Elvis Stojko: Looking back

[noskates]

I'm sort of glad to see people calling Urmanov out somewhat. At the time I thought his program was silly. He definitely wasn't the "most complete skater in the field" but like what happens SO many times at the Olympics a skater has the skate of his life and everything falls into place for him (think Tara Lipinski, Sarah Huges, Oksana Baiul). I keep thinking back to Kurt missing his double axel in the short - a jump he could do (and still does) without any effort. I wanted him to win the Gold sooooooooooooooooo badly. His LP is probably one of the best ever where music, athleticism and acting all came together. I do think overall he was a better skater on pretty much all levels than Elvis because that's the type of skating judges were looking for then. However, there was never a bitter rivalry between the two and I think each learned something from the other. I remember watching them at Worlds in Oakland, Ca when Elvis won and the two of them did the exhibition together. There was a cameraderie there and it was great fun to watch.

 

[TGee]

Even without the quad at the 1994 olympics Elvis was a worthy winner. But life isn't always fair. I just think forget the jumps but the skating - spins, footwork favored Elvis. But it really doesn't matter what I or the rest ofus think - it was that judging panel. Sort of in a different vein. It is kind of odd how the Canadian men get so close and then they fall just short - Orser twice, Browning always had disasatrous olypics well the last two, Elvis two silvers, Buttle bronze and Chan silver. All worthy gold medallists if they could have just had some luck or got it together on the big night.

Good point....

And this analysis about luck and taking risks [big risky jump], plays the other way for 1962 World Champion Donald Jackson. He took risks to get the bronze at the 1960 Olympics, and a bigger one to get the 1962 World Championship, landing the first ratified 3Lz.

But timing and financial considerations are a big issue for the once-in-4-year Olympics. Jackson retired right after winning Worlds in 1962, in order to go on the ice show circuit. Hanging in to 1964 for a second Olympics wasn't possible.

The timing worked out for Elvis to go to two Olympics, but the 6.0 system didn't ever seem to favour Canadian skaters. Toller Cranston and Karen Magnussen's challenges with that system really set off a deep critique that became loathing for 6.0 in the minds of Canadian fans....The public criticism of the judging system was very harsh. Have to wonder how that played out with the international judging community of the day....

 

[gmyers]

If only Elvis had done a quad... but didn't anyone miss Urmanov's quad? He was probably the first European skater to do quads regularly in 1991-92. in Albertville he planned to do both 4t and 4s but replaced his 4s with a 3s-2loop.

Because Urmanov wasn't as high profile as Stojko and made sure to mention his injuries. Then he would say he focused on choreography when injury preventing working on quads.

 

[GGFan]

I'm sort of glad to see people calling Urmanov out somewhat. At the time I thought his program was silly. He definitely wasn't the "most complete skater in the field" but like what happens SO many times at the Olympics a skater has the skate of his life and everything falls into place for him (think Tara Lipinski, Sarah Huges, Oksana Baiul). I keep thinking back to Kurt missing his double axel in the short - a jump he could do (and still does) without any effort. I wanted him to win the Gold sooooooooooooooooo badly. His LP is probably one of the best ever where music, athleticism and acting all came together. I do think overall he was a better skater on pretty much all levels than Elvis because that's the type of skating judges were looking for then. However, there was never a bitter rivalry between the two and I think each learned something from the other. I remember watching them at Worlds in Oakland, Ca when Elvis won and the two of them did the exhibition together. There was a cameraderie there and it was great fun to watch.

Why oh why did I go back and watch Kurt's program?? Talk about being under appreciated? If it was about collecting points he should have won hands down. Talk about edges, steps, transitions, performance, etc. I completely forgot that spread eagle into a triple sal/triple loop. That was a PROGRAM!

 

[mrrice]

Canadians, do you guys know what Elvis called the jump he does at 1:40 during his 2000/01 SP? It comes at the end of his diagonal footwork. It's kind of a double posse' but, his knees are together and his feet are apart. I was thinking it might be from martial arts training. It's such an unusual move that I would think he might have given it a name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tbhNOCxies

 

[Jaana]

I admired Stojko for his concentration at the events and for being such a consistent competitor. On the other hand I did not admire his skating style and his unfortunate body type did not help his look on the ice. But I agree that he found his own style that worked for him and I have often thought that Max Aaron should go for the same route.

In my opinion Urmanov definetely deserved his win in Lillehammer and the result was not even close. As far as I remember also the Canadian judge was for Urmanov....

 

[gkelly]

Canadians, do you guys know what Elvis called the jump he does at 1:40 during his 2000/01 SP? It comes at the end of his diagonal footwork. It's kind of double posse' but, his knees are together and his feet are apart. I was thinking it might be from martial arts training. It's such an unusual move that I would think he might have given it a name. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tbhNOCxies

In skating terms, it's a half-flip with a tuck position variation in the air. I don't know if Stojko had a special name for it.

As far as I remember also the Canadian judge was for Urmanov....

ROM RUS BLR JPN FRA DEN USA GBR CAN

Urmanov
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Stojko
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_skating_at_the_1994_Winter_Olympics#Men

I.e., Urmanov had a clear majority for 1st, whereas Stojko took 2nd in the freeskate with a majority of 3rd or better (several judges preferred Browning or Petrenko or Candeloro to Stojko). Based on the SP standings, he could have placed behind both Browning and Petrenko in the free and still have taken silver.

