US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Sasha'sSpins]

Thank goodness Mirai made the 4CCs team! And 1st alternate for Worlds! I am SO glad USFS went with the podium and not reputation this time. I was rather worried there for a moment that they wouldn't. Love Gracie but she is NOT ready for Worlds by a long shot.

 

[frida80]

I think you missed my point.

Vincent got bumped due to age. I wonder of USFS talked about bumping Karen too because of her age.

Vincent didn't get bumped because of age. He got bumped because Jason's subpar performance was because of an injury. Their free scores were basically the same. Jason made the case that he would be a good candidate for worlds, by showing himself at 80%. Vincent also very little senior experience.

Karen, OTOH, has skates senior for two years, four GP, 4CC, and 4 Challenger series and medaled. Mirai nor Gracie were injured (physically), and most importantly she won! If she had bombed and placed third, there would be a case for not sending her.

 

[frida80]

It is a vast oversimplification (IMO) to say that Vincent got bumped due to age.

Differences btwn Vincent's situation vs. Karen's:

Vincent won silver at Nats. Karen won gold.
Plus the men have only two World slots. The ladies have three.
If the men had three slots, it is very possible that Vincent would have been the third man.

Vincent's entire senior international experience consists of the SP at Golden Spin. He withdrew from the FS.
Karen has much more senior international experience than Vincent.
Karen has been to four senior GPs; to Four Continents; and to four Challengers. http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs_cr_00034366.htm​

I should read responses before replying! You said exactly what I did!

 

[RemyRose]

Will it be enough for two spots? I'm not sure.

God, I hope so US men are that bad

 

[skatinggold]

It is a bit sad that the USFS is sending someone who can't even land a quad to worlds while Vincent has a quad lutz and sal. Why are they still promoting someone who will never get near the podium. Vincent should go, Vincent earned his spot to Worlds with his second place at Nationals and his medals in the JR grand Prix.

 

[karne]

It is a bit sad that the USFS is sending someone who can't even land a quad to worlds while Vincent has a quad lutz and sal. Why are they still promoting someone who will never get near the podium. Vincent should go, Vincent earned his spot to Worlds with his second place at Nationals and his medals in the JR grand Prix.

Reminder: Jason has finished 4th at Worlds before.

Reminder 2: Not only has Vincent not got the Senior TES scores, he has never competed as a Senior internationally. You really want to send him off to Worlds as his first Senior comp and tell him oh by the way, we really need those three spots back, no pressure? Remember how well that worked out for Russia?

 

[Mathman]

I wonder of USFS talked about bumping Karen too because of her age.

I am sure that there was no discussion of any sort on the ladies' side. The choice was obvious.

What I think they should have done on the men's side is submit Nathan and Vincent for senior worlds, and then sent Vincent to Four Continents to see if he can get the required minimum international scores there. If not, Jason is the first alternate.

That is a little hard on Jason because he will not know if he needs to stay competition-ready or if he can begin his rehabilitation immediately for next year. But that's sport.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jason as much as I like Mirai. Still, it is what it is.

 

[karne]

What I think they should have done on the men's side is submit Nathan and Vincent for senior worlds, and then sent Vincent to Four Continents to see if he can get the required minimum international scores there. If not, Jason is the first alternate.

Vincent doesn't have the minimum score for 4CC either, and the deadline for that is Tuesday.

 

[skatinggold]

Reminder: Jason has finished 4th at Worlds before.

Reminder 2: Not only has Vincent not got the Senior TES scores, he has never competed as a Senior internationally. You really want to send him off to Worlds as his first Senior comp and tell him oh by the way, we really need those three spots back, no pressure? Remember how well that worked out for Russia?

Vincent can get the Senior TES at the Senior Competition coming up. Jason's World's Finish was 2 years ago when competition is not as fierce. Same competition where Nam Nguyen was 5th. There was no Shoma, Boyang, Patrick, Nathan, Mikhail , and etc. Even with his near perfect free program at National, Jason still can't beat a flawed Vincent at Nationals. His PCS is not going to make up for his technical deficiencies. I have a feeling that we might not get our three spots back. I think this is just setting up for Brown to go to the Olympics even if Vincent finishes second next year.

 

[el henry]

I am sure that there was no discussion of any sort on the ladies' side. The choice was obvious.

What I think they should have done on the men's side is submit Nathan and Vincent for senior worlds, and then sent Vincent to Four Continents to see if he can get the required minimum international scores there. If not, Jason is the first alternate.

That is a little hard on Jason because he will not know if he needs to stay competition-ready or if he can begin his rehabilitation immediately for next year. But that's sport.

Don't get me wrong, I like Jason as much as I like Mirai. Still, it is what it is.

You know that I am a big proponent of "What did you bring to the ice in this comp?" and taking that as the result.

But in Vincent's case, if he wanted to go to Worlds, should he not have gotten the Worlds Minimum *prior* to Nats? Why should USFS accommodate his (team's) failure to do so?

Of course, as a Jason fan I am thrilled with the outcome, but I am trying to be (somewhat) intellectually honest here. Whose responsibility is it?

 

[karne]

I think this is just setting up for Brown to go to the Olympics even if Vincent finishes second next year.

Oh, good grief.

 

[Eislauf]

Vincent can get the Senior TES at the Senior Competition coming up. Jason's World's Finish was 2 years ago when competition is not as fierce. Same competition where Nam Nguyen was 5th. There was no Shoma, Boyang, Patrick, Nathan, Mikhail , and etc. Even with his near perfect free program at National, Jason still can't beat a flawed Vincent at Nationals. His PCS is not going to make up for his technical deficiencies. I have a feeling that we might not get our three spots back. I think this is just setting up for Brown to go to the Olympics even if Vincent finishes second next year.

