US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[el henry]

Thinking about next year. If Joshua, Ricky, and Jeremy all come back next , it will be very difficult, with the exception of Nathan, for the rest of the current World Team to get on the National Podium next year. A healthy Adam Rippon would knock Jason and Grant off the podium. I also truly expect Max to bounce back next season. IMO, this year's Nationals were just weird for him and I will always be convinced that his decision to get a new SP was his downfall. If quads are becoming the standard over artistry, I'd have to go with Nathan, Max, and Adam/Joshua for the Olympic team. The "Wrench" will be skaters like Ross Miner, Alex Krasnozhon and Vincent Zhou.

I'm sorry Mrrice, I don't understand this as a flat-out statement. I can't think of one comp in the past two years, where they were both skating, where Adam has finished higher than Jason. (Maybe there has been one, but I can't think of it). Jason has finished higher every time. Including this past year.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm sorry Mrrice, I don't understand this as a flat-out statement. I can't think of one comp in the past two years, where they were both skating, where Adam has finished higher than Jason. (Maybe there has been one, but I can't think of it). Jason has finished higher every time. Including this past year.

I believe the last time that happened was Skate America 2013.

 

[el henry]

Yes. But Zhou placed second at Nationals this year.... And Brown hasn't been super great this year at all. I understand why they did it, but Brown didn't exactly "earn it."

And if you think Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinski did not benefit form getting to comepete at Senior worlds at an early age...It absolutely benefits young skaters. There are plenty of places to see fun skates.

I actually agree that the higher placed skater at Nats should go. I'm a believer in the "single" comp rule. But only *if* they have the minimums to compete. And they don't get a pass for being injured. Vincent didn't qualify. That leaves Jason.

 

[Mrs. P]

I actually agree that the higher placed skater at Nats should go. I'm a believer in the "single" comp rule. But only *if* they have the minimums to compete. And they don't get a pass for being injured. Vincent didn't qualify. That leaves Jason.

To be fair, it's not unprecedented for a skater who didn't have minimum to be sent to a post-Nationals senior B to get minimums. Tyler Pierce went to Bavarian cause she didn't have junior-level PCS for Jr. Worlds (she had been doing senior comps the whole season).

On the other hand, I don't recall any senior-level skaters being sent to senior Bs to qualify for Worlds...

 

[andromache]

When Chen's fans act like he's some kind of new god and all the other US men (except Vincent, of course!!!) should just be thrown on the trash heap, particularly when Chen is getting some spectacularly free passes for stuff Max got crapped on for for years, then yeah, I'll take exception to it.

Got nothing against Chen himself. Kid's crazy talented, obviously.

AFAIK, and I read this thread and others pretty frequently, no one who has praised Chen has thrown other US men on the trash heap. Is it throwing on the trash heap to acknowledge that Nathan has a better chance at a World/Olympic medal than Max/Jason/Adam/Ross/Grant/everyone else? No? That's just being realistic. The majority of fans of US men really seem to appreciate skating of all kinds, whether it is Max's speed and power, Jason's audience engagement, Grant's poise, Josh's lyricism, Adam's musicality, or Nathan's balleticism (is that a word?) and record-breaking quads.

Regardless of everyone else's strengths and weaknesses, it's a fact that Nathan is currently the only one with the technical arsenal to compete for a World or Olympic medal. No trash-heap-throwing necessary. It might've been speculation last season, but this season, Nathan has gone ahead and proved that the hype is real. As long as he stays healthy, he's got the jumps - the skating skills and artistic aspects are a work in progress, but have CLEARLY progressed with every competition. And nerves of steel.

And my Nathan hype doesn't mean that I appreciate other US men any less.

 

[mrrice]

I'm sorry Mrrice, I don't understand this as a flat-out statement. I can't think of one comp in the past two years, where they were both skating, where Adam has finished higher than Jason. (Maybe there has been one, but I can't think of it). Jason has finished higher every time. Including this past year.

Seriously. Was it skate America? If so, that was different. It was pre-injury and Jason landed a quad there. I don't think the program he just did last night would get him into the final flight with the skaters I listed above. I could be wrong but, after following Josh and Jason for so many years. It was always Josh who would finish above Jason internationally. 2015 was the exception.

 

[bekalc]

I did say it has risks...and as I said, I get the skepticism. But I think I've tried to provided measured reasons why it's not completely out of line either.

And Jason is all too aware clearly, judging by his quotes at nationals, the huge responsibility entrusted to him at Worlds.

As I said earlier USFSA would have been better of saying TBA for third men's spot and seeing what happens at the most recent events. Don't see why they can't. In terms of the second spot I think all of the men had some serious questions.

The problem with taking Jason is people are acting like its some kind of safe decision when its not.

