Thoughts on Satoko Miyahara's skating

[jenaj]

Satoko's jumps have actually fine height and especially distance in ratio to her height. If you consider the height of, for example, Elena's jumps in ratio to how tall she is, they probably will appear even smaller. It matters because the fall/land chance is relative to the size of the person.
The less height you get on your jumps - harder it is to have rotations, IMO, and Satoko is extremely fast in rotations, which IMO deserve reward. And regarding pre-rotations she is so often blamed for - there are a lot of people who prerotate, look at Evgenia, her jumps don't even need to be put in slow motion to notice that.

I am a Satoko fan, but there is no denying the lack of height on her jumps. But height and/or distance is just one of the zillions of--oops, I mean 6--factors that the judges are supposed to consider in assessing GOE. Theoretically, she could get +2 or +3 GOE even with small jumps (note that I said "theoretically"). But my problem with Satoko's scores is not with her TES. It's with her PCS. She should not be penalized for small jumps (or small stature) on the second mark.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm in the "luv her" faction, but I do think her quick rotation on jumps are totally out of character with her lyrical style of skating and musical choreo. It's like, I'm engrossed in nice flowy edges and beautiful lines, then suddenly whippy snappy jump, and then back to flowy edges.

I've said this before but I think it actually opens the door for affecting PCS scores. Just like when a skater nails their jumps with extra special zing they may see a boost in PCS. It's hard to deny that jumps can play a role in a programs overall impact.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I am a Satoko fan, but there is no denying the lack of height on her jumps. But height and/or distance is just one of the zillions of--oops, I mean 6--factors that the judges are supposed to consider in assessing GOE. Theoretically, she could get +2 or +3 GOE even with small jumps (note that I said "theoretically"). But my problem with Satoko's scores is not with her TES. It's with her PCS. She should not be penalized for small jumps (or small stature) on the second mark.

There are actually 8 criteria for positive jump GOE, out of which only one correlates to height/distance. Nevertheless, poor height and distance is also a factor for a negative GOE, going from -1 to -2 (just as much as poor air position, for example). So small jumps shouldn't be getting +3's overall, even if they hit the other positive GOE factors.

 

[solani]

I'm pretty sure she would do 2A-3Lo if it were consistent and rewarded enough but ironically her 2A-3T has been her biggest point getter in terms of jumps. I can see why her team wouldn't want to get rid of it. On the other hand I agree with you about replacing the 3F with a 3Lo in the SP. It's not worth having a flip if she's going to keep getting ! or e calls for it and losing points she would be able to keep if she'd do a loop instead. But compared to previous seasons, she is starting to take some risks now; she moved the 3-3 in the second half of the SP, got rid of one of the two 2A-3T combos in the FS, and as ridiculous as it sounds for a lot of people, introducing a 3A sometime this season. If anything, it's her strong determination that will help her land a 3A in competition, just like she learned to jump in the opposite direction of her dominant side and becoming one of the top ladies today.

I'm curious about that 3A. I don't think that she totally cannot do it, but I doubt that she can get it consistent, meaning Satoko Miyahara consistent. Not falling for what feels like 3 seasons. There's no doubt that a 3A could give her an edge, but I'd like her too take a safer route, because we all have no idea what happens to her after a fall in competition. Would she be able to get it together like Mao did in the past after a heavy fall on a 3A attempt?
I just think she could be more interesting without a 3A and I sincerely hope that she and her team are on the right track.

 

[jenaj]

There are actually 8 criteria for positive jump GOE, out of which only one correlates to height/distance. Nevertheless, poor height and distance is also a factor for a negative GOE, going from -1 to -2 (just as much as poor air position, for example). So small jumps shouldn't be getting +3's overall, even if they hit the other positive GOE factors.

So it's even closer to a zillion than I thought! A skater with small jumps could still get 7 bullets (all except height and distance) and still have +3, assuming only a -1 deduction. Purely hypothetically, of course!

 

[Li'Kitsu]

So it's even closer to a zillion than I thought! A skater with small jumps could still get 7 bullets (all except height and distance) and still have +3, assuming only a -1 deduction. Purely hypothetically, of course!

7 Bullet points = +3. Then +3 -1 = +2. You substract the -1 from the overall positive GOE.

 

[hippomoomin]

Vivian Le is a good example. Last year when I first notice her at JGP, I though she could do a quad.

Another great example is Karen Chen who last season/2 seasons ago was smaller, at 149-150cm and her jumps were just as huge as now. And Vivian le also had the big jumps when she was still around 150cm.

 

[jenaj]

7 Bullet points = +3. Then +3 -1 = +2. You substract the -1 from the overall positive GOE.

Ok. Well I think I said +2 or +3. So theoretically, she could get +2.

 

[ssffww]

I'm curious about that 3A. I don't think that she totally cannot do it, but I doubt that she can get it consistent, meaning Satoko Miyahara consistent. Not falling for what feels like 3 seasons. There's no doubt that a 3A could give her an edge, but I'd like her too take a safer route, because we all have no idea what happens to her after a fall in competition. Would she be able to get it together like Mao did in the past after a heavy fall on a 3A attempt?
I just think she could be more interesting without a 3A and I sincerely hope that she and her team are on the right track.

Satoko ALMOST never falls, but she fell at Skate America last year and took BRONZE. Evgenia fell twice - Skate America and Rostlecom Cup, both times on the axle I believe, but I could be wrong. I lost count of everyone else's falls. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpusa2015/gpusa2015_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[ioanna]

Yeah Satoko fell at Skate America but the backstory of that competition was that she hadn't trained enough because she was taking university admission exams.

Can we stop comparing her jumps to other skaters as small as her now? I think everyone agrees her height has little to do with her jumps. At least that's what I hope after sharing my two cents on the previous page of this thread.

