The abhorrent state of PCS judging | Page 7 | Golden Skate

The abhorrent state of PCS judging

I don't think it is always intentional. To some degree, you have to be on the judges' radar to be a contender. When Denis won the WSM, he came in with 6th and 9th place GP results and 12th at 4CC, so he was only a 2nd tier skater because his previous competition performances were relatively weak. When someone who normally doesn't skate brilliantly all of a sudden does, it can be difficult for the judge to mark the skater because he probably hasn't given a lot of thought to what PCS scores he might assign to the skater if clean.

I think it also depends on the prestige of the competition and attention from the public. I don't think the result at WC2013 men's competition will happen at the Olympics when the whole world is watching, even if Ten gave no good performance before the Olympics.

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ETA: I personally think the controversial results happening at the Olympics are in fact the least controversial of all because most (if not all) of them are close wins, that could've gone either way. Judges are much more conscious of their behavior when they are under the spotlight of the Olympics. The controversial results at competitions outside of the Olympics are far more controversial than Olympics results. But since the Olympics receive the most attention from the press and the public, more people remember the Olympics controversies.
 
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Same thing happened in pairs where S/Z and V/T used to get at least 6 points PCS advantage over very slightly worse skaters like S/S, but now S/H at their best can only get about 2 points PCS over a clean D/R. The artistic difference between V/T and S/S was miniscule compared to the difference between S/H and D/R now.

Well I totally agree that V/T did not deserve the PCS gap the got in 2014. S/S skating was amazing. Olympics were helt in Russia. Unbelieveable how judges can be influenced. V/T got a plenty of 10.00 for an easy-choreographed FS with three little mistakes.

But I do not agree with S/H this days. Their PCS gap to D/R at 4CC was 6 points in the Free. This was quite fair. D/R are where they belong: At an average of 8.50 PCS. S/H skating skills and connection is very good. They shine. But their music und choreographic style can ometimes be a bit empty and somtimes boring.
 
But I do not agree with S/H this days. Their PCS gap to D/R at 4CC was 6 points in the Free. This was quite fair. D/R are where they belong: At an average of 8.50 PCS. S/H skating skills and connection is very good. They shine. But their music und choreographic style can ometimes be a bit empty and somtimes boring.

Got to disagree here - I think their choreography and overall style is amazing in both programs, and they seem to improve in that regard every season. I think the men won last season in terms of overall program quality between the disciplines; I think the pairs win this year. J/C, S/M, and S/H are truly outstanding, while Stolbova/Klimov are also fairly good. I have no idea how these teams will top themselves next year.
 
Maybe I missed it, but when did PCS change choreography to composition and interpretation to interpretation of the music?
 
If a Chen's PCS is inflated, so is Hanyu's. The six point spread between Chen and Hanyu seems a little close, but make it nine points and Nathan still wins. If people are upset with Nathan's win, they should be upset with TES values, not PCS.
 
If a Chen's PCS is inflated, so is Hanyu's. The six point spread between Chen and Hanyu seems a little close, but make it nine points and Nathan still wins. If people are upset with Nathan's win, they should be upset with TES values, not PCS.

As said before several times: it isn't about Nathan not deserving to win, but about his scores not matching what he's putting out on the ice (at least for the majority of complains). Two different things.
And no, people should not be upset about 'TES values' (I will assume you mean BV here) when they think the judges didn't handle GOE and PCS right. Sorry, but I don't see logic in that at all?
 
Well I totally agree that V/T did not deserve the PCS gap the got in 2014. S/S skating was amazing. Olympics were helt in Russia. Unbelieveable how judges can be influenced. V/T got a plenty of 10.00 for an easy-choreographed FS with three little mistakes.

But I do not agree with S/H this days. Their PCS gap to D/R at 4CC was 6 points in the Free. This was quite fair. D/R are where they belong: At an average of 8.50 PCS. S/H skating skills and connection is very good. They shine. But their music und choreographic style can ometimes be a bit empty and somtimes boring.

