US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Mathman]

I don't think Jason is going to get 9.5 in components without a quad.

Let me try this again. The question is not whether Jason can beat Yuzuru Hanyu, Nathan Chen, etc. With or without a quad the answer is no.

The question is whether Jason attempting a quad can score higher than Jason not attempting a quad. He just got mid-eights in PCS for a program that had several mistakes. If he skated perfectly wow I do not see why he couldn't get low nines for his skating skills and performance values. I continue to think that this is the best strategy for Jason.

As for making the Olympic team next year (ahead of Vincent Zhou who just landed a clean quad Lutz in competition for the first time), well, I don't see how Jason stumbling on a quad toe attempt is going to help his prospects.

(Although I have to admit that it did wonders for Grant Hochstein, so what do I know?)

 

[GGFan]

So Karen just posted on ig that she had boot problems this week. Whatever the issue it needs fixed asap or her alternates need to be training hardcore! Bootproblems have been her nemesis as well as a huge issue with polina. If I were Gracie or mirai I could continue training because it seems when boot issues start they don't always resolve quickly.

Athletes need to be very careful toeing the line between explanations and excuses. Karen may very well have legitimate boot problems but everything is contextual. History tells us that it's very difficult to tell what percentage of bad performances have to do with equipment, training, confidence issues, etc. I would put this in the category of keep it to yourself because the general idea in sports is that everyone is struggling with injury and equipment problems so either you have a doctor's note (e.g. you have an injury or other issue that prevents you from competing) or you're making an excuse.

 

[princessalica]

But if there is an issue impacting her skating then she needs to get it taken care of or not skate. If its fixed, great, skate and I hope she skates like Nationals, but if something is preventing her from skating to the level she needs she needs to withdraw and let someone else take her place. It could very end up being a choice which could make or break her chances of the Olympics.

 

[TontoK]

On this we can agree.

Whatever their problems, once they step onto the competition ice, they have to own the performance.

If she felt her health or equipment problems were too big to compete, then she should have withdrawn.

 

[Mathman]

Athletes need to be very careful toeing the line between explanations and excuses.

"I have a lot of work to do before Worlds."

"I just want to skate and have fun."

"I am so grateful to the fans for all their support."

"This was a learning experience for me."

I give all these to Karen, free of charge . (Since my girl Michelle Kwan doesn't need them any more. )

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

But if there is an issue impacting her skating then she needs to get it taken care of or not skate. If its fixed, great, skate and I hope she skates like Nationals, but if something is preventing her from skating to the level she needs she needs to withdraw and let someone else take her place. It could very end up being a choice which could make or break her chances of the Olympics.

I agree. I think the best case scenario going forward would have been to keep it private, but notify the USFS and Mirai that she was having real equipment issues that may affect her ability to perform optimally, and do the best she can to work on those issues. Tammy should be guiding her better. I know Karen wants more than anything to skate at Worlds, and it's her career and life/time/money she's investing in it, but if her boot issues are affecting her to the point where she's citing them as reasons that are preventing her from competing at 100%, then she really needs to reconsider whether it'd be best if she can skate at Worlds as spots are on the line and the last thing she needs to do is bomb at Worlds for a multitude of reasons including her standing going into Pyeongchang.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Boot Problems

I hope she gets it solved. I want to see her show up to Worlds and knock one out of the park. I see much potential with this one:yes:

 

[GGFan]

"I have a lot of work to do before Worlds."

"I just want to skate and have fun."

"I am so grateful to the fans for all their support."

"This was a learning experience for me."

