I don't think this is quite fair, as it would seem that both Anna and Elena have gone through puberty, and Liza competed just fine last year. I also don't think Adelina's issues are related to puberty, but rather to her current level of fitness and preparation. However, it does seem as though both Julia and Serifima have been hit hard by puberty.
2015-16 State of Russian Ladies skating
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I don't think this is quite fair, as it would seem that both Anna and Elena have gone through puberty, and Liza competed just fine last year. I also don't think Adelina's issues are related to puberty, but rather to her current level of fitness and preparation. However, it does seem as though both Julia and Serifima have been hit hard by puberty.
Anna's record is spotty at best---when she is good she is very good, but when she isn't good she is awful. Elena is struggling and she hasn't gone all the way through puberty yet. Adelina won everything as a junior, but in 3 years of senior competition, she didn't win anything until the OGM in her home country. Since then she didn't win any of four competitions she entered this season, even though three were in her home country (Mordovian Ornament-2, Golden Spin-6, CoR-3, Nationals-6).
All three have been skating poorly, so don't blame it on the level of depth.
Anna's record may be spotty, but that seems to just be her norm, not something puberty related. With regards to Adelina winning everything as a jr really isn't that relevant, as before the Olympics (with the exception of Lipnitskaia) she was competing against skaters she hadn't competed against as a jr (it would be like dragging Hawayek and Baker now). As to her record after her break, as I stated before, I think the reasons behind it whirl physical are not related to puberty.
I just think overly simplistic to boil it down to pre-pubesant= good results, post pubesant= poor(er) results.
I just think overly simplistic to boil it down to pre-pubesant= good results, post pubesant= poor(er) results.
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- Feb 17, 2010
Well, 5 women medaled on the GP, including the three I mentioned (Anna, who made the Euros team, didn't). For comparison, US had 3 and Japan had 4 GP medalists.
If anyone struggles because of her current level of fitness and preparation it is rather Yulia, not Adelina. Adelina performed this season just on the level as she performed seasons before the Olympics. On OG she made a huge surprise by suddenly skating both programs cleanly. Remember, Adelina has never won any ISU international competition on the senior level except Golden Spin. Although she was impressively 4 times Russian champion, now this competition is very different than it was years ago.
I don't think there is any particular pattern in success/fail within Russian ladies whether related to the puberty or not. It is very individual. Even the most successful skaters do not always have good seasons; however, what distinquish current Russian ladies is the fact that even a short-term failure causes them to be not selected to the team, i.e. not being able to participate at the major competitions. So since there are only 3 spots, and at least 7 strong pretendents like it was this year, than in any circumstances 4 top skaters won't make it. The situation like this was never a case with other countries. If you put Ashley, Gracie and Polina in these circumstances they unlikely would make a Worlds team two years in the row. I am just saying it so people stop trying to find the pattern that would explain ups and downs of Russian ladies from one season to another. There it is all about who will be the best out of the best.
At Golden Spin this year, Sotnikova was beaten by Tuktamysheva, Elizabet Tursynbaeva, Karen Chen, Alena Leonova and Angela Wang. Of those ladies, only Tukyamysheva and Leonova have gone to Worlds and are World medalists. Tursynbaeva and Chen are first-year Seniors who didn't medal yet in the GP but did make the podium in this event. Wang has won B medals and has competed in the GP for two seasons, but has never won a GP medal.
Sotnikova of course scored much higher in the events in her own country where she received very inflated PCS scores (PCS in the 9s for programs with falls, flutzes, URs and popped jumps). Realistically, she would not get those scores from ISU judges on an international panel, and she did not get them at Golden Spin. Her PCS scores here were in the 7s and were the third highest of the ladies, after Tuktamysheva and Leonova. She finished 6th in this competition because of her low TES.
Sotnikova of course scored much higher in the events in her own country where she received very inflated PCS scores (PCS in the 9s for programs with falls, flutzes, URs and popped jumps). Realistically, she would not get those scores from ISU judges on an international panel, and she did not get them at Golden Spin. Her PCS scores here were in the 7s and were the third highest of the ladies, after Tuktamysheva and Leonova. She finished 6th in this competition because of her low TES.
