Japanese Nationals 2015-16 Mens fs

[malo42]

On the topic of other guys at this comp, what did people think of Shoma's emergency quad attempt? When I heard that I was like, :eeking: If he misses his quad at worlds, will he go for it as his last jump again??

I was confused about this. Was it really a last minute attempt or was it in his planned content? I thought I read it was in his planned content but I might be wrong about that! I still haven't watched Yuruzu or Shoma, I don't want to see them do bad so I'll just rewatch the GPF :agree2:

 

[AprilS]

I was confused about this. Was it really a last minute attempt or was it in his planned content? I thought I read it was in his planned content but I might be wrong about that! I still haven't watched Yuruzu or Shoma, I don't want to see them do bad so I'll just rewatch the GPF :agree2:

No way was a 2T or even a 3T his planned content.

 

[alia jackson]

Will there be a gala?

 

[Pamigena]

And I'll flat out admit it was kinda funny not seeing Yuzuru lead the "What is that costume?!"-discussions

LMAO, so he breaks his own records over and over again, and then he completely skips the title of Most Outrageous Costume? Unacceptable! You'll have to work on that, young man. I expect you to do better next season.
:shame:

 

[malo42]

No way was a 2T or even a 3T his planned content.

Yes right! For some reason I thought someone said he had added a quad in his last jumping pass like he had planned it. But now I looked again at his planned content and I see how it was supposed to be. Silly Shoma. Oh well in the end it didn't really hurt him anyway.

Will there be a gala?

Yes tonight.

 

[Jombi]

On the topic of other guys at this comp, what did people think of Shoma's emergency quad attempt? When I heard that I was like, :eeking: If he misses his quad at worlds, will he go for it as his last jump again??

This is what I thought! Heart attack!

 

[da96103]

I was confused about this. Was it really a last minute attempt or was it in his planned content? I thought I read it was in his planned content but I might be wrong about that! I still haven't watched Yuruzu or Shoma, I don't want to see them do bad so I'll just rewatch the GPF :agree2:

His interview says that it was plan B and he had tried it in practice. ie if I pop the first quad combo, I would do the quad combo in the last jump. However, he stated that he was never successful in jumping the quad as the last jump even in mock practice.

I wonder why he did not tack the double toe to the second quad toe which had a secure landing (supposedly the quad combo was planned for the second half for this competition), and do the axel-loop-flip as planned for the final jump.

 

[da96103]

Shoma planned this:

4T
3A
3A + 3T
3Lo
3S
4T + 2T
3Lz
2A + 1Lo + 3F

However he started with this

2T
-----

Then he missed the quad combo in the second half

So it became like this
2T
3A
3A + 3T
3Lo
3S
4T
------

whereas it should have looked like this
2T
3A
3A + 3T
3Lo
3S
4T + 2T
----

At this point he can choose
either A:
2T
3A
3A + 3T
3Lo
3S
4T
3Lz
2A + 1Lo + 3F

or B:
2T
3A
3A + 3T
3Lo
3S
4T
3Lz
4T + 2T

So he chose B: and thus it turned into this

2T
3A
3A + 3T
3Lo
3S
4T
3Lz
2T

 

[da96103]

In a lame attempt to talk about anything else... anyone else besides me missing Mura's old costume? Hey, I'm taking "so bad it's funny" over just "bad" any day... just me? Okay

Are you talking about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47ibjYf6R6M

It looks like the time my grandma wanted to make some black chicken soup from her own chicken reared in the backyard. My grandma thought the chicken was already dead and started to pluck its feathers, but the black chicken have some other ideas and became alive and ran off into the backyard with half its feathers plucked.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The issue with the quotes Li'Kitsu pulled out isn't that you weren't criticizing scoring (well, it kind of was, I guess), but that your two posts quoted there contradict themselves - one in "favor" of one nationals, and the other in "disfavor" of another nationals. Do you criticize ALL sketchy scoring? Maybe you do. Maybe you think you do. Maybe some others think you do and some others don't. I am of the mind that you do not. It was not pulled out as questioning your ability to criticize scores, but as an example of bias.


But would YOU be "flaying" him for it? And maybe you would be. Again, it is a quesiton of your impartiality.

