PCS per judge - Data Analysis AWG Mens FS

[Sugiady]

I see that the judges are strict with Misha, and all basically agree about where to place him in PCS. On it's own I think the scores are fair. But in comparison to generous scores given to other skaters, Misha was underscored in PCS.

I don't think this score is fair if we can have a look at the gaps between average scores and judge given scores？
It looks like a game theory practice on ice but not competition…

 

[synesthesia]

Thank you for compiling the data, Geek on Ice! Maybe some of it could be helpful for narcissa's project?

I think that finishing in the top ten a couple years ago at worlds is responsible for this. He no longer skates with as much insouciance... he just wants to do well and he is way less carefree and original than before.

... right now, I am afraid to say that I am not surprised with MIsha getting lower PCS than one would expect... He is missing so many things the others have : quads, speed, transitions, flow... and he no longer has what defined him so much : originality.... nutcracker IMHO was a bad choice...

He has been chronically injured and had to rely on a range of therapies as well as painkillers for quite a while. I totally cut him some slack for choosing a less demanding choreography and being tentative for not wanting to aggravate his physical condition. He is also completely aware he had to sacrifice some of his unique qualities as a result: https://www.instagram.com/p/BQdjPUkh6WH/

I like his Nutcracker FS very much, even if it's not "typical" Misha. Imo the step sequence is wonderfully highlighted by the slower, contrasting build-up to it. His speed and footwork might not be top-notch throughout, but he's making the most of his current physical abilities. He should (and was) at least be rewarded for having purposeful choreography/actually paying attention to and interpreting the music very well.

as soon as he will turn the page on his competitive career, he will shine again in shows and doing choreos for others. For instance, if I were a Grand Prix or big event host, I would totally hire him to do the final numbers of the gala... He is so good...

:agree:

 

[4everchan]

^^ has he been injured all year? I saw him so long ago? ACI was in late september.

 

[synesthesia]

^ He's had problems with his left ankle since last season, I think.

 

[4everchan]

^ He's had problems with his left ankle since last season, I think.

ouch... my foot has been hurting for a week and i want to punch the wall so badly and i am not a skater.... so that must be tough... poor misha

 

[Ice Dance]

Thanks for the analysis.

Country bias is obvious and happens so often that we can likely dismiss the argument that it's "a result of fair assessment/evaluation". Just look at the ice dance scores from any major competition- recently I believe there was a US judge who gave all three American dance teams higher PCS than Virtue and Moir.

And a Canadian judge that placed Chock & Bates below Virtue & Moir, Gilles & Poirier, Cappellini & Lanotte, and Stepanova & Bukin at Skate Canada during the FD, which Chock & Bates won.

It's eye-rolling in both cases. (And in plenty of other examples with judges from many countries throughout history. It happened with the tech mark under the ordinal system as well, not just the presentation mark). But this is why the high and low score are thrown out.

 

[Geek On Ice]

Country bias is obvious and happens so often that we can likely dismiss the argument that it's "a result of fair assessment/evaluation". --- Sometimes our own skaters just look better to us even if they really aren't.

Thanks, Daniel1998!
Country bias (that's the word I was looking for! Thanks!) does happen, right?! Okay, so I'm not imagining things, then! Phew. :roll9:

Yeah, I learnt to accept this country bias etc, and as you and I said it too, IF all countries do it, it cancels out... in theory. It depends on the extent though... Also I feel bad for those who doesn't have anyone at the judges panel. (Like Misha in this case.)

I do agree that our own skaters or favs look better, just because of our bias. Figure skating judging is so based on subjective factors anyway... so it's something that we can't avoid, I guess...

 

[Geek On Ice]

Would you be doing SP as well? --- Looking forward to the TES part!
(And yes, Mura was awesome :thumbsup: Was so happy for him/ to see him skate so well. )

Thank you, gladiolusc! I'm now so determined to do SP and a full analysis (including TES) :agree2:, because I just want to understand these scores, not all in negative ways though. (It may take a little time though... sorry!!)

I'm sooooo glad to hear that Mura's performance at AWG was well received! :luv17: YES, he is awesome!!

 

[Geek On Ice]

Can you make a table just using the SS values?

Thanks for your interest, icellist, but I actually want to do SP version of this or full analysis first... Is that okay? (Also for SS, you can sort of get idea by looking at scores, as you don't have to sum things up. )

From my own eyes just on skating skills, I see that Shoma Uno, Han Yan, and Takahito Mura (in no particular order) have the best edges and power behind their skating. --- I think the judges see that "oh they can do a difficult quad, let's give them a higher SS" which should not be the case.