I give all these to Karen, free of charge . (Since my girl Michelle Kwan doesn't need them any more. )

Michelle was expert at this. The best part is that you knew she was competitive as hell. She was just ok at the GPF and all of a sudden at Nationals she would show up ripped and land every jump.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Kwan is a good example. I know Christine Brennan wrote a bit about Kwan's boot issues in the 1996-1997 season, but Kwan seemed to put more of the blame on her mental game (especially during the season) and the press went with her body changing and puberty (which Kwan admitted embarrassed her as she was 16 and people were talking about her body). It wasn't until I watched TSL's interview with Frank Carroll where I realized just how severe that boot issue actually was. It really affected her balance and weight distribution and made everything, including her inside spirals and jump landings shaky and off. But at the time, nobody knew about the extent of Kwan's boot problems. She just publicly stated her bad performances were all on her and her mental state and nothing else.

 

[chuckm]

Karen has had "boot problems" ever since she finished 3rd at 2015 Nationals and went on to finish 8th at 2015 JW.

 

[GGFan]

Karen has had "boot problems" ever since she finished 3rd at 2015 Nationals and went on to finish 8th at 2015 JW.

Yup. At this point we all know that even if the dog actually ate your homework (and you have witnesses) nobody wants to hear that.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I think Karen should have kept quiet about it. Not to say her issues weren't real as I'm sure they are, but it's just going to open a can of worms to the people she's communicating to (namely skating fans on the Internet). It would have been better for her to lay low and work on it quietly while practicing and trying to build up her confidence going into Helsinki. She doesn't need to address every criticism coming toward her way. Tammy should be teaching her that.

Athletes need to be very careful toeing the line between explanations and excuses. Karen may very well have legitimate boot problems but everything is contextual. History tells us that it's very difficult to tell what percentage of bad performances have to do with equipment, training, confidence issues, etc. I would put this in the category of keep it to yourself because the general idea in sports is that everyone is struggling with injury and equipment problems so either you have a doctor's note (e.g. you have an injury or other issue that prevents you from competing) or you're making an excuse.

Yes... sometimes even the truth is better left unsaid. Boot problems have such a reputation at this point that I don't think you should publicly cite boot problems unless you are supply pictures of the problem (i.e. Mirai's town boots last year, we saw the problem, we knew it was real). It just does not help.

Yes tell your coach and USFSA... but not instagram.

 

[skatinggold]

Is it really a boot problem or mental problem. She didn't have any boot problems when she won Nationals. Someone else said she had the flu? So what's the deal now? If she can't compete, she should let Mirai replace her for Worlds.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Is it really a boot problem or mental problem. She didn't have any boot problems when she won Nationals. Someone else said she had the flu? So what's the deal now? If she can't compete, she should let Mirai replace her for Worlds.

She said in a recent interview with The Skating Lesson that the boots she was used to went out of business/were sold off, or otherwise were not being made/sold or otherwise available. So there is some legitimacy to that and I can see some struggle to find a replacement, but there comes a point it seems you need to accept what your options are and pick the best one and adapt to it, rather than keep chasing the perfect pair of boots.

 

[slider11]

I don't think Jason is going to get 9.5 in components without a quad. Why would the judges reward him with that when others like Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan/Ten/(when on) Shoma when are doing gorgeous skating with quads. The quad takes a lot of energy and I think the judges would consider it when rewarding things like overall performance.

And they frankly should just like they should if a lady comes with a nice performance quality but only doubles)

I mean think about it. Hanyu does an amazing transition into a quad loop. Jason does a transition into a 3 loop who should get the higher transition score?

This does. not mean Jason should not get good PCS. Laura Lepisto got good PCS. But Lepisto never got Kim or Asada PCS.

I don't get this. Why shouldn't a skater get strong components without a quad? If fantastic skating, transitions, choreography, interpretation and perfomance are shown along with difficult content that includes triple axles and other difficult combinations and outstanding spins that all actually blend with the music -why shouldn't they get 9.5s+ on the PC-side? I agree the technical wizards should be rewarded on the technical side but give the same focus and reward on the performance componets.

 

[Eislauf]

Zhou is a new Senior who was injured earlier this year.

I never said I would for sure send Zhou. I said I would wait and see what happens at other Four Continents/Bavarian Open/Junior Worlds.

