The abhorrent state of PCS judging

[drivingmissdaisy]

But other than that the only major "injustice" in ladies' podiums I can remember is Anna's 4th place in Saitama and Anna's 3rd place in Boston. And, yes, she was held on pcs. But does it call for the revolution? Don't think so.

For Anna it does

Seriously though, the judges are human and a lot of things impact the scores. An audience reaction can help (or hurt) scores. A clean program may have looked to have been performed well because it lacked major errors, and unrelated measures like SS and TR often rise with that performance mark. As long as we have humans judging, these things will happen. Obviously, scores can be impacted by cheating but too often we have people claiming "X skater should have won (or medaled) and since they didn't, there was cheating," then proceed to post very weak evidence of the so-called score manipulation. Cheating can be hard to prove, but I think when someone alleges it, they have to present rock-solid, indisputable proof. Otherwise, we have a situation in which even slightly controversial decisions are tarnished with allegations.

 

[OS]

It all would matter only when podiums are "incorrect" or there are arguments about placements that matter: to get from SP to LP or to get country spots. Outside that who cares? Sochi was controversial, yes. I rewatched it recently and I would have a different podium: Caro-Adelina-Yuna. But that's a heated thing so let's stop at that. But other than that the only major "injustice" in ladies' podiums I can remember is Anna's 4th place in Saitama and Anna's 3rd place in Boston. And, yes, she was held on pcs. But does it call for the revolution? Don't think so.

Hilarious and delusional. One of the many reasons why nationalism should have no place on the judging panel. Just like religion, race or poor tastes. Poor judging always leads to innocent skaters get punished like a hit and run accident, but why can't judges be punished for poor judging, or even worse cheated judging? No skater should have to compete against an entire national federation.

In fact, they should just dissolve national federations judges all together as it is supposed to be an individual sport. The whole infrastructure needs to be reassessed and revolutionised.

The politics is positively feudal and the decaying has been poisonous. Science needs updating, where real-time sporting physics need to be assessed with real accountability, not just how it looks to someone 'subjectively'. If skater skate/spin the fastest, traveled the longest, demonstrated the deepest edges, jump the highest, the longest, has the best musical movements, they should be measured, recorded and referenced as a mark of quality. Or certainly these information should be made to the judges as reference points.

Beside that point accumulating stats on the top left corner of the screen that goes up and down. There should also be a plotted histogram graph to account for past scores, past performances (including jumps, bigger or smaller than before etc) to indicate if the skater did better than before or worse, in comparison to the leader's scoring trends. This can also helps keeping an eye on score inflation. Degree of quality, accuracy in improvements need to be measured and count for something.

 

[Sugiady]

Hilarious and delusional. One of the many reasons why nationalism should have no place on the judging panel. Just like religion, race or poor tastes. Poor judging always leads to innocent skaters get punished like a hit and run accident, but why can't judges be punished for poor judging, or even worse cheated judging? No skater should have to compete against an entire national federation.

In fact, they should just dissolve national federations judges all together as it is supposed to be an individual sport. The whole infrastructure needs to be reassessed and revolutionised.

The politics is positively feudal and the decaying has been poisonous. Science needs updating, where real-time sporting physics need to be assessed with real accountability, not just how it looks to someone 'subjectively'. If skater skate/spin the fastest, traveled the longest, demonstrated the deepest edges, jump the highest, the longest, has the best musical movements, they should be measured, recorded and referenced as a mark of quality. Or certainly these information should be made to the judges as reference points.

Beside that point accumulating stats on the top left corner of the screen that goes up and down. There should also be a plotted histogram graph to account for past scores, past performances (including jumps, bigger or smaller than before etc) to indicate if the skater did better than before or worse, in comparison to the leader's scoring trends. This can also helps keeping an eye on score inflation. Degree of quality, accuracy in improvements need to be measured and count for something.

I agree.

But, who will pay for all that cost?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

There needs to be a "happy/sad feelings" button the judges push throughout a program and the timing of the "feelings button" in relation to the timing of the tech panels calls could formulate a scientific PCS score.

 

[OS]

I agree.

But, who will pay for all that cost?

Free market capitalism like any profession. At the elite level, best judges should be paid. They can be assessed by peer post competition to collect their brownie points. They should be paid by IOC/ISU, it is not like IOC don't have the money.