Yes I would definitely be flaying him (or rather, the judges) for it. I've already criticized his scoring this season saying his PCS at Skate Canada and for his SPs with major errors was too high. Perhaps I wasn't as explicit as I needed to be when I said "if it was Chan who scored 96 PCS with that many errors people would be flaying him for it (as they should in that scenario)"

I don't know how explicit I need to be to denounce bad judging without making it seem like I'm singling out Hanyu. This is not the first (and unfortunately not the last) time I'm pointing out awful judging, regardless of nationality. I'm astounded (though part of me not surprised) that people are defending such high PCS in wake of major errors.

I would bet these same people denounce Patrick's PCS at 2012 and 2013 Worlds (as they should) but give Hanyu a pass just because the GPF judges decided to go buck wild with his PCS for a clean skate at the GPF. To me, Hanyu performed exactly the same (with actually lesser jump quality) compared to NHK at the GPF but due to the unfortunate trend of "clean performances of the same program = higher PCS each time, even if the choreo/transitions stay the same" the PCS was higher.

Where is the rhetoric with Hanyu's judges that we heard with Chan's judges two years ago... "With 5 falls he'll still win"? It's accepted now thanks to comparing his scores with heavily flawed programs to scores of perfect programs.

And I will reiterate, it was never acceptable with Chan and it is not acceptable with Hanyu. And frankly it's really disappointing that posters (unless they're trolling) legitimately think 2 falls and other errors still merits essentially perfect PCS scores. I know you love Hanyu (I do too) but there is simply no justifying that. And stop using bs like "falls shouldn't affect evaluation of the program". You didn't think it justified Chan's controversial wins (falls not affecting PCS) so now it's time you fairly evaluated non-Chan programs the same way.

Bottom line: it's absolutely hypocritical to complain that Chan wins with multiple falls and gets 90+ PCS and then say it's fine when Hanyu does multiple falls+other errors and gets 95+ PCS. It's bad judging no matter how you look at it. I don't care if Hanyu is more humble and Chan is brash and less likeable; you need to assess skaters for what they do and penalize for the errors they make and how it is detrimental to the program.

 

[Marin]

Yes I would definitely be flaying him (or rather, the judges) for it. I've already criticized his scoring this season saying his PCS at Skate Canada and for his SPs with major errors was too high. Perhaps I wasn't as explicit as I needed to be when I said "if it was Chan who scored 96 PCS with that many errors people would be flaying him for it (as they should in that scenario)"

I don't know how explicit I need to be to denounce bad judging without making it seem like I'm singling out Hanyu. This is not the first (and unfortunately not the last) time I'm pointing out awful judging, regardless of nationality. I'm astounded (though part of me not surprised) that people are defending such high PCS in wake of major errors.

I would bet these same people denounce Patrick's PCS at 2012 and 2013 Worlds (as they should) but give Hanyu a pass just because the GPF judges decided to go buck wild with his PCS for a clean skate at the GPF. To me, Hanyu performed exactly the same (with actually lesser jump quality) compared to NHK at the GPF but due to the unfortunate trend of "clean performances of the same program = higher PCS each time, even if the choreo/transitions stay the same" the PCS was higher.

Where is the rhetoric with Hanyu's judges that we heard with Chan's judges two years ago... "With 5 falls he'll still win"? It's accepted now thanks to comparing his scores with heavily flawed programs to scores of perfect programs.

And I will reiterate, it was never acceptable with Chan and it is not acceptable with Hanyu. And frankly it's really disappointing that posters (unless they're trolling) legitimately think 2 falls and other errors still merits essentially perfect PCS scores. I know you love Hanyu (I do too) but there is simply no justifying that. And stop using bs like "falls shouldn't affect evaluation of the program". You didn't think it justified Chan's controversial wins (falls not affecting PCS) so now it's time you fairly evaluated non-Chan programs the same way.

Bottom line: it's absolutely hypocritical to complain that Chan wins with multiple falls and gets 90+ PCS and then say it's fine when Hanyu does multiple falls+other errors and gets 95+ PCS. It's bad judging no matter how you look at it. I don't care if Hanyu is more humble and Chan is brash and less likeable; you need to assess skaters for what they do and penalize for the errors they make and how it is detrimental to the program.

Come on Patrick, don't worry everything will be fine , better train second quad than spending so much time on forum

 

[Interspectator]

I'm actually very interested in this discussion of over-scoring or nationals inflation as it applies not only to Yuzu but all 'home favorites'.

I think that Yuzu was given a very generous score for his free skate both in PCS and GOES with his jumps in the second half.

