2016 Skate Canada Men's LP

[TGee]

https://twitter.com/3flip3loop/status/792542443786960896

Thanks for saying it again.....

The level of instant suspicion on this thread is instantly taking me back....especially when the broadcasters [at least in Canada] said there was a question about the 2Lz call by the tech panel when Grant was in the KnC and Kevin Reynolds was waiting to skate....

Known issue....reconsideration and a long time to get protocols confirmed....sounds like fairness to me. . .

 

[4everchan]

and meanwhile, the official forgot to make invalid Kevin's 2Lo...

he has a quad toe combo... than he has to have a quad salchow combo right? he fell, got REP...

then 2 more combos? or am I misunderstanding the rules...

 

[Sydney Rose]

No, I think SA refused both Javi and Yuzuru or they didn't invite them.

I can't imagine SA ever refusing Hanyu. Per Orser, it was Hanyu's fans who filled up half the seats at SC. If he had been at SA, I don't think two-thirds of the seats would have been empty. Even though both Mao and Shoma were there, their combined presence was not enough to make a real difference in turnout.

Which makes me wonder: Is it Japanese fans who are "holding up skating" or is it the fans of Hanyu? If it's the latter, FS is really going to be in trouble when that kid retires from competitive skating.

 

[da96103]

and meanwhile, the official forgot to make invalid Kevin's 2Lo...

he has a quad toe combo... than he has to have a quad salchow combo right? he fell, got REP...

then 2 more combos? or am I misunderstanding the rules...

You are right.

There's already 3 combo passes before Element no. 9 3F +2Lo

Element 2 4T + 3T
Element 3 4S + REP
Element 8 3Lz + 2T
Element 9 3F + 2Lo (should be scored as 3F only)

 

[da96103]

Well to be fair, he is the original quad king. :cool14:

Americans would beg to differ. That would be Goebel.

 

[4everchan]

well , at least it doesn't change rankings.

You are right.

There's already 3 combo passes before Element no. 9 3F +2Lo

Element 2 4T + 3T
Element 3 4S + REP
Element 8 3Lz + 2T
Element 9 3F + 2Lo (should be scored as 3F only)

 

[krispy]

You are right.

There's already 3 combo passes before Element no. 9 3F +2Lo

Element 2 4T + 3T
Element 3 4S + REP
Element 8 3Lz + 2T
Element 9 3F + 2Lo (should be scored as 3F only)

Actually wouldn't the whole element be invalid since its the 4th combo? The tech panel here is really bad

 

[cheerknithanson]

Spoke too soon there!

I know. I was preparing myself.

 

[da96103]

https://twitter.com/3flip3loop/status/792542443786960896

I was right after all. Indeed there was a dispute.

I am glad skaters (and coaches) can look through the protocol and appeal for gross mistakes like identify a 3Lz as a 2Lz.

 

[4everchan]

Actually wouldn't the whole element be invalid since its the 4th combo? The tech panel here is really bad

i don't think so... the 3Flip is valid on its own... the rule now says that only what is invalid is not counted. so the 2loop

 

[da96103]

Actually wouldn't the whole element be invalid since its the 4th combo? The tech panel here is really bad

They have made the invalid elements rule less harsh this season. Only the invalid jump is taken out of a combo, the other jump(s) still contribute towards BV and GOE.

 

[TGee]

You are right.

There's already 3 combo passes before Element no. 9 3F +2Lo

Element 2 4T + 3T
Element 3 4S + REP
Element 8 3Lz + 2T
Element 9 3F + 2Lo (should be scored as 3F only)

Protocol looks fine by my calculation...Here's the logic and the regs page...

I think that the last combo counted because the second element on element 3 was a REP, and the element therefore did not count on the second combo...

Element 3 4S+REP was scored only against the 4S, for which he got 70% of the BV....because it was a repeat jump not in a combo..

Kevin has previously show himself to be amazing at jump math on the fly during competition, and adding jumps to make up missed ones in the latter part of the program is precedented for him....His FS in the team event at Sochi really stood out for that.

see p 105 of this year's updated ISU regulations...

http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf

Remarks

For all singles Free Programs the following will apply:
Individual JumpsIndividual jumps can contain any number of revolutions.

Jump Combinations and Jump SequencesA jump combination may consist of the same or another single, double, triple orquadruple jump. There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequencesin the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps,the other two up to two (2) jumps.

Repetitions:Any double jump (including double Axel) cannot be included more than twice intotal in a Single’s Free Program (as a Solo Jump or a part of Combination /Sequence). Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be executedtwice. If at least one of these executions is in a jump combination or a jumpsequence, both executions are evaluated in a regular way. If both executions areas solo jumps, the second of these solo jumps will receive 70% of its original BaseValue. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as twodifferent jumps. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.

