring and bad judging is only worth scrutinizing/criticizing when it affects results/placements. Got it.

And Alia I wasn't singling out Japanese nationals... I was saying how - compare to other countries -they keep their skaters' PCS at bay even at Nationals - but this particular instance was a horrible case of judging. I was actually complimenting Japanese nationals for not inflating as much and generally having fairer scoring than others but this is ridiculous. At least when Evgenia got her ridiculous high score of 77/80 (96%) PCS it was for a clean skate. Even 98.56 was excessively high for Hanyu at GPF, but it was a clean skate with excellent technical ability which enhances the overall impression of the performance. There's absolutely no justifying 2 falls and other errors getting one of the highest PCS scores ever given out.

 

[YesWay]

There's absolutely no justifying 2 falls and other errors getting one of the highest PCS scores ever given out.

LOL

You've made no case to justify your claims, and you aren't listening to anyone but yourself.

Giving up now. Finally.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Buliding another straw man fallacy? Based on an irrelevant and extreme case, where skater falls 8 times, which is nothing like the case in question? Trying to make it a question of "what I believe" and "my interpretation", instead of about what is actually written in the rules?

Whatever. I've already said: in such a disruptive case like that, the program would have clearly unravelled - flow, choreography, transitions, speed etc etc would have to be affected and PCS would drop like a stone, since it would be near-impossible for the skater to meet enough of the PCS criteria in the gaps between so many falls.

ie. it is not so much the falls that would drop the PCS, it would be the inability to put in enough quality skating in between them, making the program incoherent overall.

And to save time - the answer to your next post is:

a) PCS rewards what the skater does, outside of any falls... not what they might have done if they hadn't fallen, and

b) Falls are punished in TES, not PCS.

Answer the question I asked. If a skater hypothetically performed the same program exactly the same but had a fall on every jumping pass (but did choreography and level of performance exactly the same), based on your assertion that TES is distinct from PCS, is it fair to give them the exact same PCS score both times?

Seems like you love the continued use of the word "straw man"... Hmm.... seems familiar. :sarcasm:

 

[YesWay]

Answer the question I asked.

I just did. And you just quoted it.

 

[AprilS]

Ah I see. So overscoring and bad judging is only worth scrutinizing/criticizing when it affects results/placements. Got it.

And Alia I wasn't singling out Japanese nationals... I was saying how - compare to other countries -they keep their skaters' PCS at bay even at Nationals - but this particular instance was a horrible case of judging. I was actually complimenting Japanese nationals for not inflating as much and generally having fairer scoring than others but this is ridiculous. At least when Evgenia got 77/80 (96%) PCS it was for a clean skate.

What's with your obsession that clean skate = be all and end all for PCS? That's just fueling the clean-bonus PCS that we see so often in competitions and which I personally think is ridiculous.
For their clean skates, I'd personally give Evgenia 66-68 PCS (and I love her... but I love her potential). 69 if I want to be generous. So 77 is 11 to 9 points "inflated" IMO.
I'd personally also give Kovtun 85-86 (87 if I want to be generous) PCS for his clean skate... So 93 is 8-6 points "inflated" IMO.
I'd also personally give Hanyu 89-91 for the skate in question (92 if I want to be generous)... So 96 is 7-5 points "inflated" IMO for that particular performance.

So again, what do you mean by "at least XXX PCS was for a clean skate"?