I would have scored him about 175 for his skate. -But my estimates always fall lower than what the judges actually give. (I play this game with my family, guess the score, when we watch skating on TV)

But, since the placements were correct, and no one was robbed of their rightful medals...I'm not too put-out.

It's a domestic competition, does not count towards any sort of ISU records or anything.

On the other hand, Mao was also less than stellar in her performance and was also given what I consider to be a generous score, and THIS score would actually have mattered in the medals...Rika could have gotten a bronze. --Not much discussion about possible inflation or over-scoring in that department? Why not discuss it when a difference in the scores would have actually changed the placements?

I don't mind people having a problem with Yuzu's scores, since he is at the top of the Men in ranking and historical best scores, it is natural for him to be under more scrutiny, but just this time, his over scoring at home, at nationals does not stand out as more egregious than the other National scores, IE, Russians, Javi, Mao etc.

I would like scores to be 'deflated' for everyone, but it's probably not going to happen.

 

[AprilS]

Yes I would definitely be flaying him (or rather, the judges) for it. I've already criticized his scoring this season saying his PCS at Skate Canada and for his SPs with major errors was too high. Perhaps I wasn't as explicit as I needed to be when I said "if it was Chan who scored 96 PCS with that many errors people would be flaying him for it (as they should in that scenario)"

I don't know how explicit I need to be to denounce bad judging without making it seem like I'm singling out Hanyu. This is not the first (and unfortunately not the last) time I'm pointing out awful judging, regardless of nationality. I'm astounded (though part of me not surprised) that people are defending such high PCS in wake of major errors.

I would bet these same people denounce Patrick's PCS at 2012 and 2013 Worlds (as they should) but give Hanyu a pass just because the GPF judges decided to go buck wild with his PCS for a clean skate at the GPF. To me, Hanyu performed exactly the same (with actually lesser jump quality) compared to NHK at the GPF but due to the unfortunate trend of "clean performances of the same program = higher PCS each time, even if the choreo/transitions stay the same" the PCS was higher.

Where is the rhetoric with Hanyu's judges that we heard with Chan's judges two years ago... "With 5 falls he'll still win"? It's accepted now thanks to comparing his scores with heavily flawed programs to scores of perfect programs.

And I will reiterate, it was never acceptable with Chan and it is not acceptable with Hanyu. And frankly it's really disappointing that posters (unless they're trolling) legitimately think 2 falls and other errors still merits essentially perfect PCS scores. I know you love Hanyu (I do too) but there is simply no justifying that. And stop using bs like "falls shouldn't affect evaluation of the program". You didn't think it justified Chan's controversial wins (falls not affecting PCS) so now it's time you fairly evaluated non-Chan programs the same way.

Bottom line: it's absolutely hypocritical to complain that Chan wins with multiple falls and gets 90+ PCS and then say it's fine when Hanyu does multiple falls+other errors and gets 95+ PCS. It's bad judging no matter how you look at it. I don't care if Hanyu is more humble and Chan is brash and less likeable; you need to assess skaters for what they do and penalize for the errors they make and how it is detrimental to the program.

You only quoted me, so I'm going to assume that the "you" that you refer to in this post was directed towards me... but I never mentioned Chan? Like, at all? I never even complained about Chan's PCS. Though I haven't checked my post history so I'm not 100% sure, I don't think I've criticized Chan's PCS, like, ever. Why even bring Chan into this? He wasn't even at this competition. Other than my faux US CN nats judging scenario from a few posts back, that is, but the context is completely different? Are you replying to YesWay at the same time you're replying to my quote? Because it would be nice if you made that clear. Otherwise, it feels like you're making up things I didn't say and it feels kind of offensive. Thanks.

My bottom line is that while you (and I do mean you, CSG, just in case your "you" didn't actually mean me) do mention other instances of overscoring and do post your opinions accordingly, from what I've seen, you do not do post for pages and pages like you are doing here for arguably more controversial scoring instances for other skaters. Bias is natural for people and everyone has some degree of bias. But when it looks so apparent as it does from the trend in your posting, it (and by it, I mean for me, and because there's so many people on this forum, probably for at least a few others as well) becomes hard to take what you say seriously, even if the points you make may or may not be on point and perfectly valid. My post wasn't even about the scoring at all.

Is what I'm trying to say.

