Thoughts on Satoko Miyahara's skating

[hippomoomin]

I think rotation speed is somewhat correlated to how skinny a person is. That's why so many lady skaters are not as consistent as they were younger; they just grow wider but not taller. And for a tall skater, a few pounds will make a big difference. Mao used to rotate faster when she was 19 or even 22. So Mao lost her "amazing ability" to rotate fast?? Most junior ladies rotate lighting fast, but not when they are older.
Very few skaters stay in the same body, and for those do, they don't actually need textbook jumping techniques, including Satoko. Sasha Cohen is another one, who stayed tiny and skinny for her entire competitive career. Yuna also kept her size, though she has great technique to start with.

Midori had an outstanding height of jumps for her body. There are very few skaters now who could be comparable - Liza Tuk, and probably Adelina.

So I didn't say that Satoko is an outstanding jumper. My point is, that she is nothing worse of a jumper than current top skaters - Medvedeva, Radionova, Ashley, even Gracie in her last two years. Comparing with these ladies, Satoko's jump height would be similar in proportion to her body size.

And I thought I explaned my point about low jumps versus big jumps. Yes, for the big one you need more muscle power and certainly a proper technique (not like Med or Rad), but for the small ones, you have to rotate very fast, be tighter in the air, which are also a skills and requires physical abilities. For ex. Adelina jumps very high but she struggles with rotating fast enough and have tighter position in the air, so she often underrotates.

Someone jumps high, someone rotates fast - and the proportion of each differs in each case.

 

[Lipea]

I think rotation speed is somewhat correlated to how skinny a person is. That's why so many lady skaters are not as consistent as they were younger; they just grow wider but not taller. And for a tall skater, a few pounds will make a big difference. Mao used to rotate faster when she was 19 or even 22. So Mao lost her "amazing ability" to rotate fast?? Most junior ladies rotate lighting fast, but not when they are older.
Very few skaters stay in the same body, and for those do, they don't actually need textbook jumping techniques, including Satoko. Sasha Cohen is another one, who stayed tiny and skinny for her entire competitive career. Yuna also kept her size, though she has great technique to start with.

Surely, the weight affects the height/power AND rotation speed of a jump.

 

[ioanna]

No, I don't agree with you. One has to be a small person to understand that despite it is cute there are certain physical disadvantages that come with it.
And to simply give examples of someone, who is almost same height, but out of the box and has somehow an outstanding ability to do that thing like or better than ordinary-size people, is bad example. If you want to actually prove something, then it has to be an actual analysis. One would have to make two categories - top small ladies in the history of FS, and top tall ladies. And get a percentage of skaters of each category who have big jumps, small jumps and average jumps. I assure you, that among taller ladies you will mostly have average and big jumps, whereas smaller ones appear more frequently within short petite girls and juniors.

My point is that in Satoko's case it has less to do with her height and body type (though body type has a strong influence as well) and more to do with the constant use of the non-dominant part of her brain.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

So I didn't say that Satoko is an outstanding jumper. My point is, that she is nothing worse of a jumper than current top skaters - Medvedeva, Radionova, Ashley, even Gracie in her last two years. Comparing with these ladies, Satoko's jump height would be similar in proportion to her body size.

Height is one factor that can play into the quality of someones jumps, but as was already mentioned, there are other more important physical characteristics, like muscle density. That "personal height = jumping height" ratio thing is BS. Being very tall is actually a disadvantage, as it makes it a lot harder to hold your position in the air. Being taller often also correlates with more weight, which is also a big factor (in jumping high and in rotating fast).

And Adelina is your example for someone who 'often underrotates'? Adelina is currently not in shape, but in 2013-14 and before she basically never underrotated any single triples, the only problem she had was on the 3Lz3T.... she's not a good example for this, really (but it's not the first time I see someone call Adelina someone who 'often underrotates'... where is that coming from?)

And lastly. about jumps, my point is that Satoko actually has a proper jump technique as most Japanese ladies. Meaning not the edges, but the fact that she does not muscle her jumps like most of young Russian ladies, and maintains good speed into jumps, and has beautiful position landings.

