State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[kwanatic]

As someone who is fairly active on social media, I saw an incredible influx of posts and tweets from black men and women about how happy and how proud they were to see someone who looked like them, not just on the medal stand, but at the very top of it. There were numerous posts from black men and women describing how the young ones in the family had stars in their eyes and big grins on their faces from seeing someone that looked like them excelling on television because to them, that meant that they could do it too. The same thing happened with Laurie Hernandez and Latin-Americans, and the same thing happened when Ms. Andrews's "Whip My Hair" routine went viral. I remember seeing so many people (black men and women included) say comment positively and encouragingly. I thought all of those were amazing posts to see and read, and took them as positives. So think about what that might mean if Ms. Andrews's were to ever make it to the top of the U.S. senior podium, won't you? As for your questions, I think lyndichee, Osmond4Gold, and andromache did a great job briefly providing answers.

Very well stated.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In the long history of US skating there has only been one African-American skater who had any kind of success at the elite level: Debbie Thomas. She was a two-time national champ, the 1986 World Champ (3-time World medalist) and the 1988 Olympic bronze medalist. But this was all the way back in the 1980s.

Surya Bonaly is an African-American who was very successful in the sport (although she wasn't a US citizen until 2004).

 

[SarahSynchro]

.... maybe we should stop giving them ideas.

Or maybe we should just create the drinking game and be done with it.


And as a reminder... you don't have to drink liquor to enjoy drinking games. Take a shot of a milkshake instead or do it as a "cookie game" and eat a cookie each time, rather than having a drink. Drinking game is just a name... you can consume whatever you want.

I tried to create a drinking game here one time, it was: "take a shot every time a skater is wearing Edeas".

.... three hundred people died of alcohol consumption that night. Now I'm going to jail.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I tried to create a drinking game here one time, it was: "take a shot every time a skater is wearing Edeas".

.... three hundred people died of alcohol consumption that night. Now I'm going to jail.

Back in my college days, we use to play a drinking game while watching the Smurfs. Every time the word 'Smurf' was used, a sip was taken. If 'Papa Smurf' was said, it meant 2 sips. As it happened, the episode we watch was one where 'Papa Smurf' went missing and a rescue team was tasked with his retrieval.

Oh my, ...no wonder the 80's are a bit of a blur.

 

[FlattFan]

We don't even have an elite skater like Debbie Thomas for the past 10 years, white or asian.
Just like we never had a white or asian gymnast who is as dominant as Simone Biles ever. I'm not sure what people are trying to say. Elite athletes are rare. Simple as that.

Look at Korea, they are all Koreans. How many more years until some Korean girl comes up in the rank and be as successful as Yuna. Surely it's not about race there.

 

[Moxiejan]

Surya Bonaly is an African-American who was very successful in the sport (although she wasn't a US citizen until 2004).

Bonaly was born in France and spent her entire Olympic-eligible career representing France, which through its history has been more much accepting of nonwhites in all facets of society than the U.S. It's bizarre to offer her (who did not become a U.S. citizen until she was 31) as an example of an "African-American" success story; she never had any instance of having to rise from within the U.S. qualifying system. And did not have parents/grandparents with a heritage of dealing with generations of racial discrimination in the U.S.

I don't even know why we would call her "African-American"; French-American seems more accurate. Or American of color, if we really want to describe her in a way that emphasizes her pigmentation.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Bonaly was born in France and spent her entire Olympic-eligible career representing France, which through its history has been more much accepting of nonwhites in all facets of society than the U.S. It's bizarre to offer her (who did not become a U.S. citizen until she was 31) as an example of an "African-American" success story; she never had any instance of having to rise from within the U.S. qualifying system. And did not have parents/grandparents with a heritage of dealing with generations of racial discrimination in the U.S.

I don't even know why we would call her "African-American"; French-American seems more accurate. Or American of color, if we really want to describe her in a way that emphasizes her pigmentation.

Obviously I was joking by implying Surya achieved her success while American. However, she is no less African American than Debbie Thomas now. There are many first-generation African Americans who don't have a heritage of racial discrimination in the US, so that is an interesting distinction to require for using that term.

