2016-2017 State of Canadian Figure Skating

[4everchan]

I took note of a comment by Tracy Wilson during Skate Canada coverage. . .

The host (Rod Black?) was really pressing on how unfortunate it was that I/M were not delivering clean skates, and drilling on Lubov's jumps....

Tracy finally said something along the lines that Lubov has such lovely jumps that it's really to bad that THEY can't get it together so that she can consistently do them in competition.

I'd posited earlier in this thread that problems in SBS jumps are a pairs issue, as they need to match timing, not just something to attribute to one member of the pair....

Sounds like Tracy was try to put that out there...

And there was a good deal of comment on The Rostelecom Cup pairs thread about how Marchei and Hotarek's SBS jumps were not synched at all on the take off and rotations but only on the landing. Folks were surprised that there was not any downgrading of GOE for a visible lack of simultaneity.....

Wonder if the effort and risk in retraining jumps to match is sufficiently rewarded....

lubov is young and had a great time on the junior circuit... It is impossible to believe that she doesn't master the 3S and the 3T... I heard the same comment from Tracy. I think it's a "in competition" issue with her. Last year at worlds, she did pretty well.... i think she only popped one right? So... go for it Lubov... you can do it!

 

[TGee]

lubov is young and had a great time on the junior circuit... It is impossible to believe that she doesn't master the 3S and the 3T... I heard the same comment from Tracy. I think it's a "in competition" issue with her. Last year at worlds, she did pretty well.... i think she only popped one right? So... go for it Lubov... you can do it!

Diagree that this is Lubov's issue....was taking from Tracy that is an issue of their not being able to do it together in competition...

The issue is that the SBS jumps need to be synched (in theory although M H weren't

This means that when a new team comes together they need to adjust the relative timing or the takeoff rotations and landings so that they happen at the same time.

Lubov has the fast rotations that a pairs girl needs for the throw jumps...consider that she can rotate a quad....

Dylan is, based on what Mango shared,a solid triple jump guy on his own, but may not be up to her rotational speed.

What I seem to notice is that, with adrenaline of competition, Lubov is looking to see where Dylan is in his preparation and seems to be hesitating or delaying her takeoff and this, unsurprisingly is putting her jumps at risk.

Since I don't have a clip of the SBS jumps of M H. I offer instead this clip of SBS triple axels by Nam and Kevin from High Performance Camp. It's fairly obvious that Nam takes off later and rotates later and faster, but they land simultaneously. I'm wondering if they developed this for exhibition....

https://mobile.twitter.com/SkateTSN/status/771754045300146176

In any event, think about how difficult it would be for Nam and Kevin to adjust their jump technique to be fully in sync....

And so the concern that Marchei and Hotarek were not penalized for only syncing the landing becomes compelling for me....

Why should Lubov and Dylan keep risking and trying to get it right when one third syncing gets full GOE?

 

[4everchan]

I didn't say it was a lubov issue but said it is a "in competition" issue, slight but important difference

i think that some people may see it as a lubov issue since

1) dylan and kristen were stable
2) she is the one who pops the jumps in competition.


I know what you are referring to as being a timing/synchro issue... fine but then, it would be better that she just goes for the jump than popping them no? Especially since other teams are not getting penalized...

Seriously, they would lose less points like that. However, I appreciate their effort to develop true synchronicity. It is admirable. You can see how Meagan and Eric have also had to adjust their technique Maybe Lubov needs a leg wrap

Diagree that this is Lubov's issue....was taking from Tracy that is an issue of their not being able to do it together in competition...

The issue is that the SBS jumps need to be synched (in theory although M H weren't

This means that when a new team comes together they need to adjust the relative timing or the takeoff rotations and landings so that they happen at the same time.

Lubov has the fast rotations that a pairs girl needs for the throw jumps...consider that she can rotate a quad....

Dylan is, based on what Mango shared,a solid triple jump guy on his own, but may not be up to her rotational speed.