Part of that has nothing to do with jumping technique... and no, Satoko does not have as 'proper technique as most japanese ladies'. Too much pre-rotation is very much a big flaw. Her toe picking technique is also far from ideal, she basically has the whole blade on the ice and seems to use it to vault herself up higher, which is not what you should do... her edge jumps are generally way better than her toe jumps though. Still, I don't like Gracie at all, but Satoko is most definitely not 'as good a jumper' as her.

And 'most' of the Russian ladies? Are you counting Evgenia and Elena threefold? Anna P. is far from muscling her jumps, Liza doesn't, Julia doesn't (by now), Maria Sotskova doesn't... looking at the juniors, Polina T. doesn't... you can hardly put out 'muscling through your jumps' as a russian thing.

 

[andromache]

I think Japan Open will offer a bit of a sneak peek on Satoko vs Evgenia but at the same time I'm curious to see which programs would the judges appreciate more this season: Satoko's Planets Suite FS or Evgenia's 9/11 and other world disasters tribute FS. Last season, the biggest difference between them was the PCS with Evgenia receiving the biggest and Satoko receiving the lowest of the top ladies.

I think Satoko's LP this season is much more unique and interesting than Evgenia's....whatever the judges think, I'm not sure how much it will actually impact their scores. Program theme/choreography probably doesn't play as huge as role as reputation, for example.

I think Satoko's PCS may rise slightly, but she may continue to get penalized for "skating small," as others have put it. I'm a big Evgenia fan, but I would like to see her PCS take a minor hit this season because her program this season is, regardless of theme, extremely similar to last season's. (And last season's did it better.)

 

[ioanna]

I think Satoko's LP this season is much more unique and interesting than Evgenia's....whatever the judges think, I'm not sure how much it will actually impact their scores. Program theme/choreography probably doesn't play as huge as role as reputation, for example.

I think Satoko's PCS may rise slightly, but she may continue to get penalized for "skating small," as others have put it. I'm a big Evgenia fan, but I would like to see her PCS take a minor hit this season because her program this season is, regardless of theme, extremely similar to last season's. (And last season's did it better.)

I think we've already gotten a bit of a hint on how the judges have received Satoko's new programs at US Classic. Compared to 2015 US Classic where she competed as the reigning World silver medalist, there were big differences this year.

US Classic 2015
SP: 63.48 (35.60 TES; 27.88 PCS)
FS: 120.16 (65.16 TES; 56.00 PCS)

US Classic 2016
SP: 70.06 (37.53 TES; 32.56 PCS)
FS: 136.66 (70.02 TES; 66.64 PCS)

Her FS last season vs her FS this season got her PCS skyrocketing by 10.64 points this early in the season. And I didn't even like her performance, I thought she could have done a lot better than that. She has a lot of room to improve.

 

[moriel]

Looking at those performances, it just looks like inflated: Satoko got very similar PCs at last worlds.
So chances are other skaters may be getting high PCs as well or it was an event thing.

 

[Warwick360]

I think Satoko's LP this season is much more unique and interesting than Evgenia's....whatever the judges think, I'm not sure how much it will actually impact their scores. Program theme/choreography probably doesn't play as huge as role as reputation, for example.

Completely, agree. I just don't like Evgenia's new program, and not because of the alleged controversy. The noises are just so jarring, right up there with "I'll never let go Jack, I'll never let go" being topped off with My Heart will Go On from last season.

 

[ioanna]

Looking at those performances, it just looks like inflated: Satoko got very similar PCs at last worlds.
So chances are other skaters may be getting high PCs as well or it was an event thing.

Worlds was supposed to be the event of inflated PCS and it was for a lot of skaters who scored +70 in PCS, but not for Satoko. Compared to them, I wouldn't call 66 PCS inflated yet.

 

[andromache]

Worlds was supposed to be the event of inflated PCS and it was for a lot of skaters who scored +70 in PCS, but not for Satoko. Compared to them, I wouldn't call 66 PCS inflated yet.

Satoko received similar PCS at Worlds...it might be possible that we will be starting PCS off at that very high baseline for non-disaster performances.

 

[jenaj]

Worlds was supposed to be the event of inflated PCS and it was for a lot of skaters who scored +70 in PCS, but not for Satoko. Compared to them, I wouldn't call 66 PCS inflated yet.

