Shoma Uno: 2014-2024

[ioanna]

When people watch Shoma they forget all about his bad jump technique because he is incredible and cute, but the same is not applied to countrywoman Miyahara. Double standards. :sarcasm:

 

[Violet Bliss]

When people watch Shoma they forget all about his bad jump technique because he is incredible and cute, but the same is not applied to countrywoman Miyahara. Double standards. :sarcasm:

Have Shoma's jumps been slo-moed and Zaprudered repeatedly like Satoko's yet?

 

[ioanna]

Have Shoma's jumps been slo-moed and Zaprudered repeatedly like Satoko's yet?

Not yet, because he's still behind Hanyu, Fernandez and Chan. The day he starts collecting more medals will be the day his jumps will be slo-moed and Zaprudered.

 

[skatefan22]

He's one of the most talented Japanese skaters right now, quad while still 17 is impressive. I think that he makes the same "error" on his toe-jumps as his countrywoman Miyahara - pre-rotation and that is why I am not on his bandwagon. What do you think about his jump technique?

I am not jump expert but I heard that almost everyone tends to prerotate and prerotation of less than 180 degree is generally acceptable. For example, I remember Johnny Weir's commentary on Yuzuru's Sochi 2014 world record breaking SP (05:08): "Look here on the quad toe, the reach back, just perfectly solid, right leg goes all the way through to get almost a half revolution before he is up in the air, then he finishes the other three and a half in the air, boom, quad!"

However, I sense that what most people are concerned about Satoko is not that she pre-rotates, but that she pre-rotates too much, i.e., more than 180 degree and sometimes can get up to 270 degree. For me, I am personally fine with that even if she pre-rotates 270 degree because it seems that ISU currently doesn't have a clear-cut rule on this regard as far as I know. Or in other words, pre-rotation is not ISU's current priority in judging. As long as ISU treats every stater equally in this regard, I am fine.

Another concern most people have with Satoko is that she still tends to under-rotate according to slow motion but doesn't get caught. And this is where the unfairness comes into play as ISU has a much clearer rule on this issue and apparently under-rotation is their current focus in judging a skater's jump.

As for Shoma, I haven't heard of complaints about him under-rotating. So I assume under-rotation is not his problem. I am not sure if he pre-rotates or not and if he does, now much he pre-rotates. Again, if he pre-rotates less than 180 degree, I think he is safe. If more than 180 degree, he probably needs to work on that. As although ISU doesn't pay much attention to pre-rotation right now, rumor has it that they will sooner or later implement a stricter and clearer rule about it (probably after 2018). That was mentioned by a Chinese commentator who is a ISU judge when he was commentating Satoko's program this year.

 

[ioanna]

Another concern most people have with Satoko is that she still tends to under-rotate according to slow motion but doesn't get caught. And this is where the unfairness comes into play as ISU has a much clearer rule on this issue and apparently under-rotation is their current focus in judging a skater's jump.

Then people don't bother reading protocols properly because she has received 4 UR calls, a downgrade and about 4 edge calls so far this season. I also feel like untrained eyes can't spot the difference between a quarter turn - which is not considered UR - and over a quarter turn. I'm no jump specialist either but I do believe she doesn't UR as much as people think.

Back to Shoma, his landings are almost always shaky and his free leg position needs to be fixed. Mulekicks on his flips and always struggling to get that outside edge for the lutz (while also doing the mulekick). As long as he lands them, he gets his +GOE though.

 

[Interspectator]

Then people don't bother reading protocols properly because she has received 4 UR calls, a downgrade and about 4 edge calls so far this season. I also feel like untrained eyes can't spot the difference between a quarter turn - which is not considered UR - and over a quarter turn. I'm no jump specialist either but I do believe she doesn't UR as much as people think.

Back to Shoma, his landings are almost always shaky and his free leg position needs to be fixed. Mulekicks on his flips and always struggling to get that outside edge for the lutz (while also doing the mulekick). As long as he lands them, he gets his +GOE though.

There are days when I think most of his jump issues are gone and he's fine and then some days are 'bad' jumping days (like both 4CCs) where his jumps are low and the landings are labored. But over all, I think he's making progress.