And Long term while I don't love Zhou- I do think long term he has more potential. So basically they are making a choice which may not be really the smart choice- and also losing the opportunity to give someone who has a better shot of being competitor long term-more experience.

And I do think they made a mistake with how they treated Max. I don't love Max. (And I prefer Nathan to him) But I must say I think the USFSA did a deserve making the whole argument you don't need a quad to be a complete skater. But right now you do... And I am going to say this:
Hanyu
Chen,
Chan
Fernandez,
Both Russian skaters (Russia has two right)
Denis Ten
Uno
Jin
Han Yin if he went close to clean

All of these guys if they skate well and due their content. Well it won't matter if
And I am sure there are more if Brezina were to have the skates of HIS life. I think Jason was what 10th after the short Four Continents The point is Brown is so far behind technically that his fate isn't really even in his hands. He's relying on other skaters screwing up. So being a decent competitor doesn't really matter. And really its a heck of a lot easier to go cleaner with his content .. I remember Brezina having clean skates.


And no they shouldn't send Farris to worlds this year.

 

[karne]

I could be wrong but, after following Josh and Jason for so many years. It was always Josh who would finish above Jason internationally. 2015 was the exception.

Not strictly true. Jason beat Josh to the JGPF title in 2011 (was it that long ago?!), and Jason beat Joshua at Nationals in 2011 and 2012. When they went Senior in 2014, Jason's initial results were better. Head-to-head as Senior internationals they are 1-1 (Josh beat Jason at 4CC 2015, Jason beat Josh at Worlds 2015).

 

[bekalc]

I actually agree that the higher placed skater at Nats should go. I'm a believer in the "single" comp rule. But only *if* they have the minimums to compete. And they don't get a pass for being injured. Vincent didn't qualify. That leaves Jason.

As I said given jasons' injury and issues. and the fact that Zhou had very little opportunity to get the minimums, I would have waited and seen what happened. I don't have a problem with looking at other results. I agree with looking at other results. I just don't think Brown's other results were much to really write home about.

And Brown's quad was deemed underrotated. So he has yet to land a clean one in competition. Zhou's just got ratified.

 

[mrrice]

What has happened to Shotaro Omori? I remember when He, along with Joshua and Jason, swept the podium at Junior Worlds in 2013.

 

[Mrs. P]

As I said earlier USFSA would have been better of saying TBA for third men's spot and seeing what happens at the most recent events. Don't see why they can't. In terms of the second spot I think all of the men had some serious questions.

The problem with taking Jason is people are acting like its some kind of safe decision when its not.

And Long term while I don't love Zhou- I do think long term he has more potential. So basically they are making a choice which may not be really the smart choice- and also losing the opportunity to give someone who has a better shot of being competitor long term-more experience.

And I do think they made a mistake with how they treated Max. I don't love Max. (And I prefer Nathan to him) But I must say I think the USFSA did a deserve making the whole argument you don't need a quad to be a complete skater. But right now you do... And I am going to say this:
Hanyu
Chen,
Chan
Fernandez,
Both Russian skaters (Russia has two right)
Denis Ten
Uno
Jin
Han Yin if he went close to clean

All of these guys if they skate well and due their content. Well it won't matter if
And I am sure there are more if Brezina were to have the skates of HIS life. I think Jason was what 10th after the short Four Continents The point is Brown is so far behind technically that his fate isn't really even in his hands. He's relying on other skaters screwing up. So being a decent competitor doesn't really matter. And really its a heck of a lot easier to go cleaner with his content .. I remember Brezina having clean skates.


And no they shouldn't send Farris to worlds this year.

But the thing is-- Worlds is still about six weeks away. Six weeks doesn't sound like a lot, but it's more than you think.

For perspective -- Golden Spin, when Vincent pulled out due to injury, was on Dec. 7-10, 2016. Nationals was exactly six weeks later and Vincent did well.

The Jason at Worlds might be completely different than the Jason at 4CC.

Anyway, I think we've reached an impasse and I really want to go running before the final groups of Pairs goes. Thanks for the discussion. We'll just have to see what happens.

 

[andromache]

Vincent or Jason...ultimately I don't think it matters too much. Vincent has promise, but he would get absolutely hosed on PCS, and rightfully so. His weaknesses would stand out so much more at Worlds. He and Nam Nguyen remind me a lot of one another, though Nam is older and really, it's a criticism of Nam that his skating reminds me of Vincent's. Was Nam pushed ahead too soon? You look at his peers, Shoma, Boyang, Nathan, and they are so far ahead of him now (and last year too) though he was 5th at senior Worlds when they were still juniors. What happened there?

 

[Tavi...]

You know, I don't even know what to say in response to some of these comments.

TontoK, I guess your old dinosaur age entitles you to be nasty about every skater who's not a potential Olympic medalist? I mean god forbid we should want three Olympic spots so that three worthy athletes can experience what it means to be an Olympian, right?

