US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)
- Thread starter gsk8
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Me too. Honestly, I would have preferred him not to get worlds because of the amount of consternation. He didn't twist USFS' arm to give him the spot. Had it been the other way, he would have accepted the decision -- he said that in several interviews. I was personally thrilled he got 4CC alone and on Friday, I thought a WTT assignment later in the season was his best case scenario.
And it is a huge gamble, I get it. But I think how he handled himself at this competition was a HUGE factor in why this decision was made. I think had he W/D and tried to petition, like he did last year and like the Knierims did in pairs, he would have been flatly denied. He wanted to prove that he could handle himself in an un-ideal training scenario in a high-pressure competition like Nationals. I think people are really underestimating the amount of competitive mettle it takes to do that.
Seeing that in action probably made USFS more willing to gamble.
Yes, this. Jason lives at the OTC and obviously trains nearby, so they have pretty easy access to him and his practices.
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- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Now that I have read more of the posts, it makes more sense to me that Vincent withdrew because of an injury and did not make the minimums, thank you to all who have posted.
IMO, I do not see that as similar to requesting a bye, but I understand the rationale. Didn't Vincent compete in the JGP this year? In the US at least, I think it is too hard to hedge your bets with both circuits. Then again, I have never been one of those folks who thought that skaters need to compete with the "big boys" or it's a waste of time.
I've lived long enough in this planet not to care about that distinction, and I certainly don't disparage those who choose to skate junior.
Jason doesn't need a quadfest, God forfend. He needs a quad to make top ten, maybe, if everyone else skates clean-ish. But then again, with that glorious long, I don't care what Jason "needs". I just want to see him skate it again.
IMO, I do not see that as similar to requesting a bye, but I understand the rationale. Didn't Vincent compete in the JGP this year? In the US at least, I think it is too hard to hedge your bets with both circuits. Then again, I have never been one of those folks who thought that skaters need to compete with the "big boys" or it's a waste of time.
I've lived long enough in this planet not to care about that distinction, and I certainly don't disparage those who choose to skate junior.Jason doesn't need a quadfest, God forfend. He needs a quad to make top ten, maybe, if everyone else skates clean-ish. But then again, with that glorious long, I don't care what Jason "needs". I just want to see him skate it again.
Now that I have read more of the posts, it makes more sense to me that Vincent withdrew because of an injury and did not make the minimums, thank you to all who have posted.
IMO, I do not see that as similar to requesting a bye, but I understand the rationale. Didn't Vincent compete in the JGP this year? In the US at least, I think it is too hard to hedge your bets with both circuits. Then again, I have never been one of those folks who thought that skaters need to compete with the "big boys" or it's a waste of time.
Jason doesn't need a quadfest, God forfend. He needs a quad to make top ten, maybe, if everyone else skates clean-ish. But then again, with that glorious long, I don't care what Jason "needs". I just want to see him skate it again.
To be fair, Jason DOES need a quad (really two, at least one in the SP and the FS). He has garnered the trust of USFS that he'll be at Skate America -- or better, really -- shape by Worlds, and showing interim progress by 4CC. USFS may have the policy that allows them more flexibility, but it's so dang new that the proof of concept is not there. And Mathman and others are right -- there needs to be prominence of a national championship factored in.
So USFS is gambling that Jason will follow through on what he promised. Their reputation and their policy is on the line. He can't afford to say "I don't need a quad." The reaction of posters here is enough that he can't be careless with the opportunity (and obviously he takes it seriously, but just stressing this for the -- Jason skates beautiful programs crowd).
So for what it's worth...some numbers:
Jason Brown:
Season's best score: 268.38 (Skate America - 2nd among the U.S. men)
Season's worst score: 218.47 (NHK Trophy)
Average: 249.35 (3rd, behind Nathan and Adam Rippon)
SP:
Average Overall: 81.21
Highest: 85.75
Highest TES: 43.90
Average TES: 39.65
Highest PCS: 43.32
Average PCS: 42.29
FS:
Average Overall: 168.14
Highest: 182.64
Highest TES: 92.61
Average: 82.33
Highest PCS: 90.02
Average: 86.56
Vincent Zhou
Season's best score: 226.39 (JGP Yokohama)
Season's worst score: 213.92
Season's average: 220.16 (not a great number since he only did two JGPs in the fall and didn't complete his senior B)
SP (now one important point, quads are not allowed in the SP at the junior level:
Average: 74.41
Highest: 80.53
Highest TES: 44.60
AVerage: 39.32
Highest PCS: 36.00
Average: 35.76
FS:
Average: 140.70
Highest: 145.57
Highest TES: 75.52
Average: 71.35
Highest PCS: 70.64
Average: 70.49.
This is major apples an oranges comparison, due to required content/restrictions in juniors, but alas that is what selection committee folks have to work with.
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- Joined
- Dec 10, 2013
Skaters that will surely score above Brown: Hanyu, Fernandez, Chan, Chen, Uno, Jin?
Skaters that will likely score above Brown: Kolyada, Ten.
In all likelihood Brown is looking at 9th place so Chen will probably need a podium place to secure that third spot.
Skaters that will likely score above Brown: Kolyada, Ten.
In all likelihood Brown is looking at 9th place so Chen will probably need a podium place to secure that third spot.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That is just what will happen! Three Olympic spots for the USA men!