 

[apgold]

I'm wondering what Satoko's chances will be at Skate Canada? She'll be skating against Medvedeva, so I think she should win silver unless Evgenia has a meltdown (which is unlikely). Tuktamysheva is too much of a wild card. She'll also be skating against her pal Rika Hongo. Should be interesting to see and I will be watching in person

 

[ioanna]

I'm wondering what Satoko's chances will be at Skate Canada? She'll be skating against Medvedeva, so I think she should win silver unless Evgenia has a meltdown (which is unlikely). Tuktamysheva is too much of a wild card. She'll also be skating against her pal Rika Hongo. Should be interesting to see and I will be watching in person

I think Japan Open will offer a bit of a sneak peek on Satoko vs Evgenia but at the same time I'm curious to see which programs would the judges appreciate more this season: Satoko's Planets Suite FS or Evgenia's 9/11 and other world disasters tribute FS. Last season, the biggest difference between them was the PCS with Evgenia receiving the biggest and Satoko receiving the lowest of the top ladies.

 

[Celine]

Thought Satoko looked gorgeous at US Classic. White is not necessarily easy to pull off. Her design is to be complimented, and the overall impression was worth many a pic in my opinion. :agree:

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think her packaging in the SP is totally spot-on this season, but the program...UGH, it kills me how good she could be but won't be. Music cut and choreography could be a lot better, it doesn't build well enough. Those big climaxes are thrown away. It actively annoys me that they put a 1 second spiral in the program. Who is that supposed to impress?!? What is that supposed to convey?!? It's just nothing, totally random throw-in movement just to have it. Blah.

 

[Lambari]

She looks more lively than ever at her new SP :luv17: Gorgeous with that hair in both programs. And in her case I couldn't care less for the height of her jumps or lack thereoff.
But I'm not a judge

 

[Lipea]

This argument is coming up so often... but no, it's not true. There are enough 'small' skaters to disprove it - Midori Ito first and foremost. And it's also true that bigger jumps are more difficult to do... bigger amplitude, more power necessary that you have to be able to control, especially more impact on the landing. It's fine if you like them, but that doesn't mean they should be considered as good as bigger jumps in the sense that FS is a sport too.

Midori had an outstanding height of jumps for her body. There are very few skaters now who could be comparable - Liza Tuk, and probably Adelina.

So I didn't say that Satoko is an outstanding jumper. My point is, that she is nothing worse of a jumper than current top skaters - Medvedeva, Radionova, Ashley, even Gracie in her last two years. Comparing with these ladies, Satoko's jump height would be similar in proportion to her body size.

And I thought I explaned my point about low jumps versus big jumps. Yes, for the big one you need more muscle power and certainly a proper technique (not like Med or Rad), but for the small ones, you have to rotate very fast, be tighter in the air, which are also a skills and requires physical abilities. For ex. Adelina jumps very high but she struggles with rotating fast enough and have tighter position in the air, so she often underrotates.

Someone jumps high, someone rotates fast - and the proportion of each differs in each case.

 

[Lipea]

Yeah Satoko fell at Skate America but the backstory of that competition was that she hadn't trained enough because she was taking university admission exams.

Can we stop comparing her jumps to other skaters as small as her now? I think everyone agrees her height has little to do with her jumps. At least that's what I hope after sharing my two cents on the previous page of this thread.

No, I don't agree with you. One has to be a small person to understand that despite it is cute there are certain physical disadvantages that come with it.
And to simply give examples of someone, who is almost same height, but out of the box and has somehow an outstanding ability to do that thing like or better than ordinary-size people, is bad example. If you want to actually prove something, then it has to be an actual analysis. One would have to make two categories - top small ladies in the history of FS, and top tall ladies. And get a percentage of skaters of each category who have big jumps, small jumps and average jumps. I assure you, that among taller ladies you will mostly have average and big jumps, whereas smaller ones appear more frequently within short petite girls and juniors.

 

[Lambari]

I think that comparing Satoko to other skaters with similar heights is also pointless but not because I think that height isn't a factor when it comes to the size of their jumps but because people aren't giving nearly enough importance to skaters' body type which I think influences much more on the quality of jumps than how many cms/inches a skater may have. Two skaters might be the same height but one of them could have higher muscle percentage and/or longer legs and therefore higher strenght and impulse resulting in bigger jumps or vice versa. That's why IMO skaters like Midori and, in pairs, Megan Duhamel escape from having tiny jumps even though they're not particularly tall. Just my take on it.

 

[Lipea]

And lastly. about jumps, my point is that Satoko actually has a proper jump technique as most Japanese ladies. Meaning not the edges, but the fact that she does not muscle her jumps like most of young Russian ladies, and maintains good speed into jumps, and has beautiful position landings. Which means, that she simply cannot jump higher. It is her limitation, one cannot blame her about. I am sure if she could make her jumps bigger somehow, she would do it, because she is such a hard worker. Instead, all the other qualities of her skating consistently improving while jumps remain the same since at least 2014.

 

[Lipea]

I think that comparing Satoko to other skaters with similar heights is also pointless but not because I think that height isn't a factor when it comes to the size of their jumps but because people aren't giving nearly enough importance to skaters' body type which I think influences much more on the quality of jumps than how many cms/inches a skater may have. Two skaters might be the same height but one of them could have higher muscle percentage and/or longer legs and therefore higher strenght and impulse resulting in bigger jumps or vice versa. That's why IMO skaters like Midori and, in pairs, Megan Duhamel escape from having tiny jumps even though they're not particularly tall. Just my take on it.

I agree with it too.
Still, taller/bigger girls with proper technique don't have this issue - I cannot recall any...