 

[Sugiady]

Free market capitalism like any profession. At the elite level, best judges should be paid. They can be assessed by peer post competition to collect their brownie points. They should be paid by IOC/ISU, it is not like IOC don't have the money.

No. We are talking about HUGE amount of money.
You will need new computer program for video analysis, hardware facilities in the venue for providing data and image into the system. And salary for best and professional judges.
The figure skating market is getting smaller year by year. Free market capitalism cannot save it.

 

[OS]

No. We are talking about HUGE amount of money.
You will need new computer program for video analysis, hardware facilities in the venue for providing data and image into the system. And salary for best and professional judges.
The figure skating market is getting smaller year by year. Free market capitalism cannot save it.

Chicken and Egg situation. The reason it is getting smaller is because of ill reputation of the sport where one can practically guess the result before anyone has to compete. It is also farcical in how anti-global it is. It might as well be called 4 nations + friends.

If people truly believe PCS can also win the sport, I bet you we will get more thoughtful dynamic interesting unique programs, better care and attention to 'choreographic performance'. Without quality, why should people watch? How can you convince them?

 

[Sugiady]

Chicken and Egg situation. The reason it is getting smaller is because of ill reputation and you can practically call the result before anyone has to compete.

If people truly believe PCS can also win the sport, I bet you we will get more thoughtful dynamic interesting unique programs, better care and attention to 'choreographic performance'. Without quality, why should people watch? How can you convince them?

So back to the problems. If the free marketing cannot give money to save the pcs system, who else can to that?
Maybe we need a low-cost plan first.

 

[OS]

So back to the problems. If the free marketing cannot give money to save the pcs system, who else can to that?
Maybe we need a low-cost plan first.

Baby steps first...we already got rid of anonymous judging. Rome wasn't built in a day. The sport need to attract arts interest, then sponsorship will come.

 

[Sugiady]

Baby steps first...we already got rid of anonymous judging. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Rome can be robbed in a day.
It's always hard to get better but easier to get worse.:con3:

 

[gladiolusc]

Baby steps first...we already got rid of anonymous judging. Rome wasn't built in a day. The sport need to attract arts interest, then sponsorship will come.

The interesting thing is I'm not sure anonymous judging ended up making much difference. National biases still clearly exists, and being able to name a Ms Lorrie Parker for giving some unreasonable GOE for an element, etc etc, doesn't seem to do much.

Also, people affiliated with/ have worked for/ still working for national federations definitely shouldn't be judging. That one's just heinous.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Also, people affiliated with/ have worked for/ still working for national federations definitely shouldn't be judging. That one's just heinous.

Why? Any judge is going to be in cahoots with their federation.

 

[mrrice]

Why? Any judge is going to be in cahoots with their federation.

Exactly! All Judges have to start somewhere. There is a huge rivalry between the Jazz Dance Judges on the East and West Coasts. Here in Ca. even the Northern California Band Association N.C.B.A. Judges are trained by a completely different set of guidelines and the rule books, though similar, are not the same. In Central, Ca. most of our shows are done by the Western Band Association or W.B.A. In Southern Ca. They have the S.C.S.B.O.A. The "Southern California Schools Band Orchestra Association. Which has a completely different style of training because you need to have knowledge of string and other instruments that you don't always see on the football field or in a Parade.
I hope that made sense.

Getting on to skaters. I have always said that you have to see an event in person to really understand a skater from a PCS standpoint. Skating is a sport where your eyes are about 75% and your ears, 25%. The judges do not sit up where the camera's are and that makes a huge difference. I haven't seen enough of the current skaters in person, I'll fix that next year in San Jose but, those of you who have been to live events know how much different the skaters look and sound when you see them up close..

Next year, one of the Men I have seen several times in person will be returning in the form of Joshua Farris. Now, if you had asked me in 2012 to pick 2 skaters who I thought would have made the US podium by now. I would have said Angela Wang and Shotaro Omori. I have seen both of these skaters deliver spectacular programs when they were Juniors and I thought they'd both be vying for the title by now. They're still young enough and I hope they stay hungry and engaged until they reach their goals.

 

[Moment]

caro-adelina-yuna.

ROFLd

 

[OS]

The interesting thing is I'm not sure anonymous judging ended up making much difference. National biases still clearly exists, and being able to name a Ms Lorrie Parker for giving some unreasonable GOE for an element, etc etc, doesn't seem to do much.

Also, people affiliated with/ have worked for/ still working for national federations definitely shouldn't be judging. That one's just heinous.