I know!! I think SS scores are the one bothers me most! (Not only in this competision, but many times in the past.) I LOVE LOVE LOVE Boyang, but Mura below him in PCS...? Hmmm. I do understand that a skater needs good skating skills to do jumps, but 'skating' is much more than jumps, right? Besides, if that is the theory then, as I said earlier, Brendan did 4T and 4S & Mura did two 4Ts, that doesn't count because they are not 4F/4Lo/4Lz?


(BTW, I never fully understand why Kozuka was getting 7s in SS... You know?
THEY GOT TO STOP MAKING NUMBERS SIMILAR ACROSS 5 COMPONENTS!!
For example, why can't someone have SS 9.50 and have 6.00 in TR? That would be the true assessment, IMO.
Sorry this is getting off topic! But if we allow this, we won't see questionable SS scores anymore, maybe?)

 

[Geek On Ice]

I think the TES and GOE are worth analyzing more than PCS.

apple123, I'm planning to do that too, it may take a little time, but please check later on. Thanks!

Thank you for compiling the data, Geek on Ice! Maybe some of it could be helpful for narcissa's project?

Thank you, synesthesia! Yes, I had a quick look and it looks like a wonderful project!! :agree:
narcissa is way more knowledgeable in the technical field than I am, so I think that project will be so interesting!! Looking forward to seeing it!

 

[Geek On Ice]

Welcome baaaack! --- Mura was wonderful at AWG. It made me so happy to see him again on the ice. And it made me really regret that he's not on the Worlds team.

I missed you, Interspectator!! Yes, wasn't Mura fantastic?! It does make me super sad that he's not going to Worlds...:sad21:
Well, he still has Coupe de Printemps next week!

welcome back my dear

Thank you so much 4everchan! You are always so sweet... You are foever my 4everchan!! hehe. Cute new avatar!!

Geek on Ice, I love your number crunching and the conversations it inspires - welcome back!

Thank you so much, Tavi!! As much as I've been enjoying looking at posters' new avatars, it's always nice to see that familiar cute kitty cat sitting in your avatar! As I was thinking of 4everchan during 4CC, I was thinking of you too... I cried during Jason's skating... just so beautiful... I hope his leg will be 100% better and he'll be wonderful at Worlds!

Thx for doing that Geek on Ice. Welcome back...

Thanks, Arriba627!! You got new avatar too, right? Or has it been always that cute Shoma in FS costume? (Boy, feels like I was away for a long time...!!)
Maybe I should change it to New Mura avatar too!!

---

I'm so glad to be back here!! I can't tell you how much I missed GS...
I really missed you guys... I'm still a bit swamped, but I'll try my best to keep in touch here!! :luv17:
Thank you again, for all of your sweet welcome back messages!! It's like coming back home!

 

[Arriba627]

Thanks, Arriba627!! You got new avatar too, right? Or has it been always that cute Shoma in FS costume? (Boy, feels like I was away for a long time...!!)
Maybe I should change it to New Mura avatar

This is actually the first time I've ever had an avatar. I was so jealous of MaiKatze's cute Shoma avatar that I wanted one too! Next time I will probably use a photo. But for now, I like the cartoon one. I like your Mura one too! Hoping that Mura does well at Printemps! Thx again for your efforts on our behalf!

 

[apple123]

Thank you, gladiolusc! I'm now so determined to do SP and a full analysis (including TES) :agree2:, because I just want to understand these scores, not all in negative ways though. (It may take a little time though... sorry!!)

I'm sooooo glad to hear that Mura's performance at AWG was well received! :luv17: YES, he is awesome!!

Look forwards to your analysis. I think the TES and GOE will be very telling. Then we'll knows how Shoma win with those two disastrous skates.

 

[YesWay]

It must be hard work to generate these stats, thanks for doing it!

I'd be wary of drawing any conclusions using stats from just a single event, but if you can keep this going across many competitions, I think together they could become something very important. I'm very interested in any patterns that may be revealed by such stats. Because proper, systematically accumulated, "real" evidence regarding judging bias... is rather thin on the ground.

My only concern is, being sure that the correct conclusions are drawn from the stats. Is it reasonable to assume that only considering the top 6 skaters, is sufficient to establish the most important and relevant patterns of bias in judging? (Assuming they exist!)