Extra jumps and jump elements:If an extra jump(s) is executed only the individual jump which is not according tothe requirements will have no value. The jumps are considered in the order ofexecution.

 

[da96103]

well , at least it doesn't change rankings.

I do hope it is a innocent mistake. Though I would have assumed that the computer would already have an algorithm to determine what would be valid or not (no matter how complicated the rules and ammendments are). I usually take for granted that the published protocol would not have mistakes.

It is a surprise to see the 2Lo was allowed to be counted by the computer. I just hope that each skater has a team that is as eagle-sharp-eyed as you. (especially when the points are very close together). Also hopefully no National Federation would try to cheat by counting elements which are invalid when events are held in their country)

 

[begin]

Upon reading the protocols I still have Chan beating Hanyu but barely (and only due to Yuzu's poor SP performance). The most glaring overscoring were the generous GOE for Patrick's 4T+3T and 3A imo.

 

[4everchan]

apparently we are wrong look at Tgee's explanation above

I do hope it is a innocent mistake. Though I would have assumed that the computer would already have an algorithm to determine what would be valid or not (no matter how complicated the rules and ammendments are). I usually take for granted that the published protocol would not have mistakes.

It is a surprise to see the 2Lo was allowed to be counted by the computer. I just hope that each skater has a team that is as eagle-sharp-eyed as you. (especially when the points are very close together). Also hopefully no National Federation would try to cheat by counting elements which are invalid when events are held in their country)

 

[TGee]

I do hope it is a innocent mistake. Though I would have assumed that the computer would already have an algorithm to determine what would be valid or not (no matter how complicated the rules and ammendments are). I usually take for granted that the published protocol would not have mistakes.

It is a surprise to see the 2Lo was allowed to be counted by the computer. I just hope that each skater has a team that is as eagle-sharp-eyed as you. (especially when the points are very close together). Also hopefully no National Federation would try to cheat by counting elements which are invalid when events are held in their country)

I think that the computer would catch it if the loop were invalid...but I don't think that it is....Look again at the BV on the 4S+REP ...he only got the BV for 70% of a 4S so no combo considered there....

 

[4everchan]

Upon reading the protocols I still have Chan beating Hanyu but barely (and only due to Yuzu's poor SP performance). The most glaring overscoring were the generous GOE for Patrick's 4T+3T and 3A imo.

i think his first two jumping passes were very good... air position, distance and height. Textbook jumps. Why not + GOE? Judges all agreed here...

 

[da96103]

Protocol looks fine by my calculation...Here's the logic and the regs page...

I think that the last combo counted because the second element on element 3 was a REP, and the element therefore did not count on the second combo...

Element 3 4S+REP was scored only against the 4S, for which he got 70% of the BV....because it was a repeat jump not in a combo..

Kevin has previously show himself to be amazing at jump math on the fly during competition, and adding jumps to make up missed ones in the latter part of the program is precedented for him....His FS in the team event at Sochi really stood out for that.

see p 105 of this year's updated ISU regulations...

http://static.isu.org/media/1003/20...ce-and-technical-rules-sandp-and-id_final.pdf

Remarks

For all singles Free Programs the following will apply:
Individual JumpsIndividual jumps can contain any number of revolutions.

Jump Combinations and Jump SequencesA jump combination may consist of the same or another single, double, triple orquadruple jump. There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequencesin the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps,the other two up to two (2) jumps.

Repetitions:Any double jump (including double Axel) cannot be included more than twice intotal in a Single’s Free Program (as a Solo Jump or a part of Combination /Sequence). Of all the triple and quadruple jumps only two (2) can be executedtwice. If at least one of these executions is in a jump combination or a jumpsequence, both executions are evaluated in a regular way. If both executions areas solo jumps, the second of these solo jumps will receive 70% of its original BaseValue. Triple and quadruple jumps with the same name will be considered as twodifferent jumps. No triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.

Extra jumps and jump elements:If an extra jump(s) is executed only the individual jump which is not according tothe requirements will have no value. The jumps are considered in the order ofexecution.

I see. So if both jumps of the same jump are solo jumps. The second jump gets 70% BV but does not use up a combo jumping pass.

So theoretically a skater can do a program like this:

4T
4T 70%
4S
4S 70%
3A + 3T
3Lz + 2T
3F + 1Lo + 3S
3Lo

 

[da96103]

apparently we are wrong look at Tgee's explanation above

Yes I just read. Thanks Tgee for these small details.

 

[rain]

Upon reading the protocols I still have Chan beating Hanyu but barely (and only due to Yuzu's poor SP performance). The most glaring overscoring were the generous GOE for Patrick's 4T+3T and 3A imo.

That 4t+3t in particular were spectacular. It really doesn't get much more textbook than that. The 3a, which he does sometimes struggle on, was, in fact, gorgeous here. If you want to choose some of his jumps to pick on, these were a bad choice.