It might be fun do hold a mock judging exercise scoring these 2 performances, or the top 5 or 6, according to our own evaluations by IJS criteria. Of course it wouldn't prove anything about who "should" have won, but it would show where we agree and disagree on the skaters' relative strengths and weaknesses.

I'm sort of glad to see people calling Urmanov out somewhat. At the time I thought his program was silly. He definitely wasn't the "most complete skater in the field" but like what happens SO many times at the Olympics a skater has the skate of his life and everything falls into place for him

It was pretty much the skate of his life up to that point. I do think he had some better performances later in his career at Europeans or GP events, but never at Worlds and he didn't make it back to the Olympics.

 

[gkelly]

I was in the arena for the men's freeskate at 94 Olympics. It was my second time attending an elite skating event in person, so I was still getting a sense of what to look for. I think most of my note taking was about costumes and jumps.

My general impression was that it was a great night of skating with several strong performances that would have been worthy of first place. I wasn't sure of the results until they brought out the flags for the medal ceremony. I was just happy I remembered who Urmanov was from having seen him on TV at previous competitions.

I remember the gentleman in front of me commenting to his wife at the end that Petrenko had really put on a great show.

Probably Urmanov was one of the fastest across the ice that day. My vague memory of my live experience of that performance was of strength and energy and some perplexing posing sections (was he drinking something? answering a phone?). Later as I started attending more live events through the 1990s I got to see Stojko and Urmanov compete against each other two more times in person. Both times Urmanov was the faster skater, although those other occasions might have had less speed from both of them than at Lillehammer.

Stojko did land a 4T+3T in the warmup, so it was disappointing when he popped the axel at the beginning of the program and then wisely chose to replace the quad with 3A+3T, which he really needed. (IIRC he was the only guy to land that combination that day, but some of the others had other strengths he needed higher jump content to compete with. Of course his SP placement also kept him ahead of most of them anyway.)

 

[Ares]

I appreciate all of your responses and more are welcome

If only Elvis had done a quad... but didn't anyone miss Urmanov's quad? He was probably the first European skater to do quads regularly in 1991-92. in Albertville he planned to do both 4t and 4s but replaced his 4s with a 3s-2loop.

That combined with worse spins should have accounted for lower tech marks but it did not happen. Maybe wasn't meant to be in that time. Gold for Urmanov don't strike me as outrageous though and shouldn't all things considered (well he was ''clean'' after all).

 

[Ares]

I admired Stojko for his concentration at the events and for being such a consistent competitor. On the other hand I did not admire his skating style and his unfortunate body type did not help his look on the ice. But I agree that he found his own style that worked for him and I have often thought that Max Aaron should go for the same route.

In my opinion Urmanov definetely deserved his win in Lillehammer and the result was not even close. As far as I remember also the Canadian judge was for Urmanov....

Well his style was rough and he was not Candeloro in expression / programs but I don't think he was inferior than most of his fellow top competitors in his time.

 

[gkelly]

The timing worked out for Elvis to go to two Olympics,

The timing worked out for Elvis to medal at two Olympics. He competed at four.

 

[Abraxis12345]

After watching the programs from a post-IJS perspective, I now see why Stojko got hammered. The program had a lot of stops. The footwork didn't utilize much edge work. And, as gkelly pointed out, Stojko seemed slower than Urmanov.

 

[karne]

But I agree that he found his own style that worked for him and I have often thought that Max Aaron should go for the same route.

 

[TGee]

Because Urmanov wasn't as high profile as Stojko and made sure to mention his injuries. Then he would say he focused on choreography when injury preventing working on quads.

Surprized that you are saying that playing up his injuries was a factor in the judging.:think:

My sense of the ethos now, at least in Canada, is that it is very uncool to try to play up injuries. One comes to deliver one's best skate and get scored on what is put out on the day....So much so that skaters are often too hush hush about injuries until after an event.

But, I have no idea how what the norms are around this in other federations, or if they have changed over time. Wonder if moving from 6.0 to the IJS code of points has had an impact on the norms....

 

[gmyers]

Surprized that you are saying that playing up his injuries was a factor in the judging.:think:

My sense of the ethos now, at least in Canada, is that it is very uncool to try to play up injuries. One comes to deliver one's best skate and get scored on what is put out on the day....So much so that skaters are often too hush hush about injuries until after an event.

But, I have no idea how what the norms are around this in other federations, or if they have changed over time. Wonder if moving from 6.0 to the IJS code of points has had an impact on the norms....

They would say all the time that Urmanov ankle injury made him do more choreography training

 

[gkelly]

They would say all the time that Urmanov ankle injury made him do more choreography training

Who said that? During what era in his career?

Was this something Urmanov and Mishin were pushing? Or something they may have mentioned once but certain commentators kept repeating?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think it could have gone either way, but that Urmanov won the CAN judge's ordinal indicates that the decision wasn't controversial. Pops were considered a somewhat serious mistake too, not as bad as a fall but not completely overlooked either.

 

[andromache]

I remember one of Christine Brennan's books spends some time on Urmanov's struggles post-1994. It made me pretty sympathetic.

 

[gmyers]

Who said that? During what era in his career?

Was this something Urmanov and Mishin were pushing? Or something they may have mentioned once but certain commentators kept repeating?

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-02-20/sports/sp-25192_1_winter-olympic-champion

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I remember one of Christine Brennan's books spends some time on Urmanov's struggles post-1994. It made me pretty sympathetic.

It was also unfortunate that he was in a winning position after the SP at 1997 Worlds, got injured and couldn't compete for over a year. He was competing well that season and might have factored into the medals in Nagano had he avoided injury.