Thoughts on Satoko Miyahara's skating

[Crossover]

Kaori Sakamoto is also very small but jumps big.

Yep. a couple of people on the thread for JGP events where Kaori competed said she reminds of Midori in terms of her jump scale.

 

[enzet]

I support your reasoning. Having a small body does not automatically make your jumps (in height and distance), or skating look small. Alexandra Proklova for example, was tiny but had great projection to the audience. Her jumps did not look small at. We only see the relative height of a person and scale of jumps from TV or computer screen. So I would image that small jumps on screen will appear even smaller in real life.

This is absolutely subjective and will differ person to person.

I am not a Satoko fan, but I saw both her and Proklova in person and while Satoko totally drew me in her performance and made me forget about everything else, Alexandra left me absolutely cold despite skating to more dramatic music and putting a lot of effort into her performance.

Also, I consider Satoko to be one of the most musical skaters out there with very nuanced interpretation.

 

[withwings]

I have to agree- Satoko is the only skater who truly takes my heart. To watch her is like to listen a music of Bach- it is an art, it is a music, it is a purity.

 

[mcq]

She is actually one of the very few currently competing senior skaters that I enjoy. Yes, her jumps are small and it has been talked and debated about gazillion times here, but I think her other quality (spins, grace, elegance, artistry) makes up for it. I can understand if she is not everyone's cup of tea though, maybe her style is not fiery/exciting enough for some people (which is why I would love to see her do something more "fiery" like her firedance SP or hernando's hideaway" ex). Her SP this season is a bit dull for my taste compared to last season's. Her FS this season is, in my opinion, better than last season's.

What is interesting about the reaction of her skating is, in my opinion, that some either think she is unfairly underscored or in contrast the others who think she is unfairly over-scored. I think her placement is most of the time about right and justifiable. When others did not deliver she deserved to be on top, but when her contemporaries skated clean I could see why the judges would put someone else above her. Due to how tight her rotations were, she is going to have close rotation call in the future which is going to affect her placement and be debated over and over in this forum. However, she is not the only one with UR problems (Wagner, Asada etc), thus when one over the other skates "clean" their placement will vary a lot event to event and it will also depend on the leniency/strictness of the tech panel.

Overall, a solid skater.

 

[ioanna]

Kaori Sakamoto is also very small but jumps big.

Is she? Her ISU bio states that she's 156 cm. That's not very small.

Anyway I think the reasons why Satoko's jumps are so small have been mentioned over and over again.

 

[jenm]

I could watch Satoko all day. In my opinion, she is more polished than any of the Russian ladies who skates bigger and with more personality.
Her skating skills are much more precise and cleaner than Ashley's. In fact, I think that her blade to ice skills are reminiscent of Mao and Carolina and her upper body movements are Yuna-esque.

 

[andromache]

I could watch Satoko all day. In my opinion, she is more polished than any of the Russian ladies who skates bigger and with more personality.
Her skating skills are much more precise and cleaner than Ashley's. In fact, I think that her blade to ice skills are reminiscent of Mao and Carolina and her upper body movements are Yuna-esque.

Agree with you regarding her skating skills - extremely precise and polished, reminiscent of Mao, kind of lacking the speed of a Yuna or a Carolina though. Disagree on the arms. Yuna's arms had the appearance of graceful spontaneity when doing choreography, IMO, whereas Satoko (who is also very graceful, obviously) lacks a certain sense of freedom to her movements. The very best performers seem to move in natural, spontaneous response to the music, and while Satoko has better choreography and executes it much better than someone like Elena Radionova, she also lacks a quality of freedom/spontaneity that Elena has. Of course, I'm not saying that Elena is a better performer than Satoko - for all the passion she exhibits during her programs, it does result in bad posture and flaily limbs. Each could do with some of what the other has, IMO.

 

[Lipea]

I disagree that Satoko needs more refinement. Personally, I feel that she is more refined than Gracie Gold and Elena Radionova, for example. Satoko has great posture, deep edges, and lovely arms. I do agree that her small physique makes all her movements appear "smaller" than other skaters (I've seen her live at Worlds 2016), but what can she do? All she can do is to do her very best to improve, and that is why I respect her although she is not one of my favorites. I was absolutely shocked how she was lowballed in PCS at Worlds. She should have received a 68-69, not a 66...

Agree with you 100%! I also thought that she should be way above Radionova and Gracie and even Pogo in terms of PCS in Worlds; she is on the level of Ashley and Mao. I was there at Worlds too and was absolutely impressed seeing this girl live, such amazing skating skills, gracefullness, choreography refinements, very unexpected for her petiteness. I actually liked her small jumps - she rotates soo fast!

 

[Lipea]

I actually don't think that big jumps are necessarily better than small ones.
Skaters who have small jumps rotate very fast: to me, the effect of these jumps is just as impressive.