Sui/Han's choreography in their free skate is more nuanced than their short program (this has been true both this season and last season)...they have lots of amazing choreographically wonderful lifts and transitions in the short while the free is more subtle, with more individual movements and steps that flow...I prefer their short but both are amazing. The only team that matches or surpasses Sui/Han in choreo is Savchenko/Massot, when they are on. PCS wise, when clean I do believe Sui/Han and Savchenko/Massot as well as Stolbova/Kilmov deserve a BIG gap (0.5-1 point for each component) over skaters like Tarasova/Morosov, Yu/Zhang, James/Cipres, and particularly Duhamel/Radford, who have very lacking choreo in their FS, IMO.
 
As said before several times: it isn't about Nathan not deserving to win, but about his scores not matching what he's putting out on the ice (at least for the majority of complains). Two different things.
And no, people should not be upset about 'TES values' (I will assume you mean BV here) when they think the judges didn't handle GOE and PCS right. Sorry, but I don't see logic in that at all?

Everyone's scores are inflated. And I don't think there were be much discussion of Nathan's PCS if Hanyu had won.
 
Everyone's scores are inflated. And I don't think there were be much discussion of Nathan's PCS if Hanyu had won.

Misha Ges PCS are inflated? I'd agree that most skaters PCS are inflated, but the problem is it is not to the same degree.
Was Hanyu then also at nationals, where Nathans scores got criticized by many already?
 
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These issues make PCS irrelevant in ranking and development of skaters. This has been evident currently and is strongly indicated to continue. I think skating fans are expressing grave concerns because it diminishes, even destroys, the big draw of figure skating and points to an even more exaggerated imbalance and the demise of artistry and entertainment value of this unique sport.

Yes, this is the most important thing to consider. When aspects of the sport are being scored incorrectly, it affects everything in terms of how people skate and develop. Even if we can say the results of a competition are correct, that doesn't mean the skating is as it should be. Of course, many competition results end up being wrong because of these issues too.

To BoP and those insisting that Nathan's PCS is inflated, I am saying it again: Don't lie to yourself thinking you are better than the 9 trained judges on the panel.

You present a claim of the judges, and the scoring system, being infallible. After the countless examples of how far from the truth this is, your position can only be labelled as delusion. There are many informed and skilled people who understand the sport (often better than the judges and less prone to political influence in addition), who aren't sitting on the panel at a competition and who don't have to agree with the current rules of the scoring system to begin with. Everyone is supposed to learn at a young age, from the children's novel "Charlotte's Web" for example, not to believe something just because it is written down. Give some actual reasoning, because this tired rhetoric of "the judges are right and don't question it" does not hold any water.
 
There are many informed and skilled people who understand the sport (often better than the judges and less prone to political influence in addition), who aren't sitting on the panel at a competition and who don't have to agree with the current rules of the scoring system to begin with.

Are you saying the rules as they are written are wrong, or that they are not being followed? I think a lot of times I'm not able to follow your logic (and I'd like to understand your positions better) because you tend to argue events are being judged wrong under they way you think the rules should be. There's bad judging and there's bad rules, but I think it's important to distinguish the two because they are the result of different motivations.
 
Also, if we believe that the rules should be adjusted to better match our understanding of good skating and good evaluation practices, that doesn't mean we necessarily believe that the current rules are worthless -- just that they could be improved.

And if we accept the current rules as is, for practical purposes anyway, even if we disagree, perhaps strongly, with the specific scores given by many of the judges on the panels, that doesn't mean we necessarily believe that the scores we would have given under the current rules are the only correct ones and all judges we disagree with did a bad job of applying the rules. The current rules allow for some degree of difference of opinion. Good judges -- and fans with good knowledge and good judgment -- can apply the rules correctly according to their own perceptions and understandings and come up with different results.

I think this is inevitable because so much of what is being judged is qualitative not yes/no answers, and because in most cases a number of different evaluations go into arriving at each individual score.

