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2016-17 State of Russian Ladies skating
- Thread starter moriel
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- Mar 26, 2014
As some people mentioned it is unlikely to happen. Only 2 Russians are allowed in rythmic gymnastics to free up the third place on the podium. With 3 Russian figure skaters I am sure it will be hard for the third one to get the podium even if she deserves it especially big podiums especially repeteadly. Suppose, there are 4 of them. Like we have both Sotskova and Radionova this season in Helsinki. If all 4 perform cleanly chances of the Russian sweep will be very high but they will be high as well even when 1 of the 4 falters.
Of course, I personally would be glad if the system were free of the country factor so that all top skaters were allowed to perform in the worlds. Like top-10 from the Russian nationals competing against the rest of the world. Guess, it won't happen, though.
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I don't see the point of a fourth spot when the goal is to win medals, of which there are three. I think of Worlds/Olympics as your country's best against my country's best, not as another Russian nationals.
I would understand with olympics, country against country, but at worlds, I think it should be the 24 best from the whole world, regardless of their nationality. Yes, it is possible that there would be maybe 10 Russian ladies and then 14 ladies from all other countries together (slightly exaggerated), but then again, in ice dance we may see 7 US couples and 7 Canadians couples, and the rest ten would be couples from the remaining parts of the world. I wouldn't mind that. At least I would see the really best, not just the best from all countries including the best from some country where the best is actually worse than I can see at home at my rink. Europeans and 4CC should have the best from each country, but the worlds should be the real best , regardless their countries.
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In theory, that would be ideal. However, it would be very hard to select "top 24" in the world. I don't think season's best would be fair because scores vary so much from event to event. Furthermore, someone like Karen can be recognized for her achievements at our nationals event and get to go to Worlds, despite being well outside the top 24 season's best scores. Competitive placements could also be difficult, because you have women like Ashley who only participated in two international events this season. Among the top women, the selection to Worlds would be easy but when you get to the skaters ranked 20-30, making fair choices would be incredibly difficult because their scores and results are very similar.
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On top of that, Worlds results impact the Olympics, don't they? How would Olympic spots/skate order/etc. be determined in a fair way? Plus, that would be many Olympics skaters not being able to get important competitive experience prior to the Olympics. Worlds as an event seems important to building the global figure skating community in non-Olympic years.
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- Jan 17, 2014
Not true. In other disciplines athletes accumulate points through many World Cup competitions (skiing), or tournaments (tennis), and those accumulated points determine player rankings. And the competitions are not equal there either. Different weather or slope conditions (skiing), surfaces (tennis), etc, all those different factors affect the outcomes significantly. However, the points are added and statistically they create very fair rankings.
In FS there should be the same system. There are different meets here and there, depending on their levels they provide different number of points, the skaters are forced to travel and compete to accumulate the points, and consequently, to earn their spots for the main event, which is the World Championship.
For the Olympics we have a limit of three entries per country, but that's fine and not a problem at all. Max three top ranked athletes from each country are selected until the number of available Olympics spots are filled and that's it. We have a fair competition!
The skaters themselves should earn their spots. It should be entirely up to the skaters, not internal politics.
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I'm not sure about skiing, but tennis players count ~17 results in their ranking. Ashley skated twice internationally this season.
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Tennis players count every tournament they participated in the progressing year. Skiers count every race they run in the current season. If an athlete takes part in one or two events then obviously he/she is at disadvantage comparing to athletes competing in more. In your case Ashley would be in trouble getting her Worlds spot. Which is fine with me, as she would be forced to participate in more.
It's a technicality how the points would be distributed among events of different levels. In tennis, Grand Slams offer 2000 points for winners, while others 1000, 500 or 250. It's strictly technical how to implement this. The point is to provide the skaters ability to earn their own spots at World, thus being independent on any internal politics.
Again - if out of 38 ladies 20 are taken by Russians, 12 by Japanese, 2 American, 2 Canadians, leaving only two to others, I am perfectly fine with it. That's the actual skill distribution and it should be respected.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Forcing athletes to participate in more competitions might not result in the best performances. It works in some sports but not in others, and in figure skating it seems as though doing too many competitions can lead to serious burn out.. In particular, the amount of travel involved in skating internationally can be draining, and expensive.
I do agree it'd be nice to get rid of the internal politics involved in selecting who goes to Worlds, which can be unfair to individual skaters because of how their federation views them. At the same time, I think most feds will generally choose the skaters who have earned it the most - after all, it's in the federation's best interest to send whoever is most likely to be successful (which can really only be determined based on past competitions). And I also agree it would be desirable for skaters to "earn their spots" rather than relying on whoever happens to be skating at Worlds the year earlier to do it. For example, it'll really suck if, say, the US men only have two spots for next year, and Vincent Zhou winds up as the first alternate on that US team, because he didn't have a chance to earn his spot, if that makes sense.