Bekalc, eighth in the world isn't anything to write home about? Really? Are you 8th best in the world at anything?

It seems to me that there's far more to life - and sport - than winning, but perhaps I'm an outlier in that respect.

 

[TontoK]

You know, I don't even know what to say in response to some of these comments.

TontoK, I guess your old dinosaur age entitles you to be nasty about every skater who's not a potential Olympic medalist? I mean god forbid we should want three Olympic spots so that three worthy athletes can experience what it means to be an Olympian, right?

Bekalc, eighth in the world isn't anything to write home about? Really? Are you 8th best in the world at anything?

It seems to me that there's far more to life - and sport - than winning, but perhaps I'm an outlier in that respect.

I don't think I've been nasty about anyone.

Well, except Urmanov, and any right-thinking person will agree with me that his videos should be pulled from the internet so that he's not inflicted on future generations.

But, other than that... I don't think I've been nasty.

And, for the record, there are plenty of skaters I enjoy whom I don't believe are Olympic caliber.

 

[bekalc]

You know, I don't even know what to say in response to some of these comments.

TontoK, I guess your old dinosaur age entitles you to be nasty about every skater who's not a potential Olympic medalist? I mean god forbid we should want three Olympic spots so that three worthy athletes can experience what it means to be an Olympian, right?

Bekalc, eighth in the world isn't anything to write home about? Really? Are you 8th best in the world at anything?

It seems to me that there's far more to life - and sport - than winning, but perhaps I'm an outlier in that respect.

Well this IS a sport. I already stated that on a personal level or note Brown should be proud of what he accomplished it's more than most men will ever dream of. But at this point is he likely to ever win a World or Olympic medal on his own? No.

The US men has a legacy of creating champions world and Olympic ones and the USFSA has a responsibility to groom the skaters most likely to achieve this.

And I think they have done a really poor job of doing this.

Because they have not been rewarding the athletic skaters and as I said earlier I get that someone like Max is not a a complete skater but Brown isn't either. I think though you can work with young skaters who have the jumps and package them/make them better presentation wise. Miki Ando is a two time world Champion/multi world medalist. Czisny is not.

USFSA said they would reward harder stuff last year but you can argue they could have put their money where there mouth was last year with Chen. The international judges rewarded him so then they hoped on the bandwagon.

 

[ice coverage]

I actually agree that the higher placed skater at Nats should go. I'm a believer in the "single" comp rule. But only *if* they have the minimums to compete. And they don't get a pass for being injured. Vincent didn't qualify. That leaves Jason.

To be fair, it's not unprecedented for a skater who didn't have minimum to be sent to a post-Nationals senior B to get minimums. Tyler Pierce went to Bavarian cause she didn't have junior-level PCS for Jr. Worlds (she had been doing senior comps the whole season).

On the other hand, I don't recall any senior-level skaters being sent to senior Bs to qualify for Worlds...

Reminder that this season is the first one for the new ISU rule that scores from Junior comps do not count toward TES minimums for Senior ISU Championships.

Vincent already would have had the TES mininums for Senior Worlds if his Junior scores could be counted -- as would have been kosher in past seasons.
He would not have needed to compete at the Bavarian Open.

(I do not have a problem with Jason going to Worlds. But I want this discussion to be fair to Vincent too.)

---

I think a third spot would be cool even if the person who gets it is not a serious factor for the podium. ...

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

 

[bekalc]

I don't mind the minimum requirements but I think Juniors should count

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

When Chen's fans act like he's some kind of new god and all the other US men (except Vincent, of course!!!) should just be thrown on the trash heap, particularly when Chen is getting some spectacularly free passes for stuff Max got crapped on for for years, then yeah, I'll take exception to it.

I feel like Nathan makes a sincere attempt to interpret the music he is skating to, whereas I always felt like Max looked uncomfortable expressing an artistic point of view.

 

[kalee]

Oh, don't be such a Gloomy Gus. Go Karen! Go Mariah! If one of them gets ninth and Ashley gets fourth, there you go!

Ashley being 4th is the biggie... not impossible, but it really requires a confluence of multiple factors:
- Beating Kostner straight-out on technical content and holding her own on the PCS battle
- Kaetlyn making multiple mistakes thus slipping out of podium contention
- At least one of Satoko, Pogorilaya, and Sotskova bombing

That's a pretty high price to pay... #JusticeforPogo
Though must say, either of Karen / Mariah being 9th is plausible... #prayforcleanskates

 

[ice coverage]

I feel like Nathan makes a sincere attempt to interpret the music he is skating to, whereas I always felt like Max looked uncomfortable expressing an artistic point of view.

Disagree completely about Max. He too makes a sincere attempt to interpret the music he is skating to. In my strong opinion.