Holocaust: Controversial ice dance routine

[dorispulaski]

Splitting up families, sending women to Siberia, sending men to Baja California and the Pribilofs and retaining children as hostages is not just taking a part of the catch. They also did forced conversion to Christianity. Which, depending on your point of view, could be viewed as either good or bad.

In our South, there are people who will tell you that the Civil War was a war of Northern aggression and was about trade, not slavery. And they will tell you slavery was a good thing.
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/12/ten_conservatives_who_have_praised_slavery/

And the US was no better with respect to the people of the Aleutian Islands and the Kodiak Island group than the Russians. They moved everyone off the Aleutians during WW2.

 

[lyndichee]

Why is this even being debated? Seriously, regardless of whether the treatment of other minority groups is worse or not, none of the actions of either nation is acceptable. That is the not the point of this controversial dance. This isn't a score sheet, we can keep pointing fingers at the U.S. but that doesn't absolve anyone of the horrors of history and the millions of deaths involved in worldwide conflicts.

 

[LRK]

Why is this even being debated? Seriously, regardless of whether the treatment of other minority groups is worse or not, none of the actions of either nation is acceptable. That is the not the point of this controversial dance. This isn't a score sheet, we can keep pointing fingers at the U.S. but that doesn't absolve anyone of the horrors of history and the millions of deaths involved in worldwide conflicts.

Yes - I don't know what is gained by turning this into "Who Has Committed the Worst Atrocities" thread.

 

[samson]

Wow what a difference a travel day makes! Apologies for starting this thread and then not contributing to it further. Before I contribute more I would like to ask that the mods consider a new name for the thread. I intentionally included Tatiana's name because I thought the Time piece had unfairly represented her in their own telling of the facts, but also I was trying to come up with a title that encouraged the discussion to be about the Skating and the content of the program... not strictly about the Holocaust. With that said if someone wants to start a thread somewhere else in the forum that goes into the deeper historical and political nuances that are coming up because of this work I'm so game to have that conversation, but since I posted this in the skating discussion I'll do my best to keep my comments to the skating.

I also thought I'd add a small background on me since I started the discussion and it might offer a better window into why I care. I take issue with the piece from an artistic standpoint because I am a performance artist. I'm an American dance and theatre artist raised in the Vaganova method of ballet technique by Russian teachers (some of them even former Bolshoi soloists so I have instilled in me an immense respect for the history and tradition of Russian art) and in college I lived in Moscow for a time studying acting and theatre at the Moscow Art Theatre. Not only is the Russian aesthetic of theatre massively influential on my own work (Konstantin Raikin is one of my favorite actors and Dmitry Kyrmov and Yuri Butusov I think may be the greatest theatre directors of our time) I have a deep respect and admiration for the culture as a whole and I love studying the history. And for what it's worth I'm also Jewish.

I also care deeply because I am a creator of performance art, it is my career, anytime I see work that I think should be celebrated or thoughtfully critiqued I think it's important to do so do move the conversation forward. And as a passionate fan of figure skating I feel the same way. I have no illusions, I know where our sport stands in the larger conversation to a wider public. I don't expect Time Magazine or the Huffington Post to write a piece on the new aesthetic ground I think P/C are carving in Ice Dance or the remarkable leaps in technical and artistic progress the Mens event has taken since 2010. But this piece, for good or bad, has caught global, viral interest so we would be remiss to not debate it.

I've gotten to read the full thread and I have to say I think some of the discourse is pretty interesting and I hope that discussing this performance gives us all a chance look at these programs and talk about how skaters and choreographers can tackle these issues and events in the future. To clarify I'm of the opinion that art should be dangerous. It should sometimes make us uncomfortable. It's not here strictly to entertain or allow us to disassociate from reality. Not all art is going to be consumable by the masses. And not all things the masses consume is really art. And that's ok. What's not ok is when lazy art is made.

I do think a global reaction to this work is warrented because this work was meant to be consumed by the masses. I understand and would agree that theatre probably is the most local of the arts - but this wasn't really theatre was it? It was television. Television is arguably the most pervasive of the arts - it literally can land in hundreds of millions of living rooms at one moment. That's pretty powerful.

