2016-2017 State of Canadian Figure Skating

[4everchan]

i was shocked to find out one spin was invalid as well...

i think he is slow.. but he performed really well and was reaching out to the audience with his big beautiful smile. I think he will have to earn his PCS by keeping skating as clean as he did today... even his GOE. Is that fair ? not really... I would have given him a couple more points.

Is anyone else having a big question mark about Nam's PCS for the SP?

He definitely was slow, and Kurt Browning has backhandedly said that he'd like to see him "back up to senior men speed", but with a clean program the disparity with the 6 point disparity with the top 3 seems excessive. And I note that he was marked down across the board...were the transitions and choreography so relatively deficient?

Any thoughts?

the one skater who has been lowballed this weekend is Gabby. I see her on the podium with her skates.... she is just a few points away from bronze and I feel she deserved to be higher. Honestly, Mihara from Japan (not to be confused with Miyahara) skated a juniorish program, had lower TES than Gabby, and outscored her in PCS....

Also, Gabby : if you are going to do 3t-3t in the long, do it in the short... the only reason to do it in the short would be if you are doing it in the long...

If you haven't seen Gabby's LP : go ahead and watch it... there are hard transitions for many jumps. She is just slowly showing the world how great of an athlete she is. I was incredibly impressed by Alaine at ACI, then by Kaetlyn at Finlandia.... what Gabby did this weekend is just as impressive. WOW... The next person who comes in this thread saying our ladies are weak gets a tomato!

 

[Osmond4gold]

Make that 2 tomatoes, if I hear another person say that these women are being gifted PC's at international events, like Skate Canada. They have worked hard to get to these levels...makes my blood boil.

To say that 'inflation' takes place in competition is one thing, that Canadian women have equally or proportionally benefitted from such inflation is delusional. Case in point Gabby Daleman (who defined transitions at SA), should have won a bronze but was held to a second tier status, finishing 4th.

 

[Mango]

I am gonna agree that Gabby could have been given some more PCS, particularly so in the FS (protocols). The judges appeared not to have cared much for her transitions. It's likely pretty hard for her to swallow that one downgraded jump and one fall were the difference between a fourth and a bronze. The one thing I'd like to see her change is to lessen the pauses in choreography. Just keep moving.

Nam...I've already mentioned what I think of his PCS earlier in this thread so I won't repeat myself.

Let's see where Julianne and Charlie end up. I am not going to be surprised if it's firmly behind Denney/Frazier.

 

[TGee]

i was shocked to find out one spin was invalid as well...

Honestly, Mihara from Japan (not to be confused with Miyahara) skated a juniorish program, had lower TES than Gabby, and outscored her in PCS....

On Nam's spin, I went back and forth between the video and the protocol. He lost a spin because he had 3 packed on after another at the end and appears to have run out of time...

There was supposed to be a change foot camel spin after the sit-spin and before the final spin. He seemed to have come late out of the sit spin which was a bit slow or something, even if he got level 3. He seemed to be improvising, or skipping a couple of steps to get into the camel, but then stopped the camel before the change of leg. Then he went into the final spin and got a level 4. So he either winged it or did the math on losing the spin or 1.0 points per five seconds over music.

And I can think that this issue may have left a negative PCS impression on a number of things due to the lost transition between spins, and the questions that it raises on both choreography and interpretation. So compared to the top 3 that clearly delivered their entire choreography, I am a little more reconciled to the size of the difference on consideration.

My conclusion is that while there is an advantage to pack the spins together in the end as he's been a reliable spinner and the skater has to slow down to do them, 3 together at the end may be an unreasonable risk ...

On Gabby, I agree that her PCS wasn't what it might have been. I am not adoring Mariah Bell's program, can't say why, but it lacks something that Ashley or even Gracie's has that made me want to watch it. But she was clean and skating for a home crowd...

... Mihara does look juniorish. Kurt Browning was saying age appropriate, but if we put up Lipnitskaya at Sochi in the red coat as the iconic example, it's clear that there really are ways to come up with a pro ram of senior sophistication that doesn't have a feeling of pushing development of a girlish teen. But acknowledge that it is a challenge....we've heard the same critique of Elizabet TurSynbaeva last year. And as much as I adore her, I can accept that it had merit, and that see that her team has been truly working to address this.

 

[4everchan]

re Nam's spins

he has a spin Foot change at the beginning of the SP... the last two are at the end... I think it had to do with the number of revolutions, the wobbles or the sit position itself.... some people offered different arguments there... but he doesn't have 3 spins back to back... just two, and it's the sitspin that didn't count.

On Nam's spin, I went back and forth between the video and the protocol. He lost a spin because he had 3 packed on after another at the end and appears to have run out of time...

There was supposed to be a change foot camel spin after the sit-spin and before the final spin. He seemed to have come late out of the sit spin which was a bit slow or something, even if he got level 3. He seemed to be improvising, or skipping a couple of steps to get into the camel, but then stopped the camel before the change of leg. Then he went into the final spin and got a level 4. So he either winged it or did the math on losing the spin or 1.0 points per five seconds over music.