Also, Jason's 4th place finish at 2015 World's was 20 pts behind the bronze medalist, Denis Ten.

 

[katmari]

I am in agreement with the USFS decision to send Jason over Vincent. As of today when the event took place Vincent doesn't meet the minimum qualification to compete at worlds. Out of curiosity, has the USFS ever named a skater to the world team who did not meet the technical criteria at the time of selection?

 

[Mathman]

...Why should USFS accommodate his (team's) failure to do so?

...Whose responsibility is it?

That's a good question. I don't know. Does the skater jump up and say, "I am going to Ondrei Nepala" or does the USFSA send him?

 

[Mathman]

Vincent doesn't have the minimum score for 4CC either, and the deadline for that is Tuesday.

I guess that's why the USFSA selection committee didn't ask my opinion.

 

[ice coverage]

... But in Vincent's case, if he wanted to go to Worlds, should he not have gotten the Worlds Minimum *prior* to Nats? Why should USFS accommodate his (team's) failure to do so? ...

INJURY prevented Vincent from getting the FS TES minimum for Worlds.
As a fan of Jason, you surely can understand that INJURY is not a "failure" of the skater or of the skater's team.
Last year, would you have asked why USFS should "accommodate" Jason's "failure" to compete at Nats and grant his petition to compete at Worlds?

Vincent competed in the Golden Spin SP.
If he had not been injured and had been able to compete in the FS, he no doubt would have exceeded the TES minimum for Senior Worlds.

ETA (on Jan 24):

I see now that Vincent's SP score at Golden Spin was not sufficient for the SP TES minimum for Worlds.
To serve as first alternate for Worlds, he needs both SP and FS TES minimums.​

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... Out of curiosity, has the USFS ever named a skater to the world team who did not meet the technical criteria at the time of selection?

Not sure about Worlds. But USFS assigned Tyler Pierce to 2016 Junior Worlds before she had the minimum TES.

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... Does the skater jump up and say, "I am going to Ondrei Nepala" or does the USFSA send him?

The ISU member (such as USFS) must enter skaters in Nepela (for example). Individual skaters cannot enter on their own.
For Challenger comps, non-host countries are allowed only three entries per discipline.

USFS does allow skaters to express preferences for international comps -- but USFS does not guarantee that preferences will be honored.

 

[kalee]

I am in agreement with the USFS decision to send Jason over Vincent. As of today when the event took place Vincent doesn't meet the minimum qualification to compete at worlds. Out of curiosity, has the USFS ever named a skater to the world team who did not meet the technical criteria at the time of selection?

Not the Worlds team, but when Tyler Pierce was named to the Junior Worlds team last year, she hadn't achieved the TES minima at ISU junior comps. (Shockingly, she did so badly at 2015 JW that she'd missed the min TES for the FP.) She had already posted senior level ISU scores that not only met, but busted, those minimums during the 2015-16 season, but still had to go to Bavarian Open to get those boxes checked at Junior level.

 

[TontoK]

It is a bit sad that the USFS is sending someone who can't even land a quad to worlds while Vincent has a quad lutz and sal. Why are they still promoting someone who will never get near the podium. Vincent should go, Vincent earned his spot to Worlds with his second place at Nationals and his medals in the JR grand Prix.

This is an excellent argument. If Jason skates perfectly with the technical content he planned at this competition, I still think a Top 10 finish would be a stretch. If he skates that SP at World's, he probably won't even make the free skate.

Yeah, he was 4th a couple of years ago, but this sport has progressed technically at an astonishing rate. He hasn't kept pace.

That said, given that Vincent doesn't have the TES, I don't see where there is much choice.

 

[Mrs. P]

This is an excellent argument. If Jason skates perfectly with the technical content he planned at this competition, I still think a Top 10 finish would be a stretch. If he skates that SP at World's, he probably won't even make the free skate.

Yeah, he was 4th a couple of years ago, but this sport has progressed technically at an astonishing rate. He hasn't kept pace.

That said, given that Vincent doesn't have the TES, I don't see where there is much choice.

But he isn't going to skate the planned content he did at THIS competition. He HAD to do that content because he only started jumping 1.5 weeks ago. The end game is for him to bring back the quad (or quads, even) to both programs. Consider that. If he can do that much in 1.5 weeks condensed training time frame, he is going to be able to do a lot more physically with 4 weeks (for 4CC) and 8 weeks.

Given his condition and the number of planned quads from the field, he could have ended up much lower and this wouldn't even be a discussion point. But he didn't. There's a reason. It's cause he's a gritty competitor. We whine up and down about headcases and people who don't have a competition mindset. I mean we're spending countless threads lamenting (we being the forum membership) about how Gracie can't get it together. And here's someone who didn't even have a full training schedule leading up to Nationals who ended up on the podium.

He does have the 8th highest season's best score right now and that was with a not-perfect SP and a FS with a UR (albeit landed) quad.

And Vincent doesn't HAVE the quad lutz yet. He popped it in his FS, which actually caused him to zayak later in the program. If people are going to play the "Jason's never landed a quad because the one he landed was UR" then Vincent doesn't have the quad lutz yet either.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think it's pretty obvious there will be monitoring going for Jason just to make sure he's in at least Skate America shape by Worlds and that the USFS are praying Vincent gets the minimums at Bravarian Open just in case they need to use him. The monitoring just won't be public.