Mind you, we are talking about someone who has had enormous success in his Senior Debut year. He's doing just fine actually.

 

[Tutto]

When people watch Shoma they forget all about his bad jump technique because he is incredible and cute, but the same is not applied to countrywoman Miyahara. Double standards. :sarcasm:

Double standards? I must have expressed myself very badly indeed for which I apologise but I was saying that compared to Kolyada's textbook technique Shoma's is not so great. However, if you ask me to compare his to Satoko's I would say that his jumps are fine. On his good jumping day he gets good height and flow. He obviously has some problems to work on. But Satoko's problem is fundamental - she simply can't jump, she's got no spring whatsoever. Whatever she does is not jumping, some posters called it hops some - twizzles. It is something which I doubt can be fixed. She both pre-rotates & underrotates and she did not get one single UR call at 4CC that what makes people angry becuuse they feel it is not fair to other skaters.
Thus I don't 'forgive' Shoma for his less than perfect technique because he is cute but because his are minor issues which any skater has.

 

[ioanna]

But Satoko's problem is fundamental - she simply can't jump, she's got no spring whatsoever. Whatever she does is not jumping, some posters called it hops some - twizzles.

Many people who have seen her live disagree. The posters who called her jumps "hops" or "twizzles" were watching her on live stream. I would rather believe unbiased people who have written live reviews than most of the posters on this forum who call her "the judges' pet" :agree:

Back to Shoma - as Specs mentioned, depending on the day, his jumps are low and labored, he has a "mule kick" or "toe hammering" on his flips and lutzes and that is a technical flaw that I did not see punished in GOEs; on the contrary, he gets +GOE. He doesn't have the best 3A either but he's been getting constant +2.5 GOEs since last season when his 3A was worse than it is now. That is what I meant by double standards.

Quoting Kurt Browning's commentary on Satoko, "If you're consistently giving the judges a full program of clean jumps, then they get to see the big picture. And sometimes when you mar the landscape with mistakes, the judges never get to see the potential of the program. She gives the potential every time so they reward it."

That quote applies to both Satoko and Shoma. Both skaters give everything they've got almost all the time and in Satoko's case most of her competitors have often given lackluster programs all season. My point is, I wish people would stop spreading lies and hate and would show a bit of respect for these skaters. Everyone is allowed to have their opinion and say Satoko doesn't deserve her scores, but not with false arguments and least of all sarcasm and name-calling. That is all.

 

[Tutto]

Many people who have seen her live disagree. The posters who called her jumps "hops" or "twizzles" were watching her on live stream. I would rather believe unbiased people who have written live reviews than most of the posters on this forum who call her "the judges' pet" :agree:

Back to Shoma - as Specs mentioned, depending on the day, his jumps are low and labored, he has a "mule kick" or "toe hammering" on his flips and lutzes and that is a technical flaw that I did not see punished in GOEs; on the contrary, he gets +GOE. He doesn't have the best 3A either but he's been getting constant +2.5 GOEs since last season when his 3A was worse than it is now. That is what I meant by double standards.

Quoting Kurt Browning's commentary on Satoko, "If you're consistently giving the judges a full program of clean jumps, then they get to see the big picture. And sometimes when you mar the landscape with mistakes, the judges never get to see the potential of the program. She gives the potential every time so they reward it."

That quote applies to both Satoko and Shoma. Both skaters give everything they've got almost all the time and in Satoko's case most of her competitors have often given lackluster programs all season. My point is, I wish people would stop spreading lies and hate and would show a bit of respect for these skaters. Everyone is allowed to have their opinion and say Satoko doesn't deserve her scores, but not with false arguments and least of all sarcasm and name-calling. That is all.

I don't know why we even discussing Satoko in this thread. I respect your opinion you are obviously a devoted fan of Satoko which is fine she has many lovely qualities as a skater but jumps are not one of them. As the judges overlook her URs to reward her consistency they treat her as a special case which is wrong and a term a judges' pet adequately describes that no offence meant. They are not doing any favours to the skaters including Satoko who can be assured now her jumping technique is perfect.

