2016-17 State of Russian Ice Dance

[coldblueeyes]

Bestemianova is campaigning against bobrova/soloviev

http://spb.sovsport.ru/gazeta/article-item/967399

- Stepanova and Bukin were fifth at the European Championships. What do you expect from them in the "world"?
- I'm waiting for a good performance. I'm sure they are better than our first pair ( Bobrov / Soloviev .- Ed. ). Believe me, my opinion is not biased. But no one listens to me. At the European Championships, all efforts were thrown to make the first couple champions. Stepanova and Bukin were sold and pushed aside. They put forward an Israeli couple who had never won them before. As a result: Bobrova / Soloviev third, Stepanova / Bukin - the fifth, and all this mouse fuss did not bring anything good either one or the other.

- Apparently, this is done for good purposes - to tighten our leaders with an eye to the Olympics.
- It is impossible to pull those who do not pull! It was a shame. The refereeing brigade, which served the European Championship, must be unhooked from refereeing for many years. How can it be that at first the winner of a short program is announced one pair, and in two hours - another. This has never happened!

I think, at some point you have to realize that this kind of thing is doing more harm than good for S/B, but I don't know when that's going to happen. Not only B/S never lost to S/B, they are usually very quiet about their preparations and aspirations in competition, there's nothing of this whinning about losing, which is actually something that makes me appreciate them more.

Really, even with all the help to win Nationals S/B didn't manage to do that, and all the international judges have been sending them the clear message the entire quad.

Also, with that "my opinion is not biased" she didn't make a good case for herself, but eh.

 

[gmyers]

Thanks Bestemianova! Always makes me laugh.

I can't believe they are crying over Tobias/Tkachenko who only skates their second year this season. Tobias/Tkachenko was 12th last at Worlds (first year by the way) while Stepanova/Bukin was 11. Such a big gap, can you believe they close it? Bestemianova can't...

Stepanova/Bulin was very lucky in Europeans because Guignard/Fabbri who beats them consistently made big mistakes on free dance.Of course they only talk about Tobias/Tkachenko never beat them up. There was not enough time for that, but that is not important for great, amazing, smart russian coaches.

It's very terrible there's no talk of raising S/B levels. They had a mostly level 2 short dance but they really believe the level 2's came from a decision by the panel to keep them down and below b/s. The whole program believes levels are largely almost entirely fake.

I think, at some point you have to realize that this kind of thing is doing more harm than good for S/B, but I don't know when that's going to happen. Not only B/S never lost to S/B, they are usually very quiet about their preparations and aspirations in competition, there's nothing of this whinning about losing, which is actually something that makes me appreciate them more.

Really, even with all the help to win Nationals S/B didn't manage to do that, and all the international judges have been sending them the clear message the entire quad.

Also, with that "my opinion is not biased" she didn't make a good case for herself, but eh.

This attack on B/S is crazy! The issues for S/B have nothing to do with B/S. They had all the level 2 elements.

 

[bramweld]

If all S/B is hearing is that they are the best Russian ID team, better than C/L, B/S, blah, blah, blah, its easy to understand Ms. Stepanova's abundance of swag. I really can't wait for the interview with Besti, after worlds.:whack:.

 

[gmyers]

Russia 8th and 10th in SD. Barely in top 10. Hopefully they move to competent coaches who know about IJS and how to get levels.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I saw B/S very tired and faded today, probably one of their weakest SDs this season, which is a pity - probably one of the worst technically. S/B just did as well as they've been doing, I guess. They won over T/T, so they can be happy, but it still wasn't enough to win over B/S yet.

 

[elif]

Russia 8th and 10th in SD. Barely in top 10. Hopefully they move to competent coaches who know about IJS and how to get levels.

I cant name any coach who can help Bobrova and Stepanova. Russia is strange country. You cannot found another country who have this many competitive male dancers. But female dancers they have now are worst in their history. Cannot believe we criticized Navka before.

 

[uhh]

So, what should Russia be doing to become competitive again?