And Zhou just got his Quad Sal ratified at Bavarian Open. Has a higher score in the short than Jason got at Four Continents both had mistakes but Zhou's higher content mattered.

Has Jason ever landed a quad in Senior competition-no.

As for the Jason has always been behind. Once again Jason has accomplished more in his career than most do in a life time. Fourth in the World once. National Champion, Olympic Team. But he's not improving technically in the way he needs to....

This isn't just about the Olympic team its also about investing in the future, and in folks who have legitimate shot at putting out content that will be competitive and giving them opportunities.

Not to mention Jason Brown is not in good shape, is overcoming injury. He's someone who has little room for error-due to his lack of jumping content. So-that matters. And if he is not in the top groups-his PCS will suffer.


All of this is why I would have waited to see how both men performed at their later events and then made a decision. Essentially I feel USFSA is taking a gamble on an injured skater who has little to no room for error.

Once again eighth-might happen but he could finish very much lower.

Plus Jason's 4th place finish at 2015 World's was 20 points behind the 3rd place finisher, and at 4CC this year, his 6th place finish was 22 pts behind Boyang Jin in 5th. Plenty of room to slot in other skaters.

Plus, Jason isn't "6th in the world", as some might mistakenly claim, he's 6th at 4CC without Javi, Denis Ten and the Russians.

I do think Jason can get into the top 10 at World's, and hope he does.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't get this. Why shouldn't a skater get strong components without a quad? If fantastic skating, transitions, choreography, interpretation and perfomance are shown along with difficult content that includes triple axles and other difficult combinations and outstanding spins that all actually blend with the music -why shouldn't they get 9.5s+ on the PC-side? I agree the technical wizards should be rewarded on the technical side but give the same focus and reward on the performance componets.

I think psychologically -- and perhaps rightfully so -- it's hard for judges to justify giving 9s to a skater with less difficult content.

I think a U.S. judge even told Kori when Jason was starting out as a senior domestically that the judges wouldn't go all out on PCS -- even if he met the bullet points -- until he got the 3A.

ETA: Jason did talk about why they took out the quad in the GS recap:

“Kori (Ade, coach) said that going to this event was like building a house,” explained the 22-year-old. “The pieces from what I did at nationals are building up to what I will do at the World championships. Today the quad wasn’t ready, so we built up a different part of the house. We built up the rest of the program around the decision to take it out and focused on making the most out of the other points I could get. It’s a decision that we made today. Because of my leg injury, I couldn’t start doing them (quad toes) again until this week. My hope was that it would be ready to put in the program, but unfortunately it wasn’t at the point where it was worth doing under the circumstances.”

In any case, it clear that Jason wants the quad back in. It sounds like he even wanted to attempt it here, but Kori decided against it. And honestly it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

[karne]

In any case, it clear that Jason wants the quad back in. It sounds like he even wanted to attempt it here, but Kori decided against it. And honestly it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Exactly. He didn't do the quad here, people are whinging about it. If he did the quad and fell, people would have whinged about it.

 

[Eislauf]

Exactly. He didn't do the quad here, people are whinging about it. If he did the quad and fell, people would have whinged about it.

That's a bit of a binary assumption you're making. I think, and others may agree, that if he had tried the quad and fell, it would have been a positive sign that his fracture has at least healed to the point where he can attempt the quad, regardless of whether he falls or not.

 

[andromache]

Lots of people suddenly encouraging Karen to withdraw because of her boot problems....

Anyway, I believe boot problems were supposedly the issue during GP this season? So the issues were resolved at Nationals, and now they've reappeared?

Whatever the case, Tammy and/or USFS should be handling the issue. But Tammy Gambill has had so many skaters with so much potential who have just never worked out well internationally as seniors (Shotaro Omori, Caroline Zhang, Ricky Dornbush, Hannah Miller, Tyler Pierce) so I really just worry about her skaters in general. But maybe Vincent will have better luck, or at least Tammy's experience with Karen this season may help Tammy with Vincent, should he end up going to Worlds in the future.