2016-17 State of Russian Ladies skating

[andromache]

I've purposely over exagerated some of those opinions, but that's the way some of them think (actually there were close posts to this here in this forum from last season), i remember this even in some commentaries (CBC again?), obviously not in that negative way, but they have hinted it.

The second statement is not true: before the season 2014-15 she used to do most of the jumps without the arm variation. The story that she does the tano because she learnt those jumps in that way is an URBAN MYTH, in fact there are some videos of her practice sessions from this summer where she was landing 3f-3lo or 3ltz-3lo, 3lo-3lo all these combos without the arm.

2013-2014 RN SP: not a single tano was given today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvKG-vfX6Is

Lol, after making my post I actually went to do research of my own on youtube, and you're completely right. My bad!

That said, I do think she tanos so frequently that it completely erases any "wow" factor of the tano, and she'd be better served to use it once per program, during a particularly dramatic point in the music - seeing it so often definitely means that this "variation" is not really a variation for her - it has become normal. And I would say this for any skater doing any arm variation. If Adam Rippon threw both arms in the air on every jump, I'd stop seeing it as impressive.

 

[Tolstoj]

Lol, after making my post I actually went to do research of my own on youtube, and you're completely right. My bad!

That said, I do think she tanos so frequently that it completely erases any "wow" factor of the tano, and she'd be better served to use it once per program, during a particularly dramatic point in the music - seeing it so often definitely means that this "variation" is not really a variation for her - it has become normal. And I would say this for any skater doing any arm variation. If Adam Rippon threw both arms in the air on every jump, I'd stop seeing it as impressive.

I know, that's actually Eteri's pragmatic view on figure skating: tanos and backloaded jumps are those kind of things that let you increase the TES so they take full advantage of these rules. Her tano jumps are still so elegant even though less surprising to see.

 

[Pracygr]

If she did a real tano with full extension (a la Jason Brown, Boitano himself, or even Mao that you mentioned), I suspect she would be less consistent. Evgenia's tano arm has a bent elbow which decreases her moment of inertia and makes those jumps easier to rotate (pure physics, not opinion). She gets a GOE bullet point for throwing her arm up, but it doesn't mean anything since she's not actually shifting her center of mass when she tanos (which is the whole point of that difficulty feature).

Unless Evgenia's arms are somehow weightless, bringing one arm up does inevitably shift her center of mass - upwards. Not to mention other difficulty aspects of tano, like longer, less regular tightening up motion. Whoever that was that misled you into thinking that "it doesn't mean anything" should have also provided a long list of other skaters replicating the same style on all of their jumps with ease. Did he do it? If not, you have all the reasons to believe he's not being intellectually honest.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

#FearTheMedvedeva **now featuring weightless arms**

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That said, I do think she tanos so frequently that it completely erases any "wow" factor of the tano, and she'd be better served to use it once per program, during a particularly dramatic point in the music - seeing it so often definitely means that this "variation" is not really a variation for her - it has become normal. And I would say this for any skater doing any arm variation. If Adam Rippon threw both arms in the air on every jump, I'd stop seeing it as impressive.

I agree, but it is really up to the ISU to put rules in place that would discourage its overuse. Perhaps something like giving the GOE bonus once in the SP and twice in the LP that meet each of these features:
1) Difficult entry
2) Air position variation
3) Difficult exit
So a skater can get the bonus on up to 6 jump passes in the LP. I think that would allow skaters to stand out mostly for the quality of the actual jump element, rather than getting massive GOE for mediocre jumps that have a bunch of other features unrelated to the jump's quality. One feature + a well executed jump should be what is given the maximum GOE.

 

[luckyguy]

How many tanos does Zhenya usually make in the FS? Five? I think it is too much. It was refreshing for me to see her 3Lz with fall in Paris.:luv17:

Disclosure: I am a fan of her.