For me, there are two main problems: Firstly, they do not have people who can fully exploit the ins & outs of IJS, and they still blame technical weaknesses on judging politics rather than what the teams actually show on the ice. See Bestemianova blaming S/B's results at Euros on crooked judging rather than addressing the deficiencies in Stepanova's basics that make it very hard for her to hit footwork levels, Zhulin complaining about tech callers in his interview before Worlds, Soloviev whining today after the SD that the Russian Federation isn't pushing enough against the "power" of the French, US & Canadian Federations. When in fact, the Russian teams were the only ones in the top 10 not to get all the key points in the SD, and B/S were 5th in PCS, but only 9th in TES.

Secondly, the whole approach is way too insular. Packaging, choreography, music - all the choices are still dominated by people who have a mindset from the 1990s & early 2000s when it was a very different sport. Even when they've brought in choreographers like Peter Tchernyschev who has worked with US & Canadian teams to great acclaim, the material he produces gets watered down by fed officials until is indistinguishable from every other Russian program. Name a standout program from a Russian team in the last 3 years. For me, it's just I/Z's Carmen, although that is of course a classic skating warhorse. Beyond that...? I know some people loved B/S's Anna Karenina, but it didn't universally connect. None of the teams innovate, they aren't pushing the sport technically or artistically like the North Americans or the French are. The whole structure requires a radical overhaul.

 

[gmyers]

I cant name any coach who can help Bobrova and Stepanova. Russia is strange country. You cannot found another country who have this many competitive male dancers. But female dancers they have now are worst in their history. Cannot believe we criticized Navka before.

Either they find new partners or they work to improve, there must be remedial skating skill people

 

[gmyers]

So, what should Russia be doing to become competitive again?

For me, there are two main problems: Firstly, they do not have people who can fully exploit the ins & outs of IJS, and they still blame technical weaknesses on judging politics rather than what the teams actually show on the ice. See Bestemianova blaming S/B's results at Euros on crooked judging rather than addressing the deficiencies in Stepanova's basics that make it very hard for her to hit footwork levels, Zhulin complaining about tech callers in his interview before Worlds, Soloviev whining today after the SD that the Russian Federation isn't pushing enough against the "power" of the French, US & Canadian Federations. When in fact, the Russian teams were the only ones in the top 10 not to get all the key points in the SD, and B/S were 5th in PCS, but only 9th in TES.

Secondly, the whole approach is way too insular. Packaging, choreography, music - all the choices are still dominated by people who have a mindset from the 1990s & early 2000s when it was a very different sport. Even when they've brought in choreographers like Peter Tchernyschev who was worked with US & Canadian teams to great claim, the material he produces gets watered down by fed officials until is indistinguishable from every other Russian program. Name a standout program from a Russian team in the last 3 years. For me, it's just I/Z's Carmen, although that is of course a classic skating warhorse. Beyond that...? I know some people loved B/S's Anna Karenina, but it didn't universally connect. None of the teams innovate, they aren't pushing the sport technically or artistically like the North Americans or the French are. The whole structure requires a radical overhaul.

It's true. What's the pint of Tchernyschev when after Tarasova sees it she changes it to what she would have done in 1988

 

[gmyers]

This was a great post

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...an-Ice-Dance&p=1424040&viewfull=1#post1424040

From Ice Dance

First, I’d just like to say that this year’s Worlds dance results don’t depict the real story with Russian dance, and we all know it. If Bobrova & Soloviev had gone to Worlds, they would very likely have had the experience to lead this team; and it’s also plausible that Sinitsina & Katsalapov would have skated better without the pressure of being Russia’s unanticipated number one (I’m not saying that lack of pressure would have fixed the twizzles, though).

As for the future, generally speaking, you can’t just generalize. Each dance team is unique. Their strengths and weaknesses are different, and the path toward improvement is different. This is an answer politicians and reporters don’t like to hear because it doesn’t work as a soundbite or a headline, but it is the truth. Coaches and athletes need the kind of support and freedom that will allow them to find the right path for themselves.

As far as the big picture goes, here are some thoughts for a road map:

1. Build some depth. There seem to be tons of Russian junior teams, but how are they going to get the support and experience they need to break in as seniors in the international field? This is dance. It’s a long-term commitment. Most teams don’t just leap into the Grand Prix; and those that do can’t expect immediate results. These teams need time and exposure—the latter of which they are unlikely to get doing the Russian Cup series. Why is depth important? Why not just support the bright, shining stars that shoot straight to the top? Because then your entire program goes down the drain when the teams you've been counting on get 1. injured, 2. banned, 3. split up because they can't get along.