 

[Moxiejan]

Obviously I was joking by implying Surya achieved her success while American. However, she is no less African American than Debbie Thomas now. There are many first-generation African Americans who don't have a heritage of racial discrimination in the US, so that is an interesting distinction to require for using that term.

For starters, her name is Debi, not Debbie.
No, I am not saying that a history of racial discrimination is required to use the term "African-American"; you have completely missed my point. Which is: It is bizarre to use that term to describe a woman who was born in France to French parents, who was raised in France, and who became an American as adult. Really, by definition "first-generation" Americans (of any race) do not have parents/grandparents who are U.S. citizens, so NONE of them would have a heritage of discrimination in the U.S.

When Debi was coming into prominence, I was a newspaper reporter who covered many Nationals and heard a lot of talk, behind the scenes and at press conferences. And she was discussed in completely different ways than were "traditional princesses" like Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Even by Dick Button, who described Debi's musical style as "street smart"; in reality, she was just as "balletic" and "graceful" as they were. No, I am not calling Uncle Dick racist. I am saying that the competitive culture of figure skating in the U.S. was not then (or now) equivalent to what Bonaly would have experienced in France.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

No, I am not saying that a history of racial discrimination is required to use the term "African-American"; you have completely missed my point. Which is: It is bizarre to use that term to describe a woman who was born in France to French parents, who was raised in France, and who became an American as adult. Really, by definition "first-generation" Americans (of any race) do not have parents/grandparents who are U.S. citizens, so NONE of them would have a heritage of discrimination in the U.S.

When Debi was coming into prominence, I was a newspaper reporter who covered many Nationals and heard a lot of talk, behind the scenes and at press conferences. And she was discussed in completely different ways than were "traditional princesses" like Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Even by Dick Button, who described Debi's musical style as "street smart"; in reality, she was just as "balletic" and "graceful" as they were. No, I am not calling Uncle Dick racist. I am saying that the competitive culture of figure skating in the U.S. was not then (or now) equivalent to what Bonaly would have experienced in France.

My understanding was that the "African" part of "African American" referred to the person's African heritage, not having "a heritage of discrimination in the U.S." Someone can be Asian American being born in the US, in Hong Kong, or even Brazil if they are US citizens and have Asian heritage (and they want to be called "Asian American"). It is not easy to get citizenship in the US and to immerse yourself in the culture, so denying Surya's heritage or Americanness is a bit troubling.

I recall that comment by Dick Button and cringe when I rewatch it now. I disagree that Surya had it any easier than Debi, though. Yes, France does not have the same history of racial discrimination so, probably in her daily interactions in her home country, she had it fine. However, Surya was also panned by people in her federation for looking too "athletic" (among other racially-tinged criticisms).

 

[mrrice]

What I hope for Starr, is that she doesn't let the weight of an entire race of people get to her. She will hopefully embrace the fact that she'll be an inspiration to many young girls, regardless of color, that they can achieve their dreams. I remember Tonya Harding receiving a lot of attention and flack for not being rich and living in a trailer in Oregon. The Williams Sister's were not the first Black Women to win big Tennis Tournaments. That honor belongs to Althea Gibson, who won back to back Wimbledon Titles in 1957 and 1958. I think it was a bigger deal that they were from Compton Ca. which is not a wealthy city and isn't known for producing tennis players.

My problem with Surya's skating is that she skated like a gymnast. I never saw her in competition but on video, it was clear that her edges were shallow and that her transitions were minimal. I remember a program where she did a chasse' into a jump and I thought, " I wonder if she was ever a gymnast " Then, she did a laid out back flip and I had my answer. In Surya's defense, if there was one thing she rarely did.....It was fall. She had serious "Cat Feet" As a dancer, my biggest problem with Surya was that she didn't wear tights.......:eeking: I'm just kidding.

 

[FlattFan]

I recall that comment by Dick Button and cringe when I rewatch it now. I disagree that Surya had it any easier than Debi, though. Yes, France does not have the same history of racial discrimination so, probably in her daily interactions in her home country, she had it fine. However, Surya was also panned by people in her federation for looking too "athletic" (among other racially-tinged criticisms).