 

[mrrice]

I don't think this a Russian saying but, my Russian ballet teacher used to say........"Honey, If it came in a can, everybody would do it." Med gets her big numbers because she deserves them. Even a simple, "Single Pirouette" is much more difficult when you add the arm variations. If done incorrectly, they completely throw you off center and I've seen several dancers, including myself, fall on a dance floor trying them. They must be a thousand times harder when you're on skates and slippery ice. Now, for non athlete's, I can't say enough how difficult it is to do jumps, turns, and leaps at the end of a performance. The fact that Med can do these massive jump combo's in the second half of her program is simply amazing to me and until someone can do it better, she'll deservedly stay on the podium.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't think this a Russian saying but, my Russian ballet teacher used to say........"Honey, If it came in a can, everybody would do it." Med gets her big numbers because she deserves them. Even a simple, "Single Pirouette" is much more difficult when you add the arm variations. If done incorrectly, they completely throw you off center and I've seen several dancers, including myself, fall on a dance floor trying them. They must be a thousand times harder when you're on skates and slippery ice. Now, for non athlete's, I can't say enough how difficult it is to do jumps, turns, and leaps at the end of a performance. The fact that Med can do these massive jump combo's in second half of her program is simply amazing to me and until someone can do it better, she'll stay on the podium.

I appreciate difficulty, but not as much as variety. Certainly a skater could do eight 3As in a program, and that would be very difficult. However, I think most people wouldn't want to see that. I kind of feel that way about too many tanos.

 

[andromache]

I agree, but it is really up to the ISU to put rules in place that would discourage its overuse. Perhaps something like giving the GOE bonus once in the SP and twice in the LP that meet each of these features:
1) Difficult entry
2) Air position variation
3) Difficult exit
So a skater can get the bonus on up to 6 jump passes in the LP. I think that would allow skaters to stand out mostly for the quality of the actual jump element, rather than getting massive GOE for mediocre jumps that have a bunch of other features unrelated to the jump's quality. One feature + a well executed jump should be what is given the maximum GOE.

I think this overcomplicates the GOE process. Remember that judges are assessing the jumps in real time and going on what they think. GOE rules aren't hard and fast as-is, and I like it that way, as in theory it allows for judges to award GOE based on what they think is good and what they think is bad, which is, to a certain extent, subjective. For Evgenia, after her first few outings, I'd stop considering the tano as a positive feature and just look at it neutrally, and base my assessment and GOE on the rest of the jump. (Probably +1 GOE on average for her jumps...personally, height and distance is more important to me than difficult entrances/exits, so I would save the +2s and +3s for jumps with those attributes - but someone else on the judging panel might find her jumps to their taste and award more.)

 

[Pracygr]

I agree, but it is really up to the ISU to put rules in place that would discourage its overuse. Perhaps something like giving the GOE bonus once in the SP and twice in the LP that meet each of these features:
1) Difficult entry
2) Air position variation
3) Difficult exit
So a skater can get the bonus on up to 6 jump passes in the LP. I think that would allow skaters to stand out mostly for the quality of the actual jump element, rather than getting massive GOE for mediocre jumps that have a bunch of other features unrelated to the jump's quality. One feature + a well executed jump should be what is given the maximum GOE.

So, discourage complex intricate skating in favor of skating in straight line and doing "quality" isolated jumps with long featureless entries? Why would anybody want that? Other than, of course, to make some skaters that cannot master those aspects of figure skating to not have to bother.

 

[mrrice]

I appreciate difficulty, but not as much as variety. Certainly a skater could do eight 3As in a program, and that would be very difficult. However, I think most people wouldn't want to see that. I kind of feel that way about too many tanos.

This is the Crux of the problem. It's almost like Zayaking. Until the bonus she gains from her well executed Tano's decreases, I can't see her making a change.

 

[andromache]

So, discourage complex intricate skating in favor of skating in straight line and doing "quality" isolated jumps with long featureless entries? Why would anybody want that? Other than, of course, to make some skaters that cannot master those aspects of figure skating to not have to bother.

Don't forget that transitions are a PCS feature.

 

[Pracygr]

Don't forget that transitions are a PCS feature.

These are not transitions though.

 

[andromache]

These are not transitions though.