And I can think that this issue may have left a negative PCS impression on a number of things due to the lost transition between spins, and the questions that it raises on both choreography and interpretation. So compared to the top 3 that clearly delivered their entire choreography, I am a little more reconciled to the size of the difference on consideration.

My conclusion is that while there is an advantage to pack the spins together in the end as he's been a reliable spinner and the skater has to slow down to do them, 3 together at the end may be an unreasonable risk ...

On Gabby, I agree that her PCS wasn't what it might have been. I am not adoring Mariah Bell's program, can't say why, but it lacks something that Ashley or even Gracie's has that made me want to watch it. But she was clean and skating for a home crowd...

... Mihara does look juniorish. Kurt Browning was saying age appropriate, but if we put up Lipnitskaya at Sochi in the red coat as the iconic example, it's clear that there really are ways to come up with a pro ram of senior sophistication that doesn't have a feeling of pushing development of a girlish teen. But acknowledge that it is a challenge....we've heard the same critique of Elizabet TurSynbaeva last year. And as much as I adore her, I can accept that it had merit, and that see that her team has been truly working to address this.

 

[TGee]

re Nam's spins

he has a spin Foot change at the beginning of the SP... the last two are at the end... I think it had to do with the number of revolutions, the wobbles or the sit position itself.... some people offered different arguments there... but he doesn't have 3 spins back to back... just two, and it's the sitspin that didn't count.

Your right! That's what I get for trying to read the protocols on a small device.

But the protocols don't quite match the discussion....The FCSP3=Flying Camel Spin was at the top as element #2. But it didn't have a change foot.

It was the second to last spin CCoSP=Change foot combination spin element #7 that got 0.0. It was mainly in the sitting position, but isn't listed as a sit-spin. And the change of foot was ragged. So, something odd there such that the technical callers weren't perhaps able to give him the planned element. And then the GOE is based on what was called. [And I still think that the transition into the last element was incomplete...likely due to the late exit from #7].

 

[Mango]

So Julianne and Charlie are the first Canadian medal winners of the Grand Prix. And they're golden!

Reviewing protocols they got mostly level 4s, and two level 3s. Their PCS was interestingly low. Compared to Grand Prix Final 2015 and Autumn Classic International 2016 they were two points back despite no major errors. Not sure what that means. In three weeks the judges decided they didn't like this program?

Felicitations Julianne et Charlie! :thumbsup:

Medals count
8 gold, 7 silvers, 4 bronze = 19 medals in total

 

[mirai4life]

The Canadian girls have so much scoring potential. I'm talking about the top 3 canadians.
If they can get it together, i don't see how they won't be on every podium,

 

[4everchan]

sorry... i said it wrong... as i read protocols on a small screen too LOL... you are right he did flying camel... no change foot as first spin yup.. change foot combo that got nixed. in any case.... the really good thing about his program was the quality of the jumps. nothing scary or tilted.. well controlled.. AND HIS SMILE!!! I have always liked Nam but this was Nam the showman... adored it.

Your right! That's what I get for trying to read the protocols on a small device.

But the protocols don't quite match the discussion....The FCSP3=Flying Camel Spin was at the top as element #2. But it didn't have a change foot.

It was the second to last spin CCoSP=Change foot combination spin element #7 that got 0.0. It was mainly in the sitting position, but isn't listed as a sit-spin. And the change of foot was ragged. So, something odd there such that the technical callers weren't perhaps able to give him the planned element. And then the GOE is based on what was called. [And I still think that the transition into the last element was incomplete...likely due to the late exit from #7].

 

[4everchan]

they will be when they are cheated on PCS like Gabby was in both her programs today... the small difference it made cost Gabby the bronze today, which she deserved... of course, she left some points on the ice in the SP... but her program was mature and full of hard transitions... judges didn't reward her for that.

The Canadian girls have so much scoring potential. I'm talking about the top 3 canadians.
If they can get it together, i don't see how they won't be on every podium,

 

[mirai4life]

they will be when they are cheated on PCS like Gabby was in both her programs today... the small difference it made cost Gabby the bronze today, which she deserved... of course, she left some points on the ice in the SP... but her program was mature and full of hard transitions... judges didn't reward her for that.

tbh she made some costly mistakes and even then her scores are pretty big.
Imagine back to back clean programs.

 

[4everchan]

well, as i have been saying 3t-3t in the sp

tbh she made some costly mistakes and even then her scores are pretty big.
Imagine back to back clean programs.

 

[mirai4life]

well, as i have been saying 3t-3t in the sp

her 3t-3t is heaven and way more reliable than her 3f-3t.

 

[4everchan]

she does 3LZ-3T.. but yeah.. her 3t-3t is the best in the world right now ... at least i say so

her 3t-3t is heaven and way more reliable than her 3f-3t.