 

[Lipea]

Since I'm one of the most firm believers that Satoko has musicality, can perform, can interpret and can express the music, I'm going to back up my opinion using some stills from competitions.

IMO, Satoko is one of the most connected to music performers in figure skating world. And always with sophisticated music choices.

 

[Lipea]

The tiny jumps. I can't. Tiny, under/barely rotated jumps do not deserve the same amount of points as jumps with huge height and distance. The less height and distance you get on your jumps, the easier they are to land, IMO.

Satoko's jumps have actually fine height and especially distance in ratio to her height. If you consider the height of, for example, Elena's jumps in ratio to how tall she is, they probably will appear even smaller. It matters because the fall/land chance is relative to the size of the person.
The less height you get on your jumps - harder it is to have rotations, IMO, and Satoko is extremely fast in rotations, which IMO deserve reward. And regarding pre-rotations she is so often blamed for - there are a lot of people who prerotate, look at Evgenia, her jumps don't even need to be put in slow motion to notice that.

 

[jenm]

Agree with you regarding her skating skills - extremely precise and polished, reminiscent of Mao, kind of lacking the speed of a Yuna or a Carolina though. Disagree on the arms. Yuna's arms had the appearance of graceful spontaneity when doing choreography, IMO, whereas Satoko (who is also very graceful, obviously) lacks a certain sense of freedom to her movements. The very best performers seem to move in natural, spontaneous response to the music, and while Satoko has better choreography and executes it much better than someone like Elena Radionova, she also lacks a quality of freedom/spontaneity that Elena has. Of course, I'm not saying that Elena is a better performer than Satoko - for all the passion she exhibits during her programs, it does result in bad posture and flaily limbs. Each could do with some of what the other has, IMO.

Her arm movements are obviously not as great as Yuna's but she's on that direction, and I'm a huuuge fan of Yuna's beautiful upper body movements. She'll get there with more practice and experience, of course. I agree that she's not as fast as Caro but on the other qualities that make up SS, she's almost like her. Not as great but she reminds me of these three.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Satoko's jumps have actually fine height and especially distance in ratio to her height.

This argument is coming up so often... but no, it's not true. There are enough 'small' skaters to disprove it - Midori Ito first and foremost. And it's also true that bigger jumps are more difficult to do... bigger amplitude, more power necessary that you have to be able to control, especially more impact on the landing. It's fine if you like them, but that doesn't mean they should be considered as good as bigger jumps in the sense that FS is a sport too.

Re: the argument with Evgenia... there are a lot of people (like me) who are also calling her out for her excessive pre-rotation. And that aside, "skater X does it too!" is not really an argument, and does not make any of the criticism like those against Satoko any less valid (and no, Shoma's 4F doesn't either).

 

[mcq]

Satoko's jumps have actually fine height and especially distance in ratio to her height.

I don't think someone's height should be a major consideration of the height of one's jumps. Satoko is listed as 149-150 cm on her ISU bio while midori ito is actually smaller than Satoko (145 cm), but she is kind of a rare case and she jumped higher than even most men. Another example is wakaba higuchi, she is 150 cm (according to her ISU bio) but she has pretty good height on her jumps. Rika Kihira is also as tall as Satoko, so I don't think her height is necessarily the main issue of the lack of height in her jumps.

That said, I actually think Satoko improve the height of her jumps by a bit from what I have seen in US Classic. I don't know, just the impression that I get.

 

[solani]

If there will ever be any changes in the rulebook then the only jumps I would agree with calling excessive PR on would be her toeloop and her flip. I don't think the lutz is any different than many of the other ladies. Her edge jumps are all ok. But if this were to happen and her TES would drop then I think a raise of her PCS would be fair, IMO. Then she would have to give up on her flip and work on replacing the toeloop with a loop. I know she can jump 2A-3Lo, for instance.

A 2A-3Lo would be just the thing. She's so predictable at the moment, something unusual, something not everyone does would be nice for her imo. Because her biggest problem right now is that if her competitors are clean or almost clean she's off the podium at Worlds. Her consistency isn't going to change that. I can see why she's repeating the 3Lz in the long, the base value is really worth it, but I cannot find a logical explanation why she's doing the 3F in the short right now, because her 3Lo is way better. And repeating the 3T in the long seem wrong to me if she can do a 2A-3Lo. It's time for her to take a couple of risks if she wants to keep up with her competitors. Because she's doing so many things right - she has fine programs, good taste in music, outfit, delicate expression, she's a great spinner and a delightful skater.

 

[shiroKJ]

I don't think someone's height should be a major consideration of the height of one's jumps. Satoko is listed as 149-150 cm on her ISU bio while midori ito is actually smaller than Satoko (145 cm), but she is kind of a rare case and she jumped higher than even most men. Another example is wakaba higuchi, she is 150 cm (according to her ISU bio) but she has pretty good height on her jumps. Rika Kihira is also as tall as Satoko, so I don't think her height is necessarily the main issue of the lack of height in her jumps.