 

[AprilS]

I can guarantee you if it was Chan who scored 96 PCS with that many errors people would be flaying him for it (as they should in that scenario), and nobody would be trying to defend it by saying "oh well it's not that bad compared to his maximum scoring potential".

I just read this post again. When I read it for the first time, I read it to mean if Chan scored like that in international competition then people would be "flaying him for it".
At a national competition, if the placements were correct, I honestly don't think they would? Some anti-Chan posters (and we both know they exist) probably would. But I cant really think of anyone who would microanalyze his scores like you are doing in such an instance for the sake of "Canadian nats should be held to a higher standard than all other nats."

 

[AprilS]

I'm actually very interested in this discussion of over-scoring or nationals inflation as it applies not only to Yuzu but all 'home favorites'.

I think that Yuzu was given a very generous score for his free skate both in PCS and GOES with his jumps in the second half.

I would have scored him about 175 for his skate. -But my estimates always fall lower than what the judges actually give. (I play this game with my family, guess the score, when we watch skating on TV)

But, since the placements were correct, and no one was robbed of their rightful medals...I'm not too put-out.

It's a domestic competition, does not count towards any sort of ISU records or anything.

On the other hand, Mao was also less than stellar in her performance and was also given what I consider to be a generous score, and THIS score would actually have mattered in the medals...Rika could have gotten a bronze. --Not much discussion about possible inflation or over-scoring in that department? Why not discuss it when a difference in the scores would have actually changed the placements?

I don't mind people having a problem with Yuzu's scores, since he is at the top of the Men in ranking and historical best scores, it is natural for him to be under more scrutiny, but just this time, his over scoring at home, at nationals does not stand out as more egregious than the other National scores, IE, Russians, Javi, Mao etc.

I would like scores to be 'deflated' for everyone, but it's probably not going to happen.

This so much. :agree:

 

[Lysambre]

And Japan, being supposedly the most fair judging (compared to others) just opened the floodgates on PCS. It will be ridiculous come US and Canadian nationals because the judges will be thinking, "Well if JAPAN can judge like that, it's open season for us." And they will want to pump their skaters' PCS to be comparable to their skaters' main competitors and do the same strategy of inflated Nationals scoring so that it will be "brought down" come Worlds.

Japan has been the fairest so far when it comes to PCS, for a long time. For once, they weren't 100% fair, and suddenly you accuse them of being the cause of the Nationals inflation in all the other countries. That's basically saying that someone shouldn't have been crossing the road and it's their fault they got hit by a car driven by a blind and drunk driver.... And it's never a fair argument.

What happens at nationals isn't official ISU scoring, everybody knows that, and most countries have been doing whatever they wanted, for years, dare I even say *decades*. What happens at any nationals, also has no impact whatsoever on what happens in other Nationals, otherwise Japan would have started giving crazy PCS a very long time ago, following the leads of Russia and the US.

The question is : why do you think Japan should be a bastion of virtue when it comes to Nationals PCS? Why should they hold onto pseudo perfectionism? Why should they have to be restrained in comparison to everyone else? Why should every other country BUT Japan be allowed to do whatever they want when it comes to nationals? Why should they owe it to you to be the fairest of them all ?

They don't OWE anything to anybody when it comes to what they want to be doing at Nationals scoring. Just like Russia doesn't, just like Spain doesn't, just like France doesn't, just like the US doesn't. Nationals are nationals, and every country did, does and will be doing whatever they want.

And you thinking they were on an imaginary pedestal when it comes to fairness, doesn't make them owe you anything either. Japan can favor whichever athlete they want in their own National competitions. Once again, the same way that other countries have been doing for many years.

So they have an athlete who just, not once but twice, broke every world record in Men FS, and despite two not perfect skates, they decided to give him an advantage over the rest of the competition... So what? I mean, seriously...

 

[m0001]

Come on Patrick, don't worry everything will be fine , better train second quad than spending so much time on forum

Are you talking directly to Patrick? How did you find out he spends much time on forum? Which forum?

 

[Rissa]

Are you talking directly to Patrick? How did you find out he spends much time on forum? Which forum?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sense+of+humour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour

 

[m0001]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sense+of+humour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humour

Are you 100% sure this is just a sense of humour?

 

[Rissa]

Are you 100% sure this is just a sense of humour?

Yes, I'm 100% sure the previous poster didn't think CanadianSkaterGuy was Patrick, wasn't trying to talk Patrick directly or thought Patrick was spending time on forum instead of training. That was just sense of humour.