2016-17 State of Russian Ladies skating

[atsumiri]

Maybe it's time to stop? Please? :giveup::giveup::giveup:topic:

 

[Manitou]

Do you know what a comparison is?

A comparison would be saying that X is like Y in some way.

X is more interesting than Y is a judgement in contrast, or how two things are DIFFERENT, which is the opposite of a comparison.

Thank you for definition.
And I say again, and again, and again: replace the word "Russian" with "Japanese" in those discussed posts and imagine your own reaction. It should be simple for you. Please, do it.



P.S. (added comment):

Maybe it's time to stop? Please?

Sorry, I posted after your post, which was too late. But I agree with you.

 

[venx]

I like Marin. She is Japanese princess

Marin has been trained and choreographed (SP) by Russian very own Zueva, so we may call her "Marinochka". :agree:

 

[andromache]

Thank you for definition.
And I say again, and again, and again: replace the word "Russian" with "Japanese" in those discussed posts and imagine your own reaction. It should be simple for you. Please, do it.

My reaction:

Wow, it's not nice to say the Japanese ladies are boring. I like so many of them! Then again, watching a monkey skate around with a bowl on its head would be very interesting and funny! Okay, the sentiment behind the post is still overly negative, but it is better than saying that Japanese ladies are just like monkeys on ice, which would be far more mean and uncalled for.

Weird how it's pretty much identical to my reaction to the post with Russians in it. What reaction were you expecting?

 

[puremagic]

I am pretty different from a man with Down Syndrome, so it wouldn't surprise me if people found him speaking from his experiences to be much more interesting than me, because all I do is talk about figure skating.

If you were to say that talking to me is just like talking to a man with Down Syndrome, that would be a comparison, and that might not be nice. The post we are discussing, however, did not say that the Russian ladies are just like monkeys.

With such a flow I can interpret everything. But it not gives me a right to use it. It's about moral principles. Especially when I read this nonsense about 15-17 yo girls. Especially who WC and JWC champions.

 

[Ophelia]

Uhm, I'm thinking it's about time for another 'what does the balletic tradition in Russia look like' and 'what is the symbolic code of gestures from Russian dance and theatre traditions' discussion. [AlexD please do .....]

Or even a more general 'what is ballet' discussion. Pretty dancing or skating with good extension, elegance or grace is not the definition of 'balletic'.... [mrrice please weigh in...] Ballet can be very challenging aesthetically and not 'pretty'....

I can't comment at all on how the ballet tradition has been received and adapted in Japan, but atsumiri and lilahozi please do not try to redefine ballet to a narrow range of expression that is very remote from the richness of the Russian and Eastern European schools and tradition.....

No one is narrowing it down. There are basic foundations in ballet which transcend cultural and ethnic boundaries, which the dance is rooted in, and which all ballet (and other dance) schools teach. These fundamentals are heavily utilized in instruction of all dance forms. Given Russia's rich ballet history, I am surprised that many of the top Russian skaters do not demonstrate these balletic fundamentals, since I would expect their training to incorporate them. That is what I'm referring to. Nowhere did I mention "expression", whatever that means.

 

[puremagic]

Oh, and about boring programs. I said many times that for me Alina's FS is very boring. It's spin+stsq and jump-jump-jump. So what? Marin's programs for me are boring too. But they are both so cute So you just can't to not root for them :luv17:

 

[Ophelia]

Also agree that lilahozi's nasty generalization about the Russian ladies' programs is completely false and subjective, and certainly out of line in a thread dedicated to Russian ladies.

1) Show me the receipts. Prove it's a "generalization" (which does not equate to cherry-picking a few select examples that buck the trend), and that my statement is COMPLETELY false and subjective.
2) Why is it out of line? Is this a praise thread? Or is this a thread that's suppose to analyze the State of Russian Ladies' skating?

 

[puremagic]

Prove it's a "generalization"

Prove?

 

[andromache]

1) Show me the receipts. Prove it's a "generalization" (which does not equate to cherry-picking a few select examples that buck the trend), and that my statement is COMPLETELY false and subjective.
2) Why is it out of line? Is this a praise thread? Or is this a thread that's suppose to analyze the State of Russian Ladies' skating?

Every single one of the Russian ladies' programs is distasteful? Really? You want to maintain that as objective fact? For one thing, taste is mostly subjective.

We can analyze to death all we want. I don't think "All Japanese ladies programs are more tasteful than all Russian ladies programs" is very analytical, do you? It seems more deliberately inflammatory than anything else.

In terms of actual analysis, I'd love to analyze Marin Honda versus Anastasia Gubanova. Both seem to be universally loved and praised for poise, musicality, projection, etc. That would be a rivalry to rival Plushenko v. Yagudin and Mao v. Yuna because of the incredible talent on both sides. (Team Anastasia FTW).