I do think this piece had some good intentions. I also think Tatiana is a savvy competitor. She wouldn't have stuck her neck out on national television like this if she didn't think their was a good chance the audience and judges were going to respond well to it. It was a calculated risk because they were able to see the reactions Julia got in Sochi and Evgenia is getting this year and could see there is precedence for this sort of work. I also think this skate falls into the category of Disaster Porn because it uses a tragic event and a well regarded film as a blueprint for creating an emotional piece of work, but it's missing all the context necessary to understand the choices they made.

I get why folks like Julia's SL program. The girl in the red coat is something that immediately strikes a cord if you've seen the movie, and it you haven't it doesn't matter because Julia in that outfit doesn't fight the themes of the music. And her opening and closing choreo paint a clear story and tell us something very moving. I found everything in between to be detached from the theme though. The footwork, the spirals, the spins all came together to appease the scoring system but didn't have much relationship with the music. That didn't matter much to viewers because the tone was already set and we just had to ride the wave long enough. I took issue with it then, and I still do today, not because I thought it was offensive, but I did think the choreography's lack of connection to the music throughout suggested an exploitation of a story and popular film to give an air of something sophisticated. If you go back and watch the program, the choreography demonstrated a real lack of musicality. There was no true rise and fall. It was all one note, one speed and an occasional arm gesture on the beat. Outside of the opening and closing moments I didn't see all the great acting people were taking about. With all that said, the program was innocuous enough but I do think it opened the door for this LIB program.

I've seen Life Is Beautiful but it wasn't until someone said that's where that song they used was from, and I gave the video and second and third watch, that I even realized I knew the melody. This is where they could have benefited from a strong editor. I think it was a mistake to wear the stripped uniform with the Jewish Star. That imagery is so triggering and instantly throws many people into a certain emotional state and state that I don't think is so valuable especially for watching skating. They are asking a lot of an audience in 3 minutes or so to be able to process that image alone, and pair it with the miming action, with the upbeat music, with the final moment. There were a lot of dots to connect and I don't think they successfully did it. Perhaps that's a function of only having a few days to pull a routine together. And if that's the case then my reaction is Tatiana and her partner (an actor who incidentally I've seen on stage and have admired in the past) should have known better.

Someone else mentioned Guignard and Fabbri's FD from last season. To me it was pretty bad. I didn't find the choreography to be particularly inspiring or unique and it kind of got lost in the shuffle of the FD's last year. Which is really saying something. I mean they use music which already elicits a certain reaction and memory for an audience, they wear costumes that are pretty explicit about the characters circumstances and yet somehow we're left with something very bland and unmemorable? No thanks. Not every work needs to be a masterpiece, but if you're gonna go there please be ready to step up to the plate.

And I get it. As an artist I know how hard it can be to want to tell a certain story or have an idea and then as soon as it's released to a wider public you lose control of the narrative. But that's a learning moment. That's also sometimes a really beautiful thing. And it's the risk we take as artists. Once the work is out there it's open to interpretation and critique. I just read an article confirming Averbukh was in fact the choreographer of this piece, and for him this was an important story to tell and I agree, it is an important story to tell. But I still disagree with the choices he made telling it. I still find the work exploitative regardless of the creators background.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Another day anther pitcher. Your life is beautiful.

Not today! Fighting big pharma.....is it illeagle to guillotine heads of pharma companies who charge whatever the market will bear but only in the US?

 

[CoyoteChris]

..... But was there a case of racial discrimination and institutionalized slavery later on somewhere in Russia? Nope. That's a fact.

Not being critical...just curious....what do Russians call forced labor camps?
http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/

Japan certainly used all sorts of people including American POWs for forced labor....which is very hard to separate from slavery.

 

[BlackPack]

Averbukh(a Russian Jew) of course is the producer of the show... and I'm not sure if he choreographed this dance but he is one of the choreographers for the dances.



If feels wronger to me that there was little discussion of the show before this dust up... I don't care one bit though... it's a Russian show for a Russian audience... I don't care what the american liberal click-bait outrage machine wants me to be outraged about.

Well-said.

Problems start happening when the ideology of liberal political correctness gets imposed on countries that have no such traditions, i.e. Russia.

I remember the controversy when Domnina and Shabalin did their "Aboriginal" Dance. They didn't understand what they did wrong, but countries that have a history of destroying original local populations were ultra-sensitive to their portrayal.