Surya is skating like a hockey dude most of the time. No knocking on her background. Debi definitely had it easier than most of the girls then and now. She has line to die for. A complete package. Who had anything bad to say about her?
If Gracie/Mirai grow several heads, gets into Stanford school of engineering, wins a world championship and an Olympics medal, then we have a Debi. Right now, we have threads telling them they are a waste of space and should just quit. How is their struggle any better or worse than Debi's struggle?

 

[Moxiejan]

My understanding was that the "African" part of "African American" referred to the person's African heritage, not having "a heritage of discrimination in the U.S." Someone can be Asian American being born in the US, in Hong Kong, or even Brazil if they are US citizens and have Asian heritage (and they want to be called "Asian American"). It is not easy to get citizenship in the US and to immerse yourself in the culture, so denying Surya's heritage or Americanness is a bit troubling.

I did not deny Surya's "Americanness"; I said that it would be more accurate to describe her as French-American or as an American of color (if we insist on taking note of her pigmentation). Surya (raised by an adoptive mother who is Caucasian) was born in France to a woman who was from the French island of Reunion, where residents are a mix of French, Creole and African heritage.

And, no, I did not say that the "African" part of "African American" refers to "a heritage of discrimination in the U.S."
I said that Surya, whose upbringing and Olympic-eligible career took place in a country (France) that has been more racially accepting than many, would not be equivalent to Debi Thomas in terms of being an example of an African-American skater who rose to prominence within the U.S. system. (Really, the biracial Tai Babilonia would be closer.)

In Debi's case, the "talk" I overheard off the record (I'm not going to attach it to long-ago names) made reference to such stereotypes as having her athletic ability attributed more to being "racially built" for jumping than to her own hard work; to her "background" making her not as "coachable" and "disciplined" as others; to the need for her to appear "more mainstream" with conservative music and costumes (the unitard was very controversial).

As for Starr Andrews: I hope she has a fabulous career, on her own terms. Without any of the above chatter.

 

[kwanatic]

I definitely wouldn't count Surya in my point simply because I was referring to US and Surya is from and competed for France. That makes her a non-factor when it comes to the lack of diversity in US skating.

Again, my fingers are crossed to see Starr do well. I noticed that there were hardly any promising looking US skaters (of any color) on the JGP this season. There's talent but there aren't any current juniors who I'm expecting to see make the jump to seniors and be a factor. There are a number from Russia (Tsurskaya, Gubanova) and Japan (Honda, Kihira)...but none from the US.

With Russia and Japan there are several different prospects who I imagine will be factors after Pyeongchang or even as early as next season. I'm fairly certain Ashley will hang up her skates soon after her next Olympics and (at this rate) I wouldn't be surprised if Gracie does too. So who fills those spots on the world team? Ashley and Gracie combined have kept the US with 3 spots for the last several seasons but if one or both of them leave, that could easily change. There are a number of fresh and talented girls with potential (Tyler Pierce, Karen Chen, Vivian Le) but none of them has made any kind of waves internationally.

Once the current leaders of the group retire we could see another "reset" like we had after 2007 if some of the younger/waiting in the wings skaters don't step up.

 

[R.D.]

With Russia and Japan there are several different prospects who I imagine will be factors after Pyeongchang or even as early as next season. I'm fairly certain Ashley will hang up her skates soon after her next Olympics and (at this rate) I wouldn't be surprised if Gracie does too. So who fills those spots on the world team? Ashley and Gracie combined have kept the US with 3 spots for the last several seasons but if one or both of them leave, that could easily change. There are a number of fresh and talented girls with potential (Tyler Pierce, Karen Chen, Vivian Le) but none of them has made any kind of waves internationally.

Once the current leaders of the group retire we could see another "reset" like we had after 2007 if some of the younger/waiting in the wings skaters don't step up.

That's really the million dollar question - what will happen post 2018. I can easily see another prolonged drought occurring as I do not really see anyone rearing to take Wagner/Gold on at the top of the US heap. Everyone else is ~10th at Worlds at their best. That said, you never know and perhaps someone will step up and/or make a splash. However, even if that were to happen, the US Hype Machine(TM) could very well derail them before they even get off the ground...