 

[Manitou]

Oh, and about boring programs. I said many times that for me Alina's FS is very boring. It's spin+stsq and jump-jump-jump. So what? Marin's program for me are boring too. But they are both so cute So you just can't root for them :luv17:

I don't judge her programs as they are, but I am trying to put them in a larger context. Alina to me is a better, although unpolished and unfinished yet, version of Medvedeva. It's something that has a potential of going to even a larger dimension. That's why I don't see as it is now, even though I still love it, but what she may become the next year. I thought Medvedeva is beyond reach until I saw Alina. And they come from the same camp, from the same gym. They sweat together. And there are even more of them coming! I am amazed!
Does Eteri have some kind of a secret machine that is producing those beasts?

 

[Ophelia]

Every single one of the Russian ladies' programs is distasteful? Really? You want to maintain that as objective fact? For one thing, taste is mostly subjective.

We can analyze to death all we want. I don't think "All Japanese ladies programs are more tasteful than all Russian ladies programs" is very analytical, do you? It seems more deliberately inflammatory than anything else.

Where did I use the word "all" or "every. single. one" in my original statement?

Show me the receipts. Don't put words in my mouth and then throw out accusations of "deliberately inflammatory".

 

[andromache]

Junior Japanese programs may lookalike to you, but they're heck of a lot more tasteful than the Russian programs, which are all over the place.

This implies that you mean "all."

Why compare nationality to nationality at all when they are all so individual and different?

 

[puremagic]

Every single one of the Russian ladies' programs is distasteful? Really? You want to maintain that as objective fact? For one thing, taste is mostly subjective.

We can analyze to death all we want. I don't think "All Japanese ladies programs are more tasteful than all Russian ladies programs" is very analytical, do you? It seems more deliberately inflammatory than anything else.

Hey, andromache, peace? We just yet can't agree with two statements:

1) all jokes is subjetive and maybe someone who write it doesn't mean anything bad for its opinion, but for others it's really insult
2) I always hate provocators and trolls. When someone start to bashing my favs skaters - I have to defend. But don't judge me for my defend - judge those who started all this.

 

[Ophelia]

This implies that you mean "all."

Why compare nationality to nationality at all when they are all so individual and different?

No, that does not imply "all". That implies "on the whole".

Nation vs nation might vary on an individual level, but there are themes that exist on the overall level (e.g. Russian ladies being more mentally strong than American ladies). I've observed that ON THE WHOLE, Japanese ladies skaters exhibit attention to polish and refinement that I don't see the same level of in their Russian OR AMERICAN OR CANADIAN (so you don't accuse me being anti-Russian) counterparts. I only called out Russians before since this is a Russia-related thread and Russia has a stronger ballet tradition than the other 3 nations.

Personally, I find it intriguing to see what different skating elements each country/federation emphasize in their skaters, which reflects each federation's current skating "philosophy".

 

[atsumiri]

In terms of actual analysis, I'd love to analyze Marin Honda versus Anastasia Gubanova. Both seem to be universally loved and praised for poise, musicality, projection, etc. That would be a rivalry to rival Plushenko v. Yagudin and Mao v. Yuna because of the incredible talent on both sides. (Team Anastasia FTW).

I would love to see them skating one after another.... it would be amazing!
RJ vs RJ

 

[puremagic]

Does Eteri have some kind of a secret machine that is producing those beasts?

I'm sure she has

 

[atsumiri]

I don't judge her programs as they are, but I am trying to put them in a larger context. Alina to me is a better, although unpolished and unfinished yet, version of Medvedeva. It's something that has a potential of going to even a larger dimension. That's why I don't see as it is now, even though I still love it, but what she may become the next year. I thought Medvedeva is beyond reach until I saw Alina. And they come from the same camp, from the same gym. They sweat together. And there are even more of them coming! I am amazed!
Does Eteri have some kind of a secret machine that is producing those beasts?

She teaches them how to be mentally strong. They love to compete. They don't afraid of competitions... because they compete with each other every day at practice.
it's a little bit early to say but Trusova and Panenkova.. they look very consistent and mentally strong too.
IMHO of course

 

[TGee]

At least the other posters were bringing up some specific criticisms of specific skaters. "Japanese ladies all look the same and very boring" is a blanket insult.

And samkrut cited Marin Honda as an example, which is productive and worth discussing (though maybe not in a Russian ladies thread) and I do happen to agree with what samkrut said about Marin - she could use more interesting/creative programs to really highlight how special her skating is.

Just saying what you said, as if it's an objective fact, is just being inflammatory. (Though lilahozi was being slightly rude as well).



You brought this up the last time the topic of "being balletic" arose, but I never saw any specific examples regarding how the Russian ladies are being balletic as you define it.

Many of us have experience with at least viewing ballet, including great admiration for the Bolshoi ballet, which is by the far the most famous example of Russian ballet, and that influences ballet all over the entire world. Extension and attention to every little movement, from toes to fingertips, is central to ballet, whether it is aesthetically pleasing or not, it is aesthetically interesting.