I'm an immigrant who grew up in Northern California which is as liberal, PC, and diverse as it gets. As an adult, I lived in different countries. It took years to accept that other countries simply don't see things the same way and to unravel all that PC indoctrination.

Now I can see why people can be offended by the costumes, but Navka meant no harm. In fact, she expressed she wanted to do the opposite which is to show the despair of the Holocaust. As stated by many already, Averbukh is Jewish and is pretty much the owner of the show. He approved it. As the Cold War in figure skating showed, Russians and North Americans have very different ideas about what's appropriate and tasteful.

What's considered offensive merely mirrors the collective guilt.

Navka was never my favorite skater, nor do I particularly enjoy her portrayal. Averbukh's show is campy fluff which is why it's successful. It is not high art. If they offended North American sensibilities, too bad. They were skating for Russian audiences.

 

[lyndichee]

Well-said.

Problems start happening when the ideology of liberal political correctness gets imposed on countries that have no such traditions, i.e. Russia.

I remember the controversy when Domnina and Shabalin did their "Aboriginal" Dance. They didn't understand what they did wrong, but countries that have a history of destroying original local populations were ultra-sensitive to their portrayal.

I'm an immigrant who grew up in Northern California which is as liberal, PC, and diverse as it gets. As an adult, I lived in different countries. It took years to accept that other countries simply don't see things the same way and to unravel all that PC indoctrination.

Now I can see why people can be offended by the costumes, but Navka meant no harm. In fact, she expressed she wanted to do the opposite which is to show the despair of the Holocaust. As stated by many already, Averbukh is Jewish and is pretty much the owner of the show. He approved it. As the Cold War in figure skating showed, Russians and North Americans have very different ideas about what's appropriate and tasteful.

What's considered offensive merely mirrors the collective guilt.

Navka was never my favorite skater, nor do I particularly enjoy her portrayal. Averbukh's show is campy fluff which is why it's successful. It is not high art. If they offended North American sensibilities, too bad. They were skating for Russian audiences.

I think that is an extremely dangerous precedent to set. Just because it was a Russian-Jewish choreographer and a Russian show, doesn't mean the content of which do not affect the whole world. This applies to any nationality, not just US-Russia relationships. It is open world with the Internet and if there are problems with the portrayal of sensitive cultural issues, I don't see why people shouldn't care.

andromache had a great response here about objection to the idea of political correctness.

"Political correctness" often has such a negative connotation. I would prefer to call it "respect." Respecting one's own roots and values while simultaneously respecting the roots and values of someone different than yourself.

There are lots of posts about cultural appropriation as well. 4everchan mentions it and I provided an explanation. If you are against it, then please explain to us possibly "liberal political correctness" members why we are wrong.

I see both points here... i haven't watched sorry.. (yes, if I am commenting without watching, perhaps this thread should get into the politics section of the forum)

Some say : art is art... others say : art shouldn't be about such topics...

Here's what I can contribute to this thread.

Cultural appropriation is a rather new concept.

For those who don't know it's when people from another culture, take on a topic, discussing it or transliterating it into art (movies, dance, anything) from a foreign culture to theirs... In general, it's not a good move as the world is finally realizing (and still has a lot to do in that sense) how badly everyone has treated other humans from other cultures.... there are so many fine lines NOT TO CROSS when it comes to cultural appropriation... that's it's a real mine field. An artist or a performer should be aware of this and if they are willing to use such content, should do due diligence and consult, research and try to understand the deep roots of a culture. Most of the times though, it's done very casually and it is quite insulting to this movement that aims to show respect to cultures that are/were oppressed.

For instance: D/S doing a "native" dance for Vancouver 2010... considering the history of British Columbia, and Vancouver, it was a very inappropriate move... It could have been perceived better if they had worked with local tribes, if they had contacted any expert in the field... but no.. it was so tacky that people were struck by an awkward silence. We could bring up a bunch of other teams doing bollywood or having jewish/holocaust themes... It has happened so many times....

However : there are multiple fine lines... sometimes, a performance CAN bring people together, whatever the past. Julia's Schindler's list is an example of that. Sometimes art or performance can bridge the gap between cultures. Sometimes though, it is seen as appropriation.... in other words : why would anyone take the culture of an oppressed people to earn profit out of it... to entertain... ????