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- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I can't believe this possibility (Russia at 4CC) even discussed here. It is sport it has its rules it will not be same if rules changed every time some feel it fit. It is the problem of Russian Federation how to deal with abundance of strong skaters. They have an option of sending 3 to Euro and another 3 to Worlds thus giving a fair opportunity to the maximum number of skaters allowed by the rules. Skaters themselves have an option to deal with the problem in their own way and try to switch to a different country. BTW what about Nicole Gosviani will she really compete for Italy now? Here I think rules should be less strict and allow a bigger freedom of movement for skaters - it is not a slavery after all.
All in all I enjoy it more seeing skaters from different countries at Euro & Worlds even if they are not at the level of top 7 Russians.
All in all I enjoy it more seeing skaters from different countries at Euro & Worlds even if they are not at the level of top 7 Russians.
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- Joined
- Oct 25, 2014
I'm going to respond this in particular, but it goes to all the other messages like this one.
I don't see why so much people are having this big of a problem in discussing the impossible possibility of Russia going to 4CC. I think it's a given it's not probable, potentially unfair and will never happen, but I don't see the need to say again and again that this discussion is unnecessary. If anything, people can discuss whatever they want, especially because they are not the ones making the rules.
I understand people not wanting Russia to go for the 4CC, but then coming to say that if a skater can't be ranked in their own country they have to move to another one, well, that's a bit too much. :noshake: This discussion only arised now because Russia has a strong group of kids coming, but this was not a reality four years ago. We don't know what will happen ten years from now, maybe it will be the time for another country to come with a lot of amazing kids. But treating the subject as something that can't even be discussed
seems too close to censoring, for me.Let people discuss. For instance, I even want my favorites non-russian skaters to win over the russians at the Euros, but it's still doesn't make me obtuse about the fact that the skating situation in Russia deserves to be at least discussed differently, in this particular topic - if it cannot be treated as such.
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- Joined
- Mar 8, 2013
Federation invests a lot of money in these skaters so it is understandable that they would not allow certain skaters easily switch countries...
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I agree but the current ban on competing for 2 seasons is too long - one would be probably fairer. It would not apply to Russia unfortunately but freedom of movement for workers within the EU is the law- why skaters should be treated any different?
@Coldblueeyes
I guess my opinion is a part of discussion too? Sorry if it differs from yours. it does seem a bit wasteful to me to discuss something which not going to happen ever but oh why not...
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- Joined
- Oct 25, 2014
@Coldblueeyes
I guess my opinion is a part of discussion too? Sorry if it differs from yours. it does seem a bit wasteful to me to discuss something which not going to happen ever but oh why not...
Yeah, yeah. You're opinion is part of a discussion you seem to not want to even exist. That's my problem with it.
And if it's wasteful for you, please, take the door out and don't discuss it, but don't censor it.
I'm going to drop it after this, because honestly it was quite clear the first time, my response to not really losing to younger less seasoned skaters was only applicable to previous seasons, Adelina obviously has issues currently, I just don't believe puberty is one of them. If this wasn't a response to my reply then no worries.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2015
this
Puberty has to do with it only in certain cases.
To be honest I was 99% sure that Lena will be out of medal contention this year due to it bt Im glad I was so deadly wrong:agree:
(sorry Lena I will never underestimate you
I think puberty by itself is too simplistic an explanation of some of the problems some of the Russian ladies have been having. Here are some other factors(that tie into puberty) that I think matter a lot too:
1. Attitude and mindset: Driven skaters with positive attitudes are more likely to maintain or improve their abilities. It can be harder to stay positive and driven after you've had success and are distracted by attention and feel the weight of expectations. And when there are problems(often caused by creative uncertainty or failing jump technique...), it can sometimes lead towards either a lackadaisical or a nihilistic change in mind. Also, what is in a skater's mind is somewhat influenced by what the skater thinks others think of herself which is why PR(perception management, not advertising) is sometimes important to keeping a skater in the right mindset.
2. Creative insecurity: The ladies less confident about their programs seem to have more problems. There are a lot of ways this could be reduced.
* Get more outside feedback early and often... it doesn't have to be public.... and it would be nice if it came from someone outside of Russia(or at least has lived outside of Russia for a long time).
* Experiment more and create extra programs... use exhibitions for to try out ideas... for skaters whose season's end early, start right away on new ideas even if you have to use a new choreographer... consider taking a break from the grand prix to focus on developing programs for the future.