Not according to this.

 

[Pracygr]

Not according to this.

Well, I see no indication of difficult entries or difficult exits being transitions in this document. You don't seem to have a good grasp on what difficult entry/exit actually entails. The element itself doesn't have to be very difficult. It's a cake walk for every pro skater. However what it does is shortening your preparation time, sometimes to almost zero. The jump needs to happen immediately after such element, and an element on exit needs to be there before you put your free leg down. This fact has literally zero reflection in transition score. Without acknowledging difficult entry/exit every skater will be putting as much space between his actual transitions and his jumps as possible. You'd be stupid not to, because it makes jumps that much easier. All programs will become Nathan Chen's programs, while Hanyu type programs will forever stay an oddity nobody else tried to match. Why would you bother, you just need more quads.

 

[andromache]

Well, I see no indication of difficult entries or difficult exits being transitions in this document. You don't seem to have a good grasp on what difficult entry/exit actually entails. The element itself doesn't have to be very difficult. It's a cake walk for every pro skater. However what it does is shortening your preparation time, sometimes to almost zero. The jump needs to happen immediately after such element, and an element on exit needs to be there before you put your free leg down. This fact has literally zero reflection in transition score. Without acknowledging difficult entry/exit every skater will be putting as much space between his actual transitions and his jumps as possible. You'd be stupid not to, because it makes jumps that much easier. All programs will become Nathan Chen's programs, while Hanyu type programs will forever stay an oddity nobody else tried to match. Why would you bother, you just need more quads.

The document literally says, under the transitions category: "In singles, pairs, and synchronized skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements."

Another source: http://iceskatingresources.org/ISUJudging.html

You don't seem to have a good grasp on reading words from sources that disagree with what you already believe to be true.

 

[Pracygr]

The document literally says, under the transitions category: "In singles, pairs, and synchronized skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements."

Another source: http://iceskatingresources.org/ISUJudging.html

You don't seem to have a good grasp on reading words from sources that disagree with what you already believe to be true.

Transitions cover the transition elements themselves, not whether they are spaced out with technical elements, making them difficult or not difficult. Your source agrees with me.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So, discourage complex intricate skating in favor of skating in straight line and doing "quality" isolated jumps with long featureless entries? Why would anybody want that? Other than, of course, to make some skaters that cannot master those aspects of figure skating to not have to bother.

A skater would still benefit if they can do transitions in to and out of jumps. They would just have to be able to balance actually doing jumps well, too. Transitions and air positions are not a substitute for height, flow and control of the jump, but are treated as such with the judging system.

 

[andromache]

Transitions cover the transition elements themselves, not whether they are spaced out with technical elements, making them difficult or not difficult. Your source agrees with me.

I don't see what lines you are reading between to get to that conclusion. Transitions = difficult entries and exits to elements, and thus the transitions PCS category rewards the use of transitions and evaluates how well they link the elements together; ergo, difficult entries and exits link elements together very well = high transitions score. Doing a difficult transition right before a jump makes the transition more difficult, and the PCS category rewards difficult transitions.

You're making up minute differences to reach the conclusion you've already decided on rather than reaching the obvious answer.

But hey, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm glad skaters with less-than-impressive jumps can make up for their lack of quality by introducing lots of difficult entrances and exits to get GOE and a good score in transitions. There's more than one route to success. You, on the other hand, seem out to get skaters with quality jumps who don't necessarily need difficult entrances and exits to earn good GOE.

 

[Pracygr]

A skater would still benefit if they can do transitions in to and out of jumps. They would just have to be able to balance actually doing jumps well, too. Transitions and air positions are not a substitute for height, flow and control of the jump, but are treated as such with the judging system.

Are they substitutes? Is there a rule that prohibits giving more GOE for flow and control if you did difficult entry? If there's a problem here, it's only in fact that the current system is too granular. Your GOE score can max out if you're able to check too many boxes in quality features. This, however, doesn't require any arbitrary artificial per element limitations. Just make the system less granular. Give judges bigger scale to work with and problem solved.