That was of course even more the case when each judge gave only 2 scores per program. But even with up to 18 scores per program from each judge, there are multiple criteria to consider for each of those numbers. Disagreements between competent, well-intentioned evaluators are inevitable and often more a good thing than a bad thing. No individual is going to notice every possible criterion and give them all equal weight. It's fairest to the skaters to have multiple opinions factored into their final scores.
 
Are you saying the rules as they are written are wrong, or that they are not being followed? I think a lot of times I'm not able to follow your logic (and I'd like to understand your positions better) because you tend to argue events are being judged wrong under they way you think the rules should be. There's bad judging and there's bad rules, but I think it's important to distinguish the two because they are the result of different motivations.

It's always the same thing. Bop has his scoring system all worked out and judges all competions on his scoring system and if the real scoring system doesn't conform than the result will be attacked! Sure his system now is a version of IJS but it's his own version and it's not the one in effect. It is not just that the judges are using IJS wrong but also not using his version.
 
Are you saying the rules as they are written are wrong, or that they are not being followed? I think a lot of times I'm not able to follow your logic (and I'd like to understand your positions better) because you tend to argue events are being judged wrong under they way you think the rules should be. There's bad judging and there's bad rules, but I think it's important to distinguish the two because they are the result of different motivations.

I think some of those "rules" that Blades of Passion suggests are unwritten or less known, just like you have legal rules and extensive interpretations of it that you can't find in your law book. I am convinced that judges use their own criterions too. For example consistent skaters tend to get higher PCS marks regardless of their actual performance. I doubt he meant ''rules itself'' as they're written down - judges have their own standards and are influenced too - probably even more than we assume. For example bullets points vs GOE thing.
 
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Are you saying the rules as they are written are wrong, or that they are not being followed? I think a lot of times I'm not able to follow your logic (and I'd like to understand your positions better) because you tend to argue events are being judged wrong under they way you think the rules should be. There's bad judging and there's bad rules, but I think it's important to distinguish the two because they are the result of different motivations.

The RULES of figure skating as it stands don't explain the details of figure skating in the first place! This is part of the problem! The judges ARE left to their own accord in many respects and thus it comes down entirely to an understanding of the sport that is nowhere to be found in the rule book. This is compounded by the problem of judges lacking a mathematical understanding of what their scores really mean. Skating is now determined by math. Everything has a value. So how do you properly assess the value of something you don't know how to add up in the first place? It's like telling someone to fill a bag of oranges to weigh the same as a bag of potatoes, without ever telling them how much the bag of potatoes weighs in the first place. So they just guesstimate how many oranges should go in the bag and in the end the result is who knows what.

The details of skating are known and passed down through communal understanding. You can take people like Dick Button and have them explain these things that are nowhere to be found (at least not with much specificity or importance) in the rulebook. Qualities like posture, foot placement, arm usage, the form of a spin, musicality, the effectiveness of a footwork sequence, the character of a program, exactly how bad a jump landing is, the importance of extension, depth of edge, timing of crossovers. All of these things used to be valued and were directly awarded in "the second mark", in way that was immediately "make or break". You either tried to give the best performance possible with respect to what excited an audience or moved them or created a pleasing look on the ice, or else you lost the second mark and thus probably lost the competition since it was the tie-breaking score.

We as learned spectators can look at performances in front of us and objectively try to compare and quantify these different aspects. We KNOW and AGREE, based upon DECADES of skating knowledge and what the general universal standard has always been, that something like falling on a jump should be a big loss in points. Yet, in the scoring system we have, it often isn't that much. If someone falls on a Quad Lutz attempt these days they still get as many points as a satisfactory Triple Axel. If someone gives a poor performance or has a program of very lacking choreography, we know they should take a big hit in their "second mark", the PCS these days. Yet that is generally not the case. People just get relatively set scores, based upon their reputation, and the judges knocking the overall PCS down by 1 or 2 points for a bad performance (or bumping the PCS up 1 or 2 points for an amazing performance) ultimately has no real effect at all. The technical score matters WAY more than those 1 or 2 points, so actually a jump being called as underrotated or not matters more in the the current system than the ENTIRE program. The ENTIRE program!