What I seem to notice is that, with adrenaline of competition, Lubov is looking to see where Dylan is in his preparation and seems to be hesitating or delaying her takeoff and this, unsurprisingly is putting her jumps at risk.

Since I don't have a clip of the SBS jumps of M H. I offer instead this clip of SBS triple axels by Nam and Kevin from High Performance Camp. It's fairly obvious that Nam takes off later and rotates later and faster, but they land simultaneously. I'm wondering if they developed this for exhibition....

https://mobile.twitter.com/SkateTSN/status/771754045300146176

In any event, think about how difficult it would be for Nam and Kevin to adjust their jump technique to be fully in sync....

And so the concern that Marchei and Hotarek were not penalized for only syncing the landing becomes compelling for me....

Why should Lubov and Dylan keep risking and trying to get it right when one third syncing gets full GOE?

Adding : look at Mervin? he doesn't seem he can land a thing anymore... what's going on? he was so stable before??

I think that's why people are focusing on one skater, not both... when SBS are missed... everyone was mentioning Charlie was having issues with the jumps this week... Julianne never seem to falter...

I think it's a combo of both... own consistency issues as well as timing/team issue.

 

[TGee]

I didn't say it was a lubov issue but said it is a "in competition" issue, slight but important difference

i think that some people may see it as a lubov issue since

1) dylan and kristen were stable
2) she is the one who pops the jumps in competition.


I know what you are referring to as being a timing/synchro issue... fine but then, it would be better that she just goes for the jump than popping them no? Especially since other teams are not getting penalized...

Seriously, they would lose less points like that. However, I appreciate their effort to develop true synchronicity. It is admirable. You can see how Meagan and Eric have also had to adjust their technique Maybe Lubov needs a leg wrap

I understand that folks are thinking that it's Lubov, and the fact that Tracy felt she had to make the point means that they are aware of the inference being made.

So so every time someone says something intended to be kind and encouraging to Lubov, my reaction is, given this is pairs, why are folks pointing at one partner?.....why are effectively making it her problem rather than theirs...?

On the counter facts....I haven't seen any evidence that Lubov had problems in SBS jumps as a junior....and we know that she came from a very different school of technique...

Popping a jump when you've delayed a takeoff too much is a natural response to prevent a bad, legs crumpled up under you type of fall of the kind Meagan did at Skate Canada. And if she's delaying to match a partner it's very different thing than a pop because she didn't set up the jump well.

And I agree that it might be better to just go for it when she's ready as the penalty for lack of sync doesn't seem to be what it should be.

One thing to keep in mind is that in any pairs team, one partner is designated as the one to adjust during a competition to get things in sync ....whether mirrored steps, spins or jumps.

If both try to adjust, then things get more out of sync. So one has that role....

It's hard to see which one is designated unless a spin really gets quite out of sync....I'd need to look at some of their spins in their really early videos to see whether or not it's Lubov who does the adjustment in this team...

I do know that at their first worlds when she missed a jump and went straight on with the cantilever entry into the death spiral, he wasn't where she expected him to be....the pairs magic of just knowing where each other should be when, even after an error, wasn't fully there in competition at that point. If at this point it's only the SBS jumps, I count that as progress....

And it's all he more evidence that pairs absolutely is hands down the hardest discipline....

 

[4everchan]

totally agree with your post Tgee.

I think that a compromise needs to be made for now, so that they at least both jump.

The issue with missing so many of them, even if there is a great reason for popping as you have explained (if she needs to delay etc) is that then it can lead to lack of confidence and mental mistakes. It becomes added pressure. I wouldn't want her to feel scared like Peng seem to feel last year. Plus, I have a really soft spot for her. She's so genuine and full of joy!

 

[Mango]

I'm going to digress from Rostelecom Cup for one post. Because I went to Central Ontario Sectionals and I wanted to share this.

I witnessed something beautiful. Two nearly clean skates from Stephen Gogolev.

This post, written after Skate Detroit which was his first competition as a junior, came to mind.

Stephen Gogolev LP wasn't very good, seems that he was skating better last year, I don't see progress, seem that he is stuck.