That said, I actually think Satoko improve the height of her jumps by a bit from what I have seen in US Classic. I don't know, just the impression that I get.

Another great example is Karen Chen who last season/2 seasons ago was smaller, at 149-150cm and her jumps were just as huge as now. And Vivian le also had the big jumps when she was still around 150cm.

 

[ioanna]

A 2A-3Lo would be just the thing. She's so predictable at the moment, something unusual, something not everyone does would be nice for her imo. Because her biggest problem right now is that if her competitors are clean or almost clean she's off the podium at Worlds. Her consistency isn't going to change that. I can see why she's repeating the 3Lz in the long, the base value is really worth it, but I cannot find a logical explanation why she's doing the 3F in the short right now, because her 3Lo is way better. And repeating the 3T in the long seem wrong to me if she can do a 2A-3Lo. It's time for her to take a couple of risks if she wants to keep up with her competitors. Because she's doing so many things right - she has fine programs, good taste in music, outfit, delicate expression, she's a great spinner and a delightful skater.

I'm pretty sure she would do 2A-3Lo if it were consistent and rewarded enough but ironically her 2A-3T has been her biggest point getter in terms of jumps. I can see why her team wouldn't want to get rid of it. On the other hand I agree with you about replacing the 3F with a 3Lo in the SP. It's not worth having a flip if she's going to keep getting ! or e calls for it and losing points she would be able to keep if she'd do a loop instead. But compared to previous seasons, she is starting to take some risks now; she moved the 3-3 in the second half of the SP, got rid of one of the two 2A-3T combos in the FS, and as ridiculous as it sounds for a lot of people, introducing a 3A sometime this season. If anything, it's her strong determination that will help her land a 3A in competition, just like she learned to jump in the opposite direction of her dominant side and becoming one of the top ladies today.

 

[cl2]

Satoko's jumps have actually fine height and especially distance in ratio to her height. If you consider the height of, for example, Elena's jumps in ratio to how tall she is, they probably will appear even smaller. It matters because the fall/land chance is relative to the size of the person.
The less height you get on your jumps - harder it is to have rotations, IMO, and Satoko is extremely fast in rotations, which IMO deserve reward. And regarding pre-rotations she is so often blamed for - there are a lot of people who prerotate, look at Evgenia, her jumps don't even need to be put in slow motion to notice that.

Some of her jumps are passable in terms of height, like her 2A-3T, but not all her jumps do (her 3F is super scary to watch!).

I'm in the "luv her" faction, but I do think her quick rotation on jumps are totally out of character with her lyrical style of skating and musical choreo. It's like, I'm engrossed in nice flowy edges and beautiful lines, then suddenly whippy snappy jump, and then back to flowy edges.

 

[shiroKJ]

Fortunately for them neither Karen nor Vivien were forced to jump against their natural direction, unlike Satoko.

Yes it's unfortunate for Satoko but many skaters have other circumstances that affect different aspects of their skating.

E.g. Back problems could = less flexible spins. Many people prefer more versatile spinners (good layback, etc)

Just because there is a reason doesn't mean it should gets a pass, judging wise. What she lacked in her jumps (and IMO speed) she made up for in her spins and refinement. Like I said, she's a wonderful, hardworking person but you can't fault those who are unimpressed by her jumps. It's half the sport, after all.

 

[ioanna]

Yes it's unfortunate for Satoko but many skaters have other circumstances that affect different aspects of their skating.

E.g. Back problems could = less flexible spins. Many people prefer more versatile spinners (good layback, etc)

That's downplaying her problem. Having to jump against the dominant direction does not equal back problems leading to less flexible spins, or any other circumstances for that matter. It's interfering with the most important aspect of the sport, with little room to fix it. She jumps counter-clockwise but writes, holds, picks up things with her left hand. She's not ambidextrous.

Imagine a child learning the basics of writing with their left hand and then being forced to hold the pen with the right hand while teachers evaluate the quality of their handwriting following the same criteria for right handed children. Compared to the right handed children, wouldn't this child's handwriting look like a mess? Would they ever be able to write as clean and cursive as they would have been able to do with their dominant side? There are real, medically and psychologically proven consequences of people being forced to function against their dominant side. Bad handwriting (bad jumping in Satoko's case), excessive shyness, insecurities, holding back (that lack of abandon so many people think she has).

Basically it has less to do with her height and more to do with the way her brain functions when she trains or competes. The consistent use of the non-dominant part of the brain affects the ability to adapt to new things (her coaches have stated that she's always been a slow learner), the ability to concentrate and it even affects the personality. A lot of people don't realize the extent of her problem and effort at all. Most people who defend her are not trying to come up with excuses to invalidate criticism, I personally want to see a little more understanding and a little less bashing (before people jump on me, I'm not talking about those who bring reasonable criticism), ridiculing and the occasional name-calling.