2. Get the lower-ranked senior Russian teams out on the Challenger series. Monko & Khaliavin and Yanovskaya & Mosgov are both out of the top 24 on the SB and World-ranking lists for GP selections this coming season. We all knew there was a good chance they weren't going to make the post season. There's no excuse for them not having any secondary events to help build up their world standing. Russia needs to be thinking long term. World standing results don't build overnight.

3. Don't undermine top athletes. Bobrova & Soloviev and Ilynikh & Zhiganshin were signed up for the same season opener this year. What the heck? Don’t subjugate a national champion team right off the bat. (The Russian Fed is far from the only federation to do this. USFSA did it last season. And Canada & their poorly-timed V&M announcement at 4CC's did W&P no favors this season). Then when it looked like B&S might lose to Hubbell & Donahue, Russian pundits were all ready to publicly criticize B&S and put their political backing behind S&K. . Just let the skaters do their job.

4. Send the top teams out to compete against the real competition and/or away from home. Russian teams aren't going to get real feedback and criticism skating at the Mordovian Ornament or in Eastern Europe. Try competing at the U.S. or Autumn Classic. (So what if you lose? You might not. And if you do, at least you’ll learn something. The judges this season demonstrated that they aren’t going to hold anyone’s season opener against a team down the road). The top three North American teams were all in Europe right off the bat this past fall. All three walked away with serious criticism and made dramatic changes to their programs before the GP. The Russian teams didn’t get international feedback until Skate Canada, Cup of China, and—in the case of Stepanova & Bukin’s FD—NHK. The next two Olympics are in Asia. Neutral territory at best. And Korea is definitely not pro-Russia. This isn’t like getting ready for Sochi. Go to the tough competitions.

5. Be open to outside expertise. This is starting to happen. S&K and I&Z are finally tapping into some of the Russian expertise in North America. As are some of the junior Russian dance teams. And let’s not limit teams to only Russian expertise. (Is Marina Zoueva really the best insight Julia could get for planning a 70’s rock & roll number?) There are many tremendous Russian coaches & choreographers, but that doesn’t mean they are the perfect fit for every Russian dance team. There is a whole world of expertise out there. Use it. Zhulin’s dramatic Russian choreography works beautifully for Bobrova & Soloviev. The current packaging is not working for Monko & Khaliavin or Stepanova & Bukin. They’re still finding their way. Perhaps their own coaches will find it, but it’s also possible that a new pair of eyes might provide some inspiration. Then have the coach adapt it and ensure it really works.

6. Treat the current World results like the learning experience they are. Stepanova & Bukin were thrilled with their free skate performance. The American/Canadian commentators were impressed with their performance. This was an away-game for this team and they came away stronger for the fight. They will be more confident and better recognized the next time they come to North America. Sinitsina & Katsalapov had a bit of a baptism by fire in their first Worlds experience together. They could have skated better, but they could have skated worse. They established themselves as a top ten team when last season they couldn't get onto the podium at nationals or even get the technical minimum score. Overall, it's been an incredibly successful season for them.

 

[elif]

So, what should Russia be doing to become competitive again?

For me, there are two main problems: Firstly, they do not have people who can fully exploit the ins & outs of IJS, and they still blame technical weaknesses on judging politics rather than what the teams actually show on the ice. See Bestemianova blaming S/B's results at Euros on crooked judging rather than addressing the deficiencies in Stepanova's basics that make it very hard for her to hit footwork levels, Zhulin complaining about tech callers in his interview before Worlds, Soloviev whining today after the SD that the Russian Federation isn't pushing enough against the "power" of the French, US & Canadian Federations. When in fact, the Russian teams were the only ones in the top 10 not to get all the key points in the SD, and B/S were 5th in PCS, but only 9th in TES

3rd place finishers today: Hubbell/Donohue lost short dance to all russsian teams in GP If I remember right.BS, IZ, Even SB in Finlandia too. They need to find reason why they cant do same rise thing. Ice dance is not same, even for recent years, 2010s, where If you begin season bad, no chance. Judges dont hold back anyone for bad season opening anymore. Never losing a team before doesnt mean you will never lost in future. We will see how SS and CB response HD's rise. Whining like russians?