I understand Averbukh is Russian-Jewish... however his track record is just ill here.. with the oh so many programs with controversial topics he has conceived...
On top of that, he doesn't need to defend them as he is not the one performing them. To me, it appears as he seeks those topics in disguise of lack of true artistic inspiration. It may be a harsh judgment but that's what his track records imply IMHO.

I also studied cultural appropriation in school for a while and I think 4everchan made a good summary.

Just to tack on an example, cultural appropriation is also about an imbalance of power. For example, fashion is considered art. However, many celebrities such as Selena Gomez and Gwen Stefani wore "bindis" as a fashion statement. For those unfamiliar, it is the red decorative mark worn in the middle of the forehead by Indian women (specifically Hindu and some other cultures I believe). While some might see this as multicultural, this sign was not always one of culture. For instance, there was a hate group years ago called "The Indian Dot Busters" who threatened and killed Indians in New Jersey. They would sometimes identify people by those who wore bindis, obviously by their name. Sometimes appropriating this part of the culture just as art/fashion statement can be hurtful. This is similar to the costumes and the Star of David symbol on the prison uniforms. This represents pain and a history of extreme oppression that the world should never allow happen.

One that would bring less of an issue is Yulia's Schindler's List program. She is not directly showing the horrors of the Holocaust by borrowing the story and costumes directly. Instead she interpreted the story of the little girl in the red coat. This is much more subtle and tasteful art.

I really don't think it is an accident that so many people find this portrayal so offensive. I think it is really unproductive if one continues to point fingers but don't actually explain the issue at hand.

 

[Yatagarasu]

There are lots of posts about cultural appropriation as well. 4everchan mentions it and I provided an explanation.

But it's not cultural appropriation. Averbukh is Jewish and therefore cannot culturally appropriate his own culture. It's already his.

 

[andromache]

There are lots of posts about cultural appropriation as well. 4everchan mentions it and I provided an explanation. If you are against it, then please explain to us possibly "liberal political correctness" members why we are wrong.





I really don't think it is an accident that so many people find this portrayal so offensive. I think it is really unproductive if one continues to point fingers but don't actually explain the issue at hand.

While I largely agree with your post, I want to state here that I don't really consider this particular program to be cultural appropriation - that would mean that the Holocaust is assigned to a culture, when really, I don't think it is. Yes, Jews were the largest group impacted, but the uniforms, the concentration camps - these are not a part of culture. They are representations of genocide and genocide is almost always an unsuitable topic of entertainment, unless it is being used to educate viewers (Schindler's List film) or it is victims/survivors/family telling their stories and/or trying to come to terms with what happened.

Is a figure skating program capable of teaching something about the genocide of millions of people? I doubt it. Should a skating program reenact rape and/or murder? Nope. Let's keep "reenacting crimes against humanity" off of the list of acceptable things to portray in skating.

 

[eli60056]

While I largely agree with your post, I want to state here that I don't really consider this particular program to be cultural appropriation - that would mean that the Holocaust is assigned to a culture, when really, I don't think it is. Yes, Jews were the largest group impacted, but the uniforms, the concentration camps - these are not a part of culture. They are representations of genocide and genocide is almost always an unsuitable topic of entertainment, unless it is being used to educate viewers (Schindler's List film) or it is victims/survivors/family telling their stories and/or trying to come to terms with what happened.

Is a figure skating program capable of teaching something about the genocide of millions of people? I doubt it. Should a skating program reenact rape and/or murder? Nope. Let's keep "reenacting crimes against humanity" off of the list of acceptable things to portray in skating.

Not a particular fan of either Navka or Ice Age, or Averbukh, but you will excuse me if I roll my eyes at the very selective way with art that you advocate here. Schindler's list is a movie, and not a documentary at that. Yes, it is based on a true story, but by the very definition of being a movie, it is an entertainment. If an artist, who is not a survivor, victim or a family member of such, wants to paint a picture of Holocaust victims, to express his feelings of horror, is that also not allowed, because it is not educational? Art and entertainment go hand in hand. Russians for the most part consider figure skating as an art. Who is to say then where the line is drawn in terms of which art media is allowed and which is not to interpret sensitive topics?

 

[lyndichee]

But it's not cultural appropriation. Averbukh is Jewish and therefore cannot culturally appropriate his own culture. It's already his.