He scored 234.97 points in total yesterday.

SP: https://youtu.be/OOrn1Ny9WxY
FS: https://youtu.be/Im72Bjtcesc
Protocols: http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Irma/Sectionals 2017/jmde.pdf
Results: http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Irma/Sectionals 2017/jmrs.pdf

His PCS have been low until this point. But setting aside PCS, there is TES and base value.

Elvis Stojko was present, observing the medal ceremonies when I found him. I overheard him mentioning he's heading south, and he will skate on Christmas day. Gabby was also present, cheering on brother Zach who came in fourth after a tough FS. Her family was loud and proud of Zach. It was nice to see. Michelle Long appears to be back to usual. Issues with turn outs after landing jumps but scored 100 points in the FS. She is lovely to watch, I hope she can fix the technical somewhat.

 

[4everchan]

I'm going to digress from Rostelecom Cup for one post. Because I went to Central Ontario Sectionals and I wanted to share this.

I witnessed something beautiful. Two nearly clean skates from Stephen Gogolev.

This post, written after Skate Detroit which was his first competition as a junior, came to mind.



He scored 234.97 points in total yesterday.

SP: https://youtu.be/OOrn1Ny9WxY
FS: https://youtu.be/Im72Bjtcesc
Protocols: http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Irma/Sectionals 2017/jmde.pdf
Results: http://www.skatecanada-centralontario.com/Irma/Sectionals 2017/jmrs.pdf

His PCS have been low until this point. But setting aside PCS, there is TES and base value.

Elvis Stojko was present, observing the medal ceremonies when I found him. I overheard him mentioning he's heading south, and he will skate on Christmas day. Gabby was also present, cheering on brother Zach who came in fourth after a tough FS. Her family was loud and proud of Zach. It was nice to see. Michelle Long appears to be back to usual. Issues with turn outs after landing jumps but scored 100 points in the FS. She is lovely to watch, I hope she can fix the technical somewhat.

wow... awesome skates!

can someone explain the bonus points? never seen this before....

 

[Mango]

wow... awesome skates!

can someone explain the bonus points? never seen this before....

Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think juniors get bonus points for landing 3-3 combos, 3-1/2lo-3 combos, and for doing quads.
Novice skaters get bonuses for triple jumps.

 

[4everchan]

well that would make sense accordingly to this protocol....

Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think juniors get bonus points for landing 3-3 combos, 3-1/2lo-3 combos, and for doing quads.
Novice skaters get bonuses for triple jumps.

 

[moriel]

Are those bonus points common to all junior competition, or that was a specific thing for this competition?

 

[nadster]

Correct me if I'm mistaken but I think juniors get bonus points for landing 3-3 combos, 3-1/2lo-3 combos, and for doing quads.
Novice skaters get bonuses for triple jumps.

First of all for the jumps to get bonus they must be fully rotated.

Novices

Novice men get bonus for any triple that is loop or harder.

Novice ladies get bonus for any triple

Both novice men and women get a bonus point ( above the bonus points for the triples in the combo ) also for a combo where a triple is the second jump in the combo.

By the way the novices in Canada can't do those 1/2 loop combos or any three jump combo for that matter in their FS. ( Unlike the American counterparts ).

Juniors

For the juniors the ladies get a bonus point for doing the triple ( this year the loop ) out of steps in the short program. No other places for bonus.

Junior men get a bonus for any triple axel or quad jump in either short or long. No specific bonus points for combos

 

[nadster]

Are those bonus points common to all junior competition, or that was a specific thing for this competition?

Bonus points are specific to all Canadian domestic competitions only. They do not apply to international competition.

 

[moriel]

Bonus points are specific to all Canadian domestic competitions only. They do not apply to international competition.

Oh i see, i suddenly got confused, i never paid attention to junior protocols =D
Sorry for offtopic ^^

 

[lyndichee]

i saw a non-landed attempt last year early in the season as well..