* Don't be afraid to reuse old programs... especially ones that haven't been used on the senior grand prix circuit or a senior championship.
* When choreographing programs for juniors, imagine them trying to re-purpose that program as a senior and how that would work. Not only to give them a fallback option, but to keep the shift in mindset between being a junior and senior skater smaller.
* Don't reveal the programs to the world the same time you reveal them to each other and the Fed... it's best to get a lot of private criticism before taking on public criticism. The way (I think) it was done this season was not every smart as it leaves them confused on who they're trying to please.
* It's very important to get the costuming right...being more open when creating it and get it critiqued early.
* This is likely unrealistic, but I'd consider having a head choreographer who overseas everyone's programs early on for quality control.
3. Nutrition... there's A LOT on this that I could write about(and did before I removed it before submitting) based off of the news articles, message boards, ask.fms, instagrams, etc I've read but I'm just going to say that it's an area that needs greater study and focus. If I were in charge, I'd focus on making sure the younger skaters set good dietary habits. I'd consider having everyone keep a dietary log that could be audited. I'd look into creating something like Soylent(or DIY, or Super Body Fuel may be able to ship to Russia) for figure skaters. I currently use Soylent for half my meals because it significantly reduces the amount of mental effort needed to eat healthily.
4. Jump Technique... of course...
In general, what needs to be done is to anticipate future insecurities and stressors and be better prepare for them.
[EDIT]
I'm editing my original post to respond to Shayuki and moriel... I don't want this thread to be hijacked to talk about this issue... it would be worse than talking about sending skaters to both euros and 4cc.
My entire point is that if you don't make eating healthy extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely as in infinity and beyond simple then large groups of people will not eat healthy. It's about the immediate impulse of what to grab to eat... eating healthy(three big meals a day, 2-4 snacks a day) actually takes a lot of work.
And I didn't recommend Soylent... I said something like it... skaters would probably need something with a far different fat-carb-protein balance.
Shayuki mentions smoothies and I didn't think of that(as I'm not a big fan of them and prefer powders) and it is definitely something that should be promoted. But compared to protein powders and soylent, making smoothies still takes at least 2-3 times the effort(shop for each individual ingredient and worry about it running out or spoiling, have to grab and mix each ingredient, have to clean both a blender and bottle where with powders it's just shaker bottle)... and there's no way smoothies are cheaper than powders.
moriel completely ignore my main point...
1. Attitude and mindset: Driven skaters with positive attitudes are more likely to maintain or improve their abilities. It can be harder to stay positive and driven after you've had success and are distracted by attention and feel the weight of expectations. And when there are problems(often caused by creative uncertainty or failing jump technique...), it can sometimes lead towards either a lackadaisical or a nihilistic change in mind. Also, what is in a skater's mind is somewhat influenced by what the skater thinks others think of herself which is why PR(perception management, not advertising) is sometimes important to keeping a skater in the right mindset.
2. Creative insecurity: The ladies less confident about their programs seem to have more problems. There are a lot of ways this could be reduced.
* Get more outside feedback early and often... it doesn't have to be public.... and it would be nice if it came from someone outside of Russia(or at least has lived outside of Russia for a long time).
* Experiment more and create extra programs... use exhibitions for to try out ideas... for skaters whose season's end early, start right away on new ideas even if you have to use a new choreographer... consider taking a break from the grand prix to focus on developing programs for the future.
* Don't be afraid to reuse old programs... especially ones that haven't been used on the senior grand prix circuit or a senior championship.
* When choreographing programs for juniors, imagine them trying to re-purpose that program as a senior and how that would work. Not only to give them a fallback option, but to keep the shift in mindset between being a junior and senior skater smaller.
* Don't reveal the programs to the world the same time you reveal them to each other and the Fed... it's best to get a lot of private criticism before taking on public criticism. The way (I think) it was done this season was not every smart as it leaves them confused on who they're trying to please.
* It's very important to get the costuming right...being more open when creating it and get it critiqued early.
* This is likely unrealistic, but I'd consider having a head choreographer who overseas everyone's programs early on for quality control.