Both Gracie and Elena got higher PCS for their long programs at Worlds than Satoko. That suggests to me that her score is deflated, not inflated (or that Gracie and Elena's scores are inflated and Satoko's isn't).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Both Gracie and Elena got higher PCS for their long programs at Worlds than Satoko. That suggests to me that her score is deflated, not inflated (or that Gracie and Elena's scores are inflated and Satoko's isn't).

Or that Gracie and Elena made a bigger impact on the judges.

 

[andromache]

PCS at Skate America 2015 LP (rounded to the nearest whole number)
Gracie: 69
Evgenia: 69
Satoko: 64

PCS at 2016 Worlds LP (again rounded)
Gracie: 70
Evgenia: 72
Satoko: 66

All ladies experienced relatively similar inflation over the course of last season, assuming Gracie would've received PCS comparable to Evgenia for a clean performance. Satoko's PCS are rising alongside everyone else's.

 

[ssffww]

Yeah Satoko fell at Skate America but the backstory of that competition was that she hadn't trained enough because she was taking university admission exams.

Can we stop comparing her jumps to other skaters as small as her now? I think everyone agrees her height has little to do with her jumps. At least that's what I hope after sharing my two cents on the previous page of this thread.

I'm sure there's a good reason she fell. I was simply responding to the comment that "we all have no idea what happens to her after a fall in competition," though, because we do. She showed us at Skate America and she handled it just fine.

 

[ioanna]

I'm sure there's a good reason she fell. I was simply responding to the comment that "we all have no idea what happens to her after a fall in competition," though, because we do. She showed us at Skate America and she handled it just fine.

I understand that. Me sharing the backstory of that fall at Skate America was meant to back up your response saying we do know what would happen after a fall - which I agree with.

 

[andromache]

I'm sure there's a good reason she fell. I was simply responding to the comment that "we all have no idea what happens to her after a fall in competition," though, because we do. She showed us at Skate America and she handled it just fine.

Why do posters feel the need to make excuses when a skater falls? Satoko fell because she took university admission exams, Elena fell because she was ill, etc., etc. Even the most consistent skaters fall. Why? Because ice is slippery and no one is perfect. The Kween fell when she was in the shape of her life; there's no need to make excuses. This seems to be much more common for ladies than men. Yuzu and Javi - the best in the world - fall all the time! No one wrings their hands and makes excuses.

 

[ssffww]

I understand that. Me sharing the backstory of that fall at Skate America was meant to back up your response saying we do know what would happen after a fall - which I agree with.[/QUOTE

I appreciate the clarification as I had read your post differently. Thanks!

 

[ssffww]

Why do posters feel the need to make excuses when a skater falls? Satoko fell because she took university admission exams, Elena fell because she was ill, etc., etc. Even the most consistent skaters fall. Why? Because ice is slippery and no one is perfect. The Kween fell when she was in the shape of her life; there's no need to make excuses. This seems to be much more common for ladies than men. Yuzu and Javi - the best in the world - fall all the time! No one wrings their hands and makes excuses.

I don't know. I agree, ice is slippery.

 

[ioanna]

Why do posters feel the need to make excuses when a skater falls? Satoko fell because she took university admission exams, Elena fell because she was ill, etc., etc. Even the most consistent skaters fall. Why? Because ice is slippery and no one is perfect. The Kween fell when she was in the shape of her life; there's no need to make excuses. This seems to be much more common for ladies than men. Yuzu and Javi - the best in the world - fall all the time! No one wrings their hands and makes excuses.

I wasn't making excuses, I was more like hinting that unless there are unfavorable circumstances that she can't control, Satoko is capable of going through a full season without falling.

 

[andromache]

I wasn't making excuses, I was more like hinting that unless there are unfavorable circumstances that she can't control, Satoko is capable of going through a full season without falling.

Instead, it comes off as though you're lowkey bragging that your favorite skater is capable of not falling even though she fell. Even without the exams, she may have fallen anyway. Is she actually capable of going through a full season without falling? Only the future will tell. Unfavorable circumstances or not do not really matter. This is sport and a fall is a fall.