 

[Pika]

Back to Shoma - as Specs mentioned, depending on the day, his jumps are low and labored, he has a "mule kick" or "toe hammering" on his flips and lutzes and that is a technical flaw that I did not see punished in GOEs; on the contrary, he gets +GOE.

Here are the criterias for GOE:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

And the errors deductions:

SP: Combo of one jump final GOE must be -3 Downgraded (sign << ) -2 to -3
SP: No required preceding steps/movements -3 Under-rotated (sign < ) -1 to -2
SP: Break between required steps/movements & jump/only 1 step/movement preceding jump -1 to -2
Lacking rotation (no sign)
including half loop in a combo -1
Fall -3
Poor speed, height, distance, air position -1 to -2
Landing on two feet in a jump -3
Touch down with both hands in a jump -2
Stepping out of landing in a jump -2 to -3
Touch down with one hand or free foot -1
2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2
Loss of flow/direction/rhythm between jumps
(combo/seq.) -1 to -2
Severe wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -2 to -3
Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc) -1 to -2
Unclear wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -2
Poor take-off -1 to -2
Unclear wrong edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1
Long preparation -1 to -2


In fact, Shoma's Flip can fill at least 2 positive bullets, which is enough to get positive GOEs. The toe hammer you're talking about doesn't go in an actual "error category". It's a technical flaw, but the judging system don't really punish them. I think it assumes that a bad technique will lead to a bad jump, but in some cases, it doesn't. When the skaters has enough talent.

 

[Plumededragon]

I don't know why we even discussing Satoko in this thread. I respect your opinion you are obviously a devoted fan of Satoko which is fine she has many lovely qualities as a skater but jumps are not one of them. As the judges overlook her URs to reward her consistency they treat her as a special case which is wrong and a term a judges' pet adequately describes that no offence meant. They are not doing any favours to the skaters including Satoko who can be assured now her jumping technique is perfect.

Wrong. She knows her jumps are far from flawless, she has said it enough time to know she wants to get better and works hard at it. People often do not see, nor understand that fixing and enhancing jump technique is hard and can take a long time to come. And they just need to look at the GOE she gets from her jumps to see she doesn't get rewarded that much, only +1 (with a few +2) because aside from the jumps, she fills many requierements for a good jump that allow her to get positive bonus. The lack of height is one of the main reason she gets low GOE bonus for her jumps compared to other skaters. Her highest GOE are always the spins and stsq, which is fair.
The skaters admire above all her nerves of steel and ability to be so consistent, not her jump technique. They're not fools. If Shoma acquires such nerves in the futurue, he will do wonders in future competitions. Right now, he's not very consistent, but he's still getting better and better. This first year as senior has giving him enough to think about and work hard, mainly thanks to Yuzu and Boyang.

Here are the criterias for GOE:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

And the errors deductions:

SP: Combo of one jump final GOE must be -3 Downgraded (sign << ) -2 to -3
SP: No required preceding steps/movements -3 Under-rotated (sign < ) -1 to -2
SP: Break between required steps/movements & jump/only 1 step/movement preceding jump -1 to -2
Lacking rotation (no sign)
including half loop in a combo -1
Fall -3
Poor speed, height, distance, air position -1 to -2
Landing on two feet in a jump -3
Touch down with both hands in a jump -2
Stepping out of landing in a jump -2 to -3
Touch down with one hand or free foot -1
2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2
Loss of flow/direction/rhythm between jumps
(combo/seq.) -1 to -2
Severe wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -2 to -3
Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc) -1 to -2
Unclear wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -2
Poor take-off -1 to -2
Unclear wrong edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1
Long preparation -1 to -2


In fact, Shoma's Flip can fill at least 2 positive bullets, which is enough to get positive GOEs. The toe hammer you're talking about doesn't go in an actual "error category". It's a technical flaw, but the judging system don't really punish them. I think it assumes that a bad technique will lead to a bad jump, but in some cases, it doesn't. When the skaters has enough talent.

Agree with this. Shoma's technique is far from flawless, but he does land the jumps and get rewarded for including other criterias that makes up enough to get positive GOE. The kid is still learning, anyway. Just like Satoko is. Their situation are different, but they are both young and will both eventually give better and better jumps in time. People just need to be patient to see the results because good quality jumps don't happen with a snap of fingers. Considering what we have seen from Shoma so far, we can safely bet we'll see even better in the next season (or maybe even in Boston? Who knows?)