Jason = Nam, Vincent = Liam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2014
Skaters that would surely score above Vincent: Hanyu, Fernandez, Chan, Chen, Uno, Jin
Skaters that would likely score above Vincent: Kolyada, Ten.
In all likelihood Vincent would be looking at 9th place so Chen would probably need a podium place to secure that third spot.
More or less the same?
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
It amazes me how many people on this forum can't read a protocol or do basic math.
Jason messed up 3 jumping passes SP (3A << fall, 3z <, FS 2S+SEQ+2S) in two programs, not because he can't do the jumps - he normally gets full credit and +GOE on all of them - but because he was competing with an injury that hampered picking with his right foot and shortened his training time.
SP score: 79.23
Points lost (assuming 0 GOE instead of negative GOE): 3A + fall = 6.7, 3z = 2.88
Total points lost SP: 10.68
FS score: 175.00
Points lost on combo: 10.91
79.23 + 10.68 + 175.00 + 10.91 = 89.91 SP + 185.91 FS = 275.82
That is, a healthy Jason executing those 3 jumping passes adequately, without any positive GOE, and without a single quad, would have beaten Vincent by almost 13 points.
In the interests of fairness, I'll point out that even if Vincent had gotten 0 GOE (instead of - 0.14 GOE) on his SP 3A and fully rotated the 4Z and gotten 0 (not -2.00) GOE in the FS, he only would have earned about 7 more points, so Jason would still have beaten him.
Frankly, instead of dissing Jason, I think we should be glad to have him: he's as steely and gritty a competitor as Nathan, with totally different strengths. Vincent has potential, but his season's best internationsl score is about 40 points lower than Jason's and he has no senior international experience.
For those of you who think having quads automatically makes you a contender for the top ten at Worlds, I'd like to point out that at 2016 Worlds, 10 men outside the top 10 attempted at least 1 quad in the SP; 3 of those guys didn't even qualify for the FS. In the FS, 7 guys outside the top 10 attempted one or more quads; their placements ranged from 11 to 24.
For the record, Jason's score of 268+ at SA, achieved when he was fully healthy with 1 imperfect quad in each program, would have placed him 4th at 2016 Worlds, ahead of Chan and Kolyada.
Jason messed up 3 jumping passes SP (3A << fall, 3z <, FS 2S+SEQ+2S) in two programs, not because he can't do the jumps - he normally gets full credit and +GOE on all of them - but because he was competing with an injury that hampered picking with his right foot and shortened his training time.
SP score: 79.23
Points lost (assuming 0 GOE instead of negative GOE): 3A + fall = 6.7, 3z = 2.88
Total points lost SP: 10.68
FS score: 175.00
Points lost on combo: 10.91
79.23 + 10.68 + 175.00 + 10.91 = 89.91 SP + 185.91 FS = 275.82
That is, a healthy Jason executing those 3 jumping passes adequately, without any positive GOE, and without a single quad, would have beaten Vincent by almost 13 points.
In the interests of fairness, I'll point out that even if Vincent had gotten 0 GOE (instead of - 0.14 GOE) on his SP 3A and fully rotated the 4Z and gotten 0 (not -2.00) GOE in the FS, he only would have earned about 7 more points, so Jason would still have beaten him.
Frankly, instead of dissing Jason, I think we should be glad to have him: he's as steely and gritty a competitor as Nathan, with totally different strengths. Vincent has potential, but his season's best internationsl score is about 40 points lower than Jason's and he has no senior international experience.
For those of you who think having quads automatically makes you a contender for the top ten at Worlds, I'd like to point out that at 2016 Worlds, 10 men outside the top 10 attempted at least 1 quad in the SP; 3 of those guys didn't even qualify for the FS. In the FS, 7 guys outside the top 10 attempted one or more quads; their placements ranged from 11 to 24.
For the record, Jason's score of 268+ at SA, achieved when he was fully healthy with 1 imperfect quad in each program, would have placed him 4th at 2016 Worlds, ahead of Chan and Kolyada.
The number for 3 spots is 13, so 9th place for Brown means Chen would need 4th; podium not necessary.
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2011
I think we have to be real, regardless of who we sent this year our chances of getting 3 spots back for men or keeping them for ladies are low. I don't think either is impossible, but at this point it would be a nice surprise if we ended up with 3 spots in either discipline.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2014
The biased media unfairly selected camera angles that made four rotations look like three. Jason did more quads in his FS than any American man in history. PERIOD.
If Vincent had landed his first 4Lz he would not have Zayaked his final 3Lz combo, giving him another 6.6 points.
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Shouldn't that 4z attempt have been called 4z<< instead of 3z? Then the 3z wouldn't have been zeroed out.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Does it really matter? The point is that Jason's errors were almost certainly due to his injury. Vincent's were not. And if you think about it, all you're saying is that a healthy Jason doing watered down tech content can either beat or score wthin a couple of points of a healthy Vincent with three fully rotated quads, including a 4Z, in his FS. And not to belabor the point, but Jason's Nats PCS was very minimally inflated over his international PB, whereas Vincent's was inflated 10+ points. Vincent is a very talented kid with a lot of potential, but unlike Nathan, he doesn't strike me as someone about to take the world by storm. That's just my opinion.
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