 

[TangoTraumatica]

Her 3t-3t is out of this world.

I wonder if she's doing the 3lz-3t because she hopes to improve it enough to have BOTH the 3lz-3t and 3t-3t in the long next year. Like maybe she's just using it in the short so that she can improve its quality and consistency on competition ice and just swallowing the loss of points for the sake of improvement.

 

[4everchan]

Her 3t-3t is out of this world.

I wonder if she's doing the 3lz-3t because she hopes to improve it enough to have BOTH the 3lz-3t and 3t-3t in the long next year. Like maybe she's just using it in the short so that she can improve its quality and consistency on competition ice and just swallowing the loss of points for the sake of improvement.

well she cannot have 3Lz-3t and 3t-3t in the long.. that would zayak...

She wants the 3Lz-3T in the short so she can have the 3F as the solo jump... it raises her BV by 1 point.... That way, it also brings her BV to the Maximum of all girls who don't do 3A... so I can understand why she would want that... However, I think it's a bad move for her. I understand that some judges seem to reward girls who do the harder combos more than the girls doing 3t-3t... so I sort of guess her reasoning but there was a reason why she had stopped doing the 3Lz-3T in the short, and brought her beautiful 3t-3t... and IMHO, that was the right move back then, helped her do well at WC and would be a smart move again this year... BUT, GP season is perfect to try new layouts... so why not...

 

[TGee]

tbh she made some costly mistakes and even then her scores are pretty big.
Imagine back to back clean programs.

While there is some link between PCS and TES, it's hard to make a case that a fall on a jump means that she didn't meet the criteria for transitions, for example. If she got all 4, then that mark should be high and it isn't. COP hasn't gone as far as many of us had hoped in terms of separating PCS and TES, it's not like the 6.0 days....

The thing that I like in principle is that SS and Transitions are scored on a set of criteria. And those "costly mistakes" did not mean that she missed a number of transitions, quite the opposite. So, one can take a look and assess how many of the 4 categories of transitions she actually demonstrated in comparison to the women on the podium and ask ....uhm, why not more on this mark if she had more transitions with better variety than some....

And I'd like to compare that to the PCS scoring for the men in which all three on the podium got full marks for PCS even when there what might have otherwise been "costly mistakes"....

So on balance my analysis raises the same question.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Editing to add, Ashley Wagner, self-acknowledged "Queen of no transitions" scored 8.43 on transitions in her FS, and Gabby 7.32. Go figure..

https://twitter.com/AshWagner2010/status/790243037792337920

 

[4everchan]

Nam's spins counted today and so did all his jumps.. clean, no edge calls, no UR... very good NAM!!!!

 

[TangoTraumatica]

well she cannot have 3Lz-3t and 3t-3t in the long.. that would zayak...

She wants the 3Lz-3T in the short so she can have the 3F as the solo jump... it raises her BV by 1 point.... That way, it also brings her BV to the Maximum of all girls who don't do 3A... so I can understand why she would want that... However, I think it's a bad move for her. I understand that some judges seem to reward girls who do the harder combos more than the girls doing 3t-3t... so I sort of guess her reasoning but there was a reason why she had stopped doing the 3Lz-3T in the short, and brought her beautiful 3t-3t... and IMHO, that was the right move back then, helped her do well at WC and would be a smart move again this year... BUT, GP season is perfect to try new layouts... so why not...

I guess I'm confused about how the Zayak rule works! I was thinking about Mai Mihara's two 3lz-3t combos in her long this weekend, but I see now how that's different from having a total of three 3Ts in the program. Thanks for the clarification

Your reasoning makes a lot of sense, and I agree with you that the 3T-3T was the better combo for her. I hope that you're right that she's using the GP to test the strength of her 3lz-3t and will move back to the 3t-3t for worlds this year.

 

[TGee]

Not sure folks have this quite right. The issue is that she cannot do more than two 3Ts, with at least one in combination. She can do up to three combination jumps, with at least one having 3 jumps, but she would need to have other jumps as the second and third jumps such as a loop.

Zayak rule, referred in ISU documents as "Repetitions".... ISU S&P/ID Regulations 2016

http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf

p.105

Jump Combinations and Jump Sequences
A jump combination may consist of the same or another single, double, triple orquadruple jump. There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequencesin the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps,the other two up to two (2) jumps.

Repetitions:Any double jump (including double Axel) cannot be included more than twice intotal in a Single’s Free Program (as a Solo Jump or a part of Combination /Sequence). Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be executedtwice. If at least one of these executions is in a jump combination or a jumpsequence, both executions are evaluated in a regular way. If both executions areas solo jumps, the second of these solo jumps will receive 70% of its original BaseValue. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as twodifferent jumps. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.Extra jumps and jump elements:If an extra jump(s) is executed only the individual jump which is not according tothe requirements will have no value. The jumps are considered in the order ofexecution