 

[ioanna]

The toe hammer often leads to weak landings (of which he has many of them on bad days): bad position, wrong edge, scratching, etc. The point is that he receives +GOE for that. I'm not here to bash Shoma; I've been posting in his thread and supporting him since he was still doing JGPs. But since someone compared him to Satoko I just pointed out that both make errors who are overlooked by the judges and they are not the only skaters whose errors are overlooked.

Also, no matter how you look at it, the expression "the judges' pet" is very offensive for whoever skater is targeted.

 

[skatefan22]

Every skater has his/her own issues to address.

Satoko: pre-rotation, under-rotation, sometimes not clear edge, lack of height and distance, etc. Shoma: landing position, mulekick, etc. So looks like these two young skaters, except that they both come from the same country and talented, they don't have much in common in terms of skating technique and style.

I notice that there has been a heated "Satoko jumping issue debate" going on on this forum and on other social media platforms as well, but I personally don't think Shoma qualifies to be dragged into this Satoko debate because as I said, they are very different.

Therefore, may I suggest we focus on Shoma in his fan thread?

 

[SuzyQ]

Shoma's videos:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/hana0201402015-sub/archives/4192403.html

Translation of Akiko's interview:
http://shoma-uno.tumblr.com/post/140633334438/akikos-interview-with-shoma-at-his-graduation

Thank you for the uploader :agree:

 

[Danibellerika]

I can't be the only one getting Ouran High School Host Club vibes from his hair and outfit, lol.

 

[deedee1]

Good luck to Shoma at his debuting senior worlds in Boston!
Who's going to Boston and cheer very hard for Shoma for me, too, may I ask?

 

[Arriba627]

Good luck to Shoma at his debuting senior worlds in Boston!
Who's going to Boston and cheer very hard for Shoma for me, too, may I ask?

I am going and will be cheering loudly for Shoma. I'm already practicing my cheering at home!!! He is SO exciting live, and I hope and pray he has a wonderful skate. I wonder how his practices are going - great, I hope.

 

[deedee1]

I am going and will be cheering loudly for Shoma. I'm already practicing my cheering at home!!! He is SO exciting live, and I hope and pray he has a wonderful skate. I wonder how his practices are going - great, I hope.

Thank you, Arriba!

Yes, Shoma's very exciting to watch, esp. LIVE. :agree: I watched him at the Nats in 2014 live for the first time; he didn't have 3 axles nor no quads yet back then, and looked tiny compared to other big boys. But when he started his performance, his musicality, speed and presence on ice was very noticeable to the crowds, and most of all, he did skate big. :yes:

Please have great time there!

 

[Arriba627]

Thank you, Arriba!

Yes, Shoma's very exciting to watch, esp. LIVE. :agree: I watched him at the Nats in 2014 live for the first time; he didn't have 3 axles nor no quads yet back then, and looked tiny compared to other big boys. But when he started his performance, his musicality, speed and presence on ice was very noticeable to the crowds, and most of all, he did skate big. :yes:

Please have great time there!

Thank you for this awesome description of the tiny one and his skating. When I saw him at Skate America, he really proved he could skate with the "big boys". If he hadn't fallen on his quad in the short program, I have to believe he would have won gold. As it was, he barely missed the gold (which was won by Max Aaron). Not bad for a senior Grand Prix debut. I just love everything about him - his interactions with Coach Higuchi, his leprechaun costume, his teenage awkwardness, and on and on!

 

[deedee1]

Yes, Shoma's very exciting to watch, esp. LIVE. :agree: I watched him at the Nats in 2014 live for the first time; he didn't have 3 axles nor no quads yet back then, and looked tiny compared to other big boys. But when he started his performance, his musicality, speed and presence on ice was very noticeable to the crowds, and most of all, he did skate big. :yes:

:hslap: ah! It was the Nats in 2013-14 season, so should have been in December 2013. Anyway, here are his performances there : SP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dioh03vjJfI FS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUFub6vvKOU