I am talking about the perspective of Navka and her partner portrayal. As well, just because he is part of the Jewish community doesn't mean he cannot produce something that is offensive to others who share the same community.

While I largely agree with your post, I want to state here that I don't really consider this particular program to be cultural appropriation - that would mean that the Holocaust is assigned to a culture, when really, I don't think it is. Yes, Jews were the largest group impacted, but the uniforms, the concentration camps - these are not a part of culture. They are representations of genocide and genocide is almost always an unsuitable topic of entertainment, unless it is being used to educate viewers (Schindler's List film) or it is victims/survivors/family telling their stories and/or trying to come to terms with what happened.

Is a figure skating program capable of teaching something about the genocide of millions of people? I doubt it. Should a skating program reenact rape and/or murder? Nope. Let's keep "reenacting crimes against humanity" off of the list of acceptable things to portray in skating.

I don't think figure skating is capable of teaching, but I think it is capable of relating. I don't think Schindler's List can teach much, but I think a lot of people relate to the feelings despair and sadness but I am just getting into pedantics. I agree that literally reenacting is not very acceptable.


To address the both of you. Yes, my definition and point was probably too broad so I'll be more clear. I don't assign the Holocaust as a culture but I felt the uniform and the Star of David used to portray this piece of history I think has parallels with it that can help explain the backlash. I think understanding cultural appropriation can also help us understand why this is "controversial." I don't really like to use the world controversial in this case because I don't think it's as gray of an area as people like to think since it appears to me that it was done in very poor taste. I hope this helps.

 

[andromache]

Not a particular fan of either Navka or Ice Age, or Averbukh, but you will excuse me if I roll my eyes at the very selective way with art that you advocate here. Schindler's list is a movie, and not a documentary at that. Yes, it is based on a true story, but by the very definition of being a movie, it is an entertainment. If an artist, who is not a survivor, victim or a family member of such, wants to paint a picture of Holocaust victims, to express his feelings, is that also not allowed? Art and entertainment go hand in hand. Russians for the most part consider figure skating as an art. Who is to say then where the line is drawn in terms of which art media is allowed and which is not to interpret sensitive topics?

Art and education go hand in hand as do education and entertainment. It's likely that someone who sees Schindler's List will get a lot of positive things out of it - they will have learned about the work of Oskar Schindler, gained a REALISTIC view of the Holocaust (the film is grounded in realism, which skating is unable to achieve) and the rare juxtaposition of horror and emergent hope and heroism means that audiences can learn about the horrors of the Holocaust while still understanding something important and positive about humanity. In addition, the film does not sensationalize its material for drama or shock value.

Art and media can attempt to interpret whatever sensitive topics they wish, but sometimes it goes badly. Figure skating, IMO, is not suited for the reenactment of horrors in a way that film is. We can recognize the limitations and weaknesses of particular mediums, subjects, and individual artists. Do I think there should be a rule or law that forbids artists from interpreting sensitive subjects? No.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I am talking about the perspective of Navka and her partner portrayal. As well, just because he is part of the Jewish community doesn't mean he cannot produce something that is offensive to others who share the same community.

So the creator doesn't count but the people who are turning his creation into life, do? In other words, no non-Jew is allowed to ever act the part of a Jew in any movie, theater or dance in this case, because to you, that's otherwise cultural appropriation? Then any music accompanying has to be made by a Jewish person too as well as the story. Don't you see how incredibly limiting this attitude is? Taking anything into extremes just turns the whole subject pointless and the backlash is usually severe enough that actual, easily understood, points which are air-tight get swept away with it.

Of course a Jewish person can produce something offensive but that has nothing to do with the issue of whether this is cultural appropriation or not.

 

[lyndichee]

So the creator doesn't count but the people who are turning his creation into life, do? In other words, no non-Jew is allowed to ever act the part of a Jew in any movie, theater or dance in this case, because to you, that's otherwise cultural appropriation? Then any music accompanying has to be made by a Jewish person too as well as the story. Don't you see how incredibly limiting this attitude is? Taking anything into extremes just turns the whole subject pointless and the backlash is usually severe enough that actual, easily understood, points which are air-tight get swept away with it.