I personally enjoy seeing lots of skaters at Worlds who I might not see otherwise. They get a chance to shine in a very important competition, and can have breakout performances. Limiting the number of entries from stronger countries allows these skaters to compete and place okay. I prefer this kind of system, but I understand that others do not. Agree to disagree.
Anyway, I feel it would be better to create a new topic to discuss this instead of clogging up the Russian ladies thread. I can't wait for Worlds. Especially for Maria. Even though Anna is my favorite, Maria has won her way into my heart this season.
Oh please! There are skaters who do ten competitions per season and yet they manage to deliver at all of them. It is Ashley's choice she didn't participate in more than two events. She did have opportunities but she chose not to, so if it made her disadvantaged, it would be her problem.Forcing athletes to participate in more competitions might not result in the best performances. It works in some sports but not in others, and in figure skating it seems as though doing too many competitions can lead to serious burn out.. In particular, the amount of travel involved in skating internationally can be draining, and expensive.
I do agree it'd be nice to get rid of the internal politics involved in selecting who goes to Worlds, which can be unfair to individual skaters because of how their federation views them. At the same time, I think most feds will generally choose the skaters who have earned it the most - after all, it's in the federation's best interest to send whoever is most likely to be successful (which can really only be determined based on past competitions). And I also agree it would be desirable for skaters to "earn their spots" rather than relying on whoever happens to be skating at Worlds the year earlier to do it. For example, it'll really suck if, say, the US men only have two spots for next year, and Vincent Zhou winds up as the first alternate on that US team, because he didn't have a chance to earn his spot, if that makes sense.
I personally enjoy seeing lots of skaters at Worlds who I might not see otherwise. They get a chance to shine in a very important competition, and can have breakout performances. Limiting the number of entries from stronger countries allows these skaters to compete and place okay. I prefer this kind of system, but I understand that others do not. Agree to disagree.
Anyway, I feel it would be better to create a new topic to discuss this instead of clogging up the Russian ladies thread. I can't wait for Worlds. Especially for Maria. Even though Anna is my favorite, Maria has won her way into my heart this season.
I also don't get the argument of "international experience" at Worlds necessary to prepare for Olympics.
Some of those girls can barely jump one triple in SP and are done for the competition with ~40 points.
They don't need exposition to judges, "learning" 3-3-3 from Medvedeva at practices or managing nerves.
What they need is more training and mastering advanced jumping content, they need money for more ice time, coaches and choreographers, not wasting it for travels around the globe to finish 25th+.
As it was mentioned many times, we've got Olympics for that.
Some of those girls can barely jump one triple in SP and are done for the competition with ~40 points.
They don't need exposition to judges, "learning" 3-3-3 from Medvedeva at practices or managing nerves.
What they need is more training and mastering advanced jumping content, they need money for more ice time, coaches and choreographers, not wasting it for travels around the globe to finish 25th+.
As it was mentioned many times, we've got Olympics for that.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I'm assuming you're referring to the one time this happened, Liza in 2014-15. She competed in 5 Senior B's, but they were all in Europe. It isn't practical for non-European skaters to partake in that many events in Europe.
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For some skaters, advancing to the free skate is its own major goal and reward. The world doesn't (and shouldn't) revolve around a few elites.
With greater access to more ice time, coaching, choreography, etc., comes greater competition to go to Worlds. It seems fair to me.
Again, this conversation would be better off in a new thread for those of us who actually want to discuss the Russian ladies.
No, I don't refer to Liza. The majority skaters have around 6-10 competitions per season. Doing two is only Ashley's choice. Out of curiosity, I looked it out for you: Medvedeva will have seven competitions this season, Zagitova nine competitions, Sotskova six competitions and if she is sent to worlds then seven, Pogorilaya eight competitions...and they don't take all place in Europe, and yet the ladies managed to deliver. Should I find more skaters for you?
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- Mar 23, 2014
Can you find skaters of Ashley's age who compete so often? Thanks.
ETA: I'm a little surprised over how heated you seem to be getting over how often Ashley competes versus others, as if choosing to compete less often is a bad or less worthy thing. Especially considering this discussion originated with a hypothetical competition system that will likely never be implemented because it's simply too impractical for skating.
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Overheated? I am just fed up with the excuses!
Leonova had eight competitions this season, Voronov six... would you like me to find you anything else, now when you started blaming Ashley's age? Like anyone who has any other Ashley's disadvantages, or perceived disadvantages? Like how many skaters compete while having flat feet, or teeth problems or coach over certain age, or any other things you can come with?
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Luckily, skaters do not need to compete X number of times in order to be good enough to get a Worlds spot. Requiring a certain number of competitions would be especially harmful to skaters recovering from injury. Many skaters would push themselves to compete when they shouldn't and only injure themselves further. Ashley doesn't need any excuses for not competing as much as other girls - she does what suits her best, other girls do what suits them best, and all are very talented and accomplished skaters. It isn't a bad thing.
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