Put it another way, are we sure all "relevant" factors being considered/included? I'm not a stats expert so I can't say what all the relevant factors actually are here. Does "top 6 only" skew the stats to some extent? Does it hide "wider" scoring patterns - such as how judges score "their" skaters when they are outside of the top 6... and their direct rivals who are also outside of the top 6... or how they score "other" skaters generally (Do they treat the medal contenders differently to other skaters? Are they more consistent/fair/harsh/generous to the others? Or not?)

Perhaps there are other "patterns" at play too? eg. regarding "friendly" or "neigbour" nations or regions?

Do "cultural" differences play a part in biases, where certain styles or aspects of skating or performance are valued more than others in different countries? (That would still be "bias", just a less "sinister" kind).

I guess even if all the important/relevant factors were identified, accounting for them might make it all too much hard work? Obviously it would be convenient if we do indeed only need to consider top 6 in order to draw some "meaningful" conclusions - but is this the case? I'd just like some reassurance?

 

[Tavi...]

Thx for doing that Geek on Ice. Welcome back...Tavi, thank you for being my 5,000th thumb.

Huh. If I recall, I was your 4,00th thumb too!

 

[Miller]

Has anyone noticed how 'no more anonymous judging' is becoming a little more 'anonymous'? For example the above event has the judges' countries in the protocols, but at the recent Europeans and 4CCs they all come from the same country, 'ISU'. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/SEG002OF.HTM http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/SEG002OF.HTM.

Perhaps the efforts of Geek on Ice (keep up the good work!) and Skating Protocol https://www.instagram.com/skatingprotocol/?hl=en are having their effect. Good. Does the ISU really think they can pull the wool over our eyes with this sort of stuff, Google searches can easily find out where the judges come from, and highlight scoring 'anomalies'.

Once again, keep up the good work.

 

[moriel]

Random thought - we probably should put all the analysis together in same place and have it always visible, to make sure more people see it.
Of course its not a big deal, but having extra publicity from fans may matter when it comes to olympic shady stuff.

 

[Arriba627]

Huh. If I recall, I was your 4,00th thumb too!

You're right! You were. And that was only since Jan. 17. What on earth have I been saying since Jan. 17?! I think it might be because I posted a bunch of Nats photos and comments.

 

[ice coverage]

Has anyone noticed how 'no more anonymous judging' is becoming a little more 'anonymous'? For example the above event has the judges' countries in the protocols, but at the recent Europeans and 4CCs they all come from the same country, 'ISU'. http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/SEG002OF.HTM http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/SEG002OF.HTM.

Perhaps the efforts of Geek on Ice (keep up the good work!) and Skating Protocol https://www.instagram.com/skatingprotocol/?hl=en are having their effect. ....

AFAIK, it is absolutely nothing new this season for ISU Championships to require judges to be at the higher "ISU judge" level -- as opposed to the lower "international judge" level.

For comparison:

Judges list for Euros 2016: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/ec2016/SEG002OF.HTM

Judges list for GPF 2015: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/SEG002OF.HTM​

This season's most recent list showing who is at the rank of "ISU judge" vs. "international judge":

http://static.isu.org/media/1093/2027-list-officials-fs-id-sys-2016-2017_updated-oct-6-rev.pdf​

The analogous listings for the 2015-16 season:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...ce/news/2015/10/update-isu-communication-1961​

 

[Miller]

AFAIK, it is absolutely nothing new this season for ISU Championships to require judges to be at the higher "ISU judge" level -- as opposed to the lower "international judge" level.

For comparison:

Judges list for Euros 2016: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/ec2016/SEG002OF.HTM

Judges list for GPF 2015: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/SEG002OF.HTM​

This season's most recent list showing who is at the rank of "ISU judge" vs. "international judge":

http://static.isu.org/media/1093/2027-list-officials-fs-id-sys-2016-2017_updated-oct-6-rev.pdf​

The analogous listings for the 2015-16 season:

http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pa...ce/news/2015/10/update-isu-communication-1961​

Wasn't no more anonymous judging introduced this season? http://www.insidethegames.biz/artic...em-in-figure-skating-to-increase-transparency Judges names were listed at 2016 Europeans, but in detailed protocols says 'in random order' http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/ec2016/ec2016_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf. However this year not http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/ec2017_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf. Could just be a 'cock up' of course, not updating how it should be, but of course they should have got it right, or at least said ISU and their country.