Of course a Jewish person can produce something offensive but that has nothing to do with the issue of whether this is cultural appropriation or not.

Please read the entire post. I clarified my position.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Please read the entire post. I clarified my position.

I have actually and I still don't agree with it, in regards to cultural appropriation itself. Averbukh as a Jew created this piece and as such, the issue of it simply disappears as far as I am concerned. Now, whether this is controversial is a legitimate question and most reasons have been raised here from what I've seen. From exploitation of an immense tragedy for commercial purposes to simply poor taste.

I haven't seen anyone mention it here and apologies if I missed it but personally it took me several views to realize what was especially making me uncomfortable and that was the audience and the response of cheering and clapping. This is where andromache's question of whether figure skating as a medium is appropriate is particularly important for me. Audiences are used to 'rewarding' the skaters during the program but considering the theme, I think it was completely inappropriate.

This is where Averbukh fails for me while the movie succeeds. With everything that is happening in the movie, it still conveys the tragedy of the whole event, in some ways it actually makes the horror of it underlined and it hits you harder, with a greater punch. In Averbukh's case, that got lost because the medium of skating combined with a very short time period did not successfully convey what IMO it should have, what it must, considering the topic. If it had, I don't think the audience response would have been what it was.

To andromache, in regards to the idea of using skating for something like this, personally I think it would be possible but it would require a longer production, something almost like a movie where the audience is capable of absorbing the entirety of the picture and in which case, the general message which should be taken in from this wouldn't be oh how skillful these two are but the immeasurable horror of the event. So yes, even with the clothes, I consider it possible but with much more care, much more time and much, much more thought put into it.

In general, I think art even if it fails still succeeds because conversations like these end up happening.

 

[lyndichee]

I have actually and I still don't agree with it, in regards to cultural appropriation itself. Averbukh as a Jew created this piece and as such, the issue of it simply disappears as far as I am concerned. Now, whether this is controversial is a legitimate question and most reasons have been raised here from what I've seen. From exploitation of an immense tragedy for commercial purposes to simply poor taste.

I haven't seen anyone mention it here but apologies if I missed it but personally it took me several views to realize what was especially making me uncomfortable and that was the audience and the response of cheering and clapping. This is where andromache's question of whether figure skating as a medium is appropriate is particularly important for me. Audiences are used to 'rewarding' the skaters during the program but considering the theme, I think it was completely inappropriate.

This is where Averbukh fails for me while the movie succeeds. With everything that is happening in the movie, it still still conveys the tragedy of the whole event, in some ways it actually makes the horror of it underlined and it hits you harder, with a greater punch. In Averbukh's case, that got lost because the medium of skating combined with a very short time period did not successfully convey what IMO it should have. If it had, I don't think the audience response would have been what it was.

To andromache, in regards to the idea of using skating for something like this, personally I think it would be possible but it would require a longer production, something almost like a movie where the audience is capable of absorbing the entirety of the picture and in which case, the general message which should be taken in from this wouldn't be oh how skillful these two are but the immeasurable horror of the event. So yes, even with the clothes, I consider it possible but with much more care, much more time and much, much more thought put into it.

In general, I think art even if it fails still succeeds because conversations like these ends up happening.

I said it wasn't, my entire post said it is a parallel that helps other understand where the controversy and negative connotations is coming from.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I said it wasn't, my entire post said it is a parallel that helps other understand where the controversy and negative connotations is coming from.

My apologies then, I misunderstood that controversial sentence!

 

[Ares]

That dance has already over million views on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3FsrjBASNY

As for the movie on which this program is supposedly based that I watched - well this is comedy but mixed with drama film what makes sense. I think it's one of the best movies that I watched, I don't think this program makes justice to the story though, and in fact comes off as cheap. For those who don't know context it reasonably strikes them as outrageous. There is some noise about it in Poland too right now and many are disgusted, I think they should dig bit deeper to understand it even if they don't like it just like me.

 

[gmyers]

That dance has already 3 millions views on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3FsrjBASNY

As for the movie on which this program is supposedly based that I watched - well this is comedy but mixed with drama film what makes sense. I think it's one of the best movies that I watched, I don't that this program makes justice to the story though, and in fact comes off as cheap. For those who don't know context it reasonably strikes them as outrageous.

I don't really care about ignorant people being outraged. Know the context!