Think about it! 1 degree of rotation missing in a jump these days can make a bigger difference than 4 minutes of how a skater moved their body and used their blades and performed to an audience. The difficulty and effectiveness of that choreography/interpretation and the energy and skill it took to perform it across an entire program matters less than one jump being seen as slightly underrotated. The PCS still do "make a difference", in that it's an amount of points on the table, but the way they are awarded has very little relation to all of the qualities that SHOULD be getting rewarded. Someone landing a bunch of quads and having a requisite amount of transitions and speed and overall packaging is now automatically synonymous with "high PCS". There is no real differential in how the details and artistic success of the performances are scored, the things that make people care about figure skating the most.
 
I was talking to someone in my life recently who gets a lot of what goes on in skating, having seen bits and pieces of it through the years. We were kinda discussing how to score some of the artistic skaters who spend a lot of time working on their footwork. Patrick does amazing things on the ice beyond his competitors but there is little reward.

His suggestion was to offer more points for really well done steps sguences and perfectly executed elements. Sort of raising the celing on what can be achieved, and offering more points for the details. There are clear guidelines as to what a level 4 step sequence can be but maybe giving more out and scoring steps as detailed as ice dance does might help balance the tech required for jumps and spins to the beautiful skating skills.

It was just an interesting in person disucssion I had. I haven't kept up too much with the thread so I don't really know how much this actually adds to the discussion.
 
The PCS still do "make a difference", in that it's an amount of points on the table, but the way they are awarded has very little relation to all of the qualities that SHOULD be getting rewarded. Someone landing a bunch of quads and having a requisite amount of transitions and speed and overall packaging is now automatically synonymous with "high PCS".

I think this was the case under 6.0, too. People like Surya and Elvis would get very high artistic marks during the peaks of their career solely on the basis of technical ability. In some ways, the judges have to compensate technical achievement in PCS. We've discussed how difficult combinations are not rewarded under the judging system; if someone does two 3/3's, she could easily end up with a lower BV than others because her program contains two low-valued 3Ts. The only way to reward that difficulty, at the moment, is through PCS, but maybe the judges have gotten a bit carried away with this practice.
 
I bet if you asked a bunch of judges, or a bunch of skaters or coaches or devoted fans, to list the 10 most important qualities that should be rewarded in a figure skating performance, in order, very few lists would be identical.

There's a lot more agreement on what's good vs. mediocre than there is on how to value different kinds of goodness in relation to each other.

I.e., we may agree on what "should" be rewarded but not so much on what should be rewarded more than something else that also should be rewarded.

And even if there were an officially agreed-on hierarchy of values, the degrees would vary between skaters at any given competition -- even between the same two skaters with opposite strengths and weaknesses each different time they meet. So judges might need to decide at each competition who to reward more this time.

Suppose all judges (and skaters and coaches and fans) agree that quality is more important than difficulty. (Or vice versa.) But how much better does the quality need to be in order to outweigh a significant difference in difficulty? And how do you compare a performance with high-quality very difficult jumps but average everything else vs. one with high-quality easier jumps and good-to-great everything else?

Etc. etc. There are always going to be judgment calls and there are always going to be disagreements among honest competent experts.
 
Etc. etc. There are always going to be judgment calls and there are always going to be disagreements among honest competent experts.

It all would matter only when podiums are "incorrect" or there are arguments about placements that matter: to get from SP to LP or to get country spots. Outside that who cares? Sochi was controversial, yes. I rewatched it recently and I would have a different podium: Caro-Adelina-Yuna. But that's a heated thing so let's stop at that. But other than that the only major "injustice" in ladies' podiums I can remember is Anna's 4th place in Saitama and Anna's 3rd place in Boston. And, yes, she was held on pcs. But does it call for the revolution? Don't think so.
 
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