Here's where I disagree with you though :

An area for progress is available there for them with the throws. Lubov usually lands her throws. Why not keep pushing?
Even with all the work they do with SBS, it shouldn't be the only area they try to improve. I agree it would be nice to have clean programs and that ideally, after getting clean programs, they would augment difficulty (seems like the model for Chinese teams)... but then, if the quads are knocking on the door, why not open it?
Pragmatically, Lubov and Dylan need whatever points they can get, especially since they may lose some on the SBS. I guess that's also why Kavaguti/Smirnoff were doing quad throws....i think their jumping passes included a 2A...

I agree. Let me clarify. I don't mean that just because one of their elements is inconsistent, doesn't mean they should stop all progress on other elements. I would just love to see them triumph with a clean program right now. To get to the top, I don't think there is room for error in pairs, which includes the SBS jumps.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I agree. Let me clarify. I don't mean that just because one of their elements is inconsistent, doesn't mean they should stop all progress on other elements. I would just love to see them triumph with a clean program right now. To get to the top, I don't think there is room for error in pairs, which includes the SBS jumps.

Same with Gabby this weekend, I would love for her to just skate a clean SP and stop worrying about adding more difficulty. As Kaetlyn has proven this season, consistency = podium finishes.

 

[chuckm]

Gogolev is only 11, so he can't even skate internationally as a junior until the 2018-2019 season. It's amazing that he is so technically advanced at this age. He should be able to achieve quite a lot by the time he gets to the JGP/JW.

 

[4everchan]

so you are embarking on my van : 3t-3t GABBY!!!! 3t-3t !!!!

Same with Gabby this weekend, I would love for her to just skate a clean SP and stop worrying about adding more difficulty. As Kaetlyn has proven this season, consistency = podium finishes.

 

[4everchan]

HEHE.. i think Gabby is so fierce...

I imagine this convo I would have with her...

Me : Gabby, if you use the 3t-3t in the SP, you will be at the top or near it... it gives you easily over 10 points as your goe is so high on it... not only it's less risky but it's more rewarding..

Gabby: Fine... ok... Fine.... but then, when I do my 3Lz, i am going to do the rippon... 3Lz is just boring...

Me;

 

[TGee]

Oh i see, i suddenly got confused, i never paid attention to junior protocols =D
Sorry for offtopic ^^

Not off topic at all in my view. This thread's OP states that we can look all the way down to Pre-Juvenile and include discussion of how the Skate Canada system is working.

Looking across a number of changes rolled out since Sochi, Skate Canada has evidently decided to both require and incent coaches and skaters to increase the difficulty of elements and skills at earlier ages and developmental levels.

As Canada's national federation Skate Canada has to work not only within ISU, but also Sport Canada policy. Funding comes from Sport Canada the federal sport authority, including funding for national team members.

The challenge for Skate Canada is that ISU is very age based, while Sport Canada like its UK and Aus equivalents, is focused on Long term athlete development models and "own the podium" programs that emphasize coaching and designing competitions to biological/development stages rather than calendar age. This emphasis on biological age is based on the evidence of modern sports science according to the documentation.

The science is saying that skating is a sport, like diving and gymnastics, that requires a high level of specific skill acquisition before peak growth and puberty. Which means introducing more difficult elements earlier throughout the system.

So, at the lowest levels Skate Canada is in the middle of a fairly radical reworking of the system with more frequent in club assessments for many more elements, absolute judging standards in competition, but later and less emphasis on ranking.

For Novice and Juniors where there are ISU norms that need to be respected, Skate Canada has chosen to give bonus points or certain elements that Skate Canada believes need to be mastered earlier for long run success. That way the required elements and judging stay comparable to ISU norms (just need to drop the bonuses) but there is a domestic incentive system to get these elements in earlier.

 

[Sackie]

I agree - I wish she would go back to the 3t-3t COMBO. The quality of this element it was really made her stand out at worlds last year, and she needs to build on that momentum. I think with it she would have been looking at podium finishes this season. But I think she should have been 3rd at SA!