3. Nutrition... there's A LOT on this that I could write about(and did before I removed it before submitting) based off of the news articles, message boards, ask.fms, instagrams, etc I've read but I'm just going to say that it's an area that needs greater study and focus. If I were in charge, I'd focus on making sure the younger skaters set good dietary habits. I'd consider having everyone keep a dietary log that could be audited. I'd look into creating something like Soylent(or DIY, or Super Body Fuel may be able to ship to Russia) for figure skaters. I currently use Soylent for half my meals because it significantly reduces the amount of mental effort needed to eat healthily.
4. Jump Technique... of course...
In general, what needs to be done is to anticipate future insecurities and stressors and be better prepare for them.
[EDIT]
I'm editing my original post to respond to Shayuki and moriel... I don't want this thread to be hijacked to talk about this issue... it would be worse than talking about sending skaters to both euros and 4cc.
My entire point is that if you don't make eating healthy extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely as in infinity and beyond simple then large groups of people will not eat healthy. It's about the immediate impulse of what to grab to eat... eating healthy(three big meals a day, 2-4 snacks a day) actually takes a lot of work.
And I didn't recommend Soylent... I said something like it... skaters would probably need something with a far different fat-carb-protein balance.
Shayuki mentions smoothies and I didn't think of that(as I'm not a big fan of them and prefer powders) and it is definitely something that should be promoted. But compared to protein powders and soylent, making smoothies still takes at least 2-3 times the effort(shop for each individual ingredient and worry about it running out or spoiling, have to grab and mix each ingredient, have to clean both a blender and bottle where with powders it's just shaker bottle)... and there's no way smoothies are cheaper than powders.
moriel completely ignore my main point...
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- Joined
- Feb 25, 2006
A fun solution to the Russian crisis: to allow neighbouring countries to trade available spots - like for instance Latvia has 2 spots for Euro but only 1 skater to send thus losing one spot which can be 'sold' to Russia
Wouldn't want to see a good 2nd skater from a smaller country sitting at home because the country decided the spot would be better sold than used.
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
Soylent? Ugh. I would never recommend anyone to drink some powdery junk like that, even if soy wasn't awful for me.
The milk+quark+banana+blueberry+chia+coconut+choco powder+oat fiber smoothie I drink twice a day takes maybe 2 minutes to make, has nothing unnatural, has 500 calories and 15 grams of fiber, no added sugar, lots of protein, is more filling(Don't need to eat for at least 4 hours) and healthy and vitamin- and mineral-packed(naturally) than some powder drink. And it's oh, so delicious~. Aaand it costs less.
The milk+quark+banana+blueberry+chia+coconut+choco powder+oat fiber smoothie I drink twice a day takes maybe 2 minutes to make, has nothing unnatural, has 500 calories and 15 grams of fiber, no added sugar, lots of protein, is more filling(Don't need to eat for at least 4 hours) and healthy and vitamin- and mineral-packed(naturally) than some powder drink. And it's oh, so delicious~. Aaand it costs less.
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And drinking weird stuff like Soylent is just not healthy at all. Specially because scientists are not 100% sure about what is healthy and what isn't (just look at what is said to be good / bad every year) and you may be easily not eating something important by thinking "I eat healthy with Soylent"... I recall people saying the same about quite a bunch of stuff, and it wasn't right a single time =)
Also, this sort of stuff does not accomodate individual tastes and preferences and health issues.
For example, I cannot replace a meal with a smoothie. If i don't chew stuff, i'll still be hungry no matter how filling the liquid thing was. So it would just either make me eat more or be unhappy and not productive 24/7 =)
There are people who - surprise - don't like soy
Or are even allergic to it.
There are people who like specific foods...
So +100 on more natural and individual things.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
A fun solution to the Russian crisis: to allow neighbouring countries to trade available spots - like for instance Latvia has 2 spots for Euro but only 1 skater to send thus losing one spot which can be 'sold' to Russia
Latvia has another good skater Diana Nikitina who will be old enough to go to Euros next season though. She competed in juniors at Nationals this season, but her overall score was actually a couple points higher than Kuchvalska's.
Also, you never know when someone will have a big breakthrough at a major competition. I had never even heard of Kuchvalska before Euros last season but then she did awesome and it really put her on the map. I'd feel bad if another skater were deprived of such an opportunity due to spots being "sold" to a Nation like Russia.
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