Other balletic traditions exist in Russia, but classical is the most famous and it is inextricably linked with Russia specifically, because of the fame of the Bolshoi. There's nothing wrong with associating "balletic" with the Bolshoi and with Russia, since it's so famous.

Sure, we aren't all ballet scholars, but that doesn't make our associations with ballet and the Bolshoi and Russia completely stupid or ignorant. I'm a literary scholar, but I completely understand why people might see Robert Frost or Walt Whitman as completely representative of American poetry and might not know about the important influence of lesser-known American poets. Rather than informing them that they don't know what they're talking about, it might be helpful to point out specific poetic techniques from these lesser-known authors and show how they have influenced more recent works.

Examples would help immensely with what you're trying to communicate.

Agree that extension and attention to detail are inherent to ballet, but that doesn't mean that they equal ballet.

Bolshoi is one company, but in the post-Soviet era Kirov and Mariinsky also travel....and the schools that train their dancers have their own choreography books...But I wonder whether, when they travel the choice of what is performed is narrowed by what they they think the audience in North America or Western Europe would expect. So, I could see that even a ballet fan who gets out to see the Russian companies might not get the full range.

And funnily enough, when it came up previously, I noted that Russian ballet training methods seem to [for reasons I don't understand] get the best extension [and some of those with professional ballet backgrounds agreed]. So, when some folks come onto a Russian ladies thread and say they need more ballet like the Japanese ladies, I like many others found it to be a somewhat provocative "Wait! What?" moment. I'm with samkrut in thinking that the onus is a bit on the other side in this case.....

That said, there are as Alex D mentioned previously [with written examples] last time round many gestures and movements that inform many of the Russian theatre and ballet traditions. Sounds as though you are looking for visual examples...perhaps we can round a few up. But really want to stress that there is a good deal of practice and attention to detail given to replicating these standard gestures and expressions [which GS posters often refer to as mime.]

Certainly know that at the Russian method schools my kids attended, and that I once attended, photos and film/video of iconic poses and gestures are put up on the walls for students to emulate. The images I'm thinking of are from treasured books in Russian with photo plates or old films. I'm not finding many of them posted on the internet to share, but perhaps others know better where to find them.

Here's an example of a full body pose...https://secure.static.tumblr.com/fd.../tumblr_static_tumblr_static_filename_640.jpg

A shot of an expressive pose by Tsiskaridze http://files.dancemedia.com/dancemagazine/Tsiskaridze.jpg

russianballetvideos.com used to sell dvd etc. It looks as though they have an Instagram site with lots of great clips...you may wish to poke around... Here are a few more modern, edgy things posted there...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BPigIUtB1vC/?taken-by=russianballetvideos

https://www.instagram.com/p/7VuL7noqXU/?taken-by=russianballetvideos

https://www.instagram.com/p/6KwlqyoqQ7/?taken-by=russianballetvideos

https://www.instagram.com/p/50FqUnIqcf/?taken-by=russianballetvideos

https://www.instagram.com/p/3o0XCJoqW7/?taken-by=russianballetvideos

 

[andromache]

No, that does not imply "all". That implies "on the whole".

Nation vs nation might vary on an individual level, but there are themes that exist on the overall level. I've observed that ON THE WHOLE, Japanese ladies skaters exhibit attention to polish and refinement that I don't see the same level of in their Russian OR AMERICAN OR CANADIAN (so you don't throw out accusations of me being anti-Russian) counterparts. I only called out Russians before since this is a Russia-related thread and Russia has a stronger ballet tradition than the other 3 nations.

Personally, I find it intriguing to see what different skating elements each country/federation emphasize in their skaters, which reflects each federation's current skating "philosophy".

Honestly, they really come out about even to me. (And both are ahead of the US and Canada).

At the senior level....
Satoko has polish and refinement in spades, as does Mao. Wakaba has polish, but I don't see sophistication from her yet. Rika, Kanako, Mai? I would have to disagree on. I think there's a lot of hope for Mai though - she just really needs better programs to work on those things.

I think Evgenia is pretty darn polished. Not sure about refinement. I think that, like Wakaba, she's a little too young for sophistication and refinement, but it will come with time. Anna is a late bloomer - all the sophistication and refinement, and the polish is getting there. Liza, alas, I wish she was better in this regard. Meanwhile, Elena is the Russian Rika Hongo - my charming, bad-posture queens. Maria is one to watch. Out of all the Russian and Japanese ladies discussed so far, she has the second-most amount of grace and genuine lyricism (aside from Mao).

At the junior level, the only Japanese lady who wows me, from a performance perspective, is Marin. I adore Rika Kihira, but she needs a lot of work on polish and refinement. Meanwhile, the Russian juniors are, in some cases, already much better than the seniors are when THEY were juniors. I wish Alina didn't bend at the waist so darn much, but Gubanova, Tsurskaya, and Nugumanova are all gems!

I think Polina Tsurskaya has more in common as a performer with Marin Honda than with Alina Zagitova.