I think Wagner will almost certainly be done post 2018 and I'm now willing to bet the same for Gold as well (assuming she makes it that far). Even Edmunds looks ready to move on, injuries aside. I'm not sure what Nagasu's intentions are, she may be the remaining wildcard. But I wouldn't be surprised to see her go as well. We could definitely end up having a reboot like 2008 come 2019.

But that's still 2 years away. What's going to happen now though? Can Gold bounce back? What will become of Wagner? Anyone else gonna step up (consistently)? Stay tuned

 

[topaz emerald]

Bonaly was born in France and spent her entire Olympic-eligible career representing France, which through its history has been more much accepting of nonwhites in all facets of society than the U.S. It's bizarre to offer her (who did not become a U.S. citizen until she was 31) as an example of an "African-American" success story; she never had any instance of having to rise from within the U.S. qualifying system. And did not have parents/grandparents with a heritage of dealing with generations of racial discrimination in the U.S.

I don't even know why we would call her "African-American"; French-American seems more accurate. Or American of color, if we really want to describe her in a way that emphasizes her pigmentation.

The way the American media view race and nationalism depends on skin color. For example, when tara lipinski beat Michelle kwan at the olympics I think there was a front page cover of Tara on Time magazine that said Mk is defeated by American Tara lipinski.

 

[mrrice]

The way the American media view race and nationalism depends on skin color. For example, when tara lipinski beat Michelle kwan at the olympics I think there was a front page cover of Tara on Time magazine that said Mk is defeated by American Tara lipinski.

This, unfortunately, is quite true and it still happens to this day. Being black, When I fill out forms, I get weird looks when I write Germany as my place of birth. I used to say......Haven't you seen Milli Vanilli?? Then I'd crack up laughing... They were never amused..:disapp:

 

[TGee]

When Debi was coming into prominence, I was a newspaper reporter who covered many Nationals and heard a lot of talk, behind the scenes and at press conferences. And she was discussed in completely different ways than were "traditional princesses" like Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Even by Dick Button, who described Debi's musical style as "street smart"; in reality, she was just as "balletic" and "graceful" as they were. No, I am not calling Uncle Dick racist. I am saying that the competitive culture of figure skating in the U.S. was not then (or now) equivalent to what Bonaly would have experienced in France.

Dropping a line in, while acknowledging that Canada could do better in this as well. . . (But among individual sports, track and field is so dominant among the Caribbean and African communities here...the numbers of kids of African descent in CanSkate basic skating as compared to the run, jump, and throw programs run by Athletics Canada are starkly disparate...)

But speaking as someone who lived for a time in the US, I'm sincerely wondering if the skating princess ideal that seems deeply ingrained in US ideas about skating, is the major barrier for young skaters of African descent...

Great balletic and other dance skills, as well as fluid movement and great extension may be helpful to the princess image, but they are totally different things in my view.

While it would certainly be possible for an American women skater of African descent to choose the princess style and carry it off, my question to the group is "Why should she be obliged to conform to that ideal?"

 

[mrrice]

From TGee, While it would certainly be possible for an American women skater of African descent to choose the princess style and carry it off, my question to the group is "Why should she be obliged to conform to that ideal?"

Exactly.....Maybe Starr should skate to "I'm Every Woman." There are 2 very good versions of that song. Whitney Houston and Chaka Khan both had hits with it.

 

[andromache]

USFS needs to send some novices/juniors to Brian Orser. Preferably before 2018.

 

[SarahSynchro]

As a dancer, my biggest problem with Surya was that she didn't wear tights.......:eeking: I'm just kidding.

I always found it interesting that Surya didn't wear tights; I imagine it would be frustrating as a black person to have tights that are marketed as "skin colored" that are only really "skin colored" for certain races? Either way, it's noticeable if you don't wear tights at all, or if you wear beige tights and have darker skin.

Is this still an issue today, or are there darker coloured tights for those who don't have the beige/suntan toned skin? I'm trying to remember if Vanessa James and Mae Berenice choose to wear tights... Photos I've googled of Vanessa appear to have her wearing dark brown tights, as the colour doesn't quite look like skin.