They exist, but at least NOW people can't deny the fact they exist vs all the natters on this board about the judges is always right. Vs us plebs who should just sit back and agree with everything - unthinking unseeing, untrusting with our own independent minds.

In any court of law, judging panels are supposed to be vetted for impartiality, and poor judging can be challenged and overturned. Just not in this sport, because ISU federations are the lawmakers. At the highest level with the highest stake, federation judges are practically encouraged to be biased to counter other biases, survival of the fittest. Looking at the scoring trends, it became a rival of nations and skaters are just pawns. PCS has become the most accurate indicator of political interest, rather then performance itself. People look at why 'some' skaters score goes so high suddenly and rarely comes down, and trying to figure out from their performances, vs some skaters just can't get a break, no matter how well they do, you just need to step back and look at the big picture, then it totally make sense. It is tragic.

For every Alla Shekhovtseva (famous Russian nationalist judge in Ice Dance, ALSO Adelina's personal judge for the whole Olympic year, judged her at EVERY SINGLE one of her event, how is THIS not strategic?!), there's going to be a counter equivalent, like the American judge who recently put Virtue and Moir behind the 3 American team at 4CCs should absolutely be called out on it. Now likely being sent to judge WC because he/she can be trusted to make America great again.

 

[Ares]

Why? Any judge is going to be in cahoots with their federation.

But why it should be so? It is detrimental and off-putting. I don't think it should be all that difficult to find / train new unaffiliated judges. There is need for new, younger, unprejudiced and bias - agenda free / uncorrupted judges - I am convinced that many were also around in 6.0 system and behind making fishy deals. Most of them were never open for the public and just remained as gossips.

I guess they prefer that to stay like this in that close, isolated environment. Mentioned by OS fraud judge like Alla Shekhovtseva is a good example of how ill that system is. That bias and strategic judging / nominating them should be stopped! We all know that Adelina received lots of help to become Olympic Champion, anonymous judging in that time pulls wool over eyes of many naive people.

There should be more uproar and outcry than currently is in fact on that matter. But most casual viewers or even many expects are clueless or prefer to turn blind eye on that instead of being outspoken because they're afraid.

 

[Khoai]

Now likely being sent to judge WC because he/she can be trusted to make America great again.

Judges never felt ashamed even during 6.0. Now that we know their names and maybe even their faces, that doesn't change anything. The judging corridor is too big so they can judge extremely biased and patriotically yet they will get no consequences.

 

[andromache]

like the American judge who recently put Virtue and Moir behind the 3 American team at 4CCs should absolutely be called out on it. Now likely being sent to judge WC because he/she can be trusted to make America great again.

I think during TSL's dance analysis they kept making fun of this judge and her ridiculous marks. At least I'm assuming it's the same one.

There are some obvious "bad apples" like this judge who are absolutely bad and so obviously nationalistic, but, by dropping the highest/lowest scores and having a big enough panel, the hope is that the effects will be mitigated enough to not matter. And it generally seems to work - V/M won, after all.

Some judges do their best to do their job fairly, even if they don't always judge how we would. Different judges undoubtedly look for different things, prioritize different aspects - just as an example, on skating skills, one judge might pay more attention to speed and another judge might pay more attention to depth of edge, or in transitions, some judges might value quality over quantity, or vice versa. A good judge panel has enough different perspectives to represent a spectrum, from which we get averages that create the final score.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But why it should be so? It is detrimental and off-putting. I don't think it should be all that difficult to find / train new unaffiliated judges. There is need for new, younger, unprejudiced and bias - agenda free / uncorrupted judges - I am convinced that many were also around in 6.0 system and behind making fishy deals. Most of them were never open for the public and just remained as gossips.

The goal of the national skating federations is to bring home medals, not ensure that skaters from other countries are judged fairly. It doesn't matter if a judge is new or experienced. No federation is going to promote a judge who consistently under marks his countrymen. The highest score is dropped, so that's really the only practical way to discount the outlier so that the score doesn't impact the result.

 

[ice coverage]

... I don't think it should be all that difficult to find / train new unaffiliated judges. ...

Oh, really? Judges with absolutely no ties to any country?

Where would such judges come from? Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn?

But first Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn would have to become ISU members.

And if Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn become ISU members, then skaters from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn would have to be allowed to compete.

But wait ... oh, no ... then there would be the possibility of judges from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn being on the judging panels at comps where skaters from Mars, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn are competing ...