 

[uhh]

3rd place finishers today: Hubbell/Donohue lost short dance to all russsian teams in GP If I remember right.BS, IZ, Even SB in Finlandia too. They need to find reason why they cant do same rise thing. Ice dance is not same, even for recent years, 2010s, where If you begin season bad, no chance. Never losing a team before doesnt mean you will never lost in future. We will see how SS and CB response HD's rise. Whining?

H/D modified their music cuts & choreo since the start of the season didn't they? I remember it wasn't well received at all at the start, but they clearly listened & acted on feedback. And kept driving at the technical side - NtMiSt4 for the first time this season at Worlds. But B/S got the same levels - 4 on twizzles & lift, 3 & 2 for everything else - as they have been all season.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I think the cases for B/S and S/B are different, and they should be approached differently.

First of all, Bobrova and Soloviev were not at the top of their game in the SD. They managed to get their levels before without a hitch, and they didn't look as sharp today, so where is the problem? Is it in training, is it age, something's catching up to them. They did have a very tumultuous start of the season, but it feels like their season was longer than it was for other teams. But, alas, there's nothing to be done about it now. And since I'm sure the next season is their last, they do have to work as hard as they can, because I could totally see them closer to the top in the SD, even on the podium, but not like this.

Now, S/B, there's no surprise they don't get their levels, either internationally or in Russia. Maybe it surprises Bestemianova, but not everyone else. They are young, yes, they have time to work. Maybe they don't need to move out of Russia, but they could connect to different coaches, get new experiences. With the way things are going , they will be the ones to carry the torch for the next cycle, but are they ready for that? It's a lot easier to compete catching up to the number one, and that has actually helped them in the past, like Euros 2015, but it's not going to be enough for ever.

Not all is lost, though. Next year there will be a strong junior team rising up, from a different school than both of the top 2 right now, and we'll have to see what happens to Russian ID. I'm not gonna say Pavel and Alla will win over everyone, but I do expect them to at least make a good splash on the scene, even if just to shake things up.

 

[coldblueeyes]

H/D modified their music cuts & choreo since the start of the season didn't they? I remember it wasn't well received at all at the start, but they clearly listened & acted on feedback. And kept driving at the technical side - NtMiSt4 for the first time this season at Worlds. But B/S got the same levels - 4 on twizzles & lift, 3 & 2 for everything else - as they have been all season.

Not true, they got all the keypoints before, and level 2 only once, if I'm not mistaken, and it was way back in SA.

 

[gmyers]

I think the cases for B/S and S/B are different, and they should be approached differently.

First of all, Bobrova and Soloviev were not at the top of their game in the SD. They managed to get their levels before without a hitch, and they didn't look as sharp today, so where is the problem? Is it in training, is it age, something's catching up to them. They did have a very tumultuous start of the season, but it feels like their season was longer than it was for other teams. But, alas, there's nothing to be done about it now. And since I'm sure the next season is their last, they do have to work as hard as they can, because I could totally see them closer to the top in the SD, even on the podium, but not like this.

Now, S/B, there's no surprise they don't get their levels, either internationally or in Russia. Maybe it surprises Bestemianova, but not everyone else. They are young, yes, they have time to work. Maybe they don't need to move out of Russia, but they could connect to different coaches, get new experiences. With the way things are going , they will be the ones to carry the torch for the next cycle, but are they ready for that? It's a lot easier to compete catching up to the number one, and that has actually helped them in the past, like Euros 2015, but it's not going to be enough for ever.

Not all is lost, though. Next year there will be a strong junior team rising up, from a different school than both of the top 2 right now, and we'll have to see what happens to Russian ID. I'm not gonna say Pavel and Alla will win over everyone, but I do expect them to at least make a good splash on the scene, even if just to shake things up.

S/b need to move out of Russia and Stepanova needa remedial skating skill lessons.

Unfortunately new senior teams get more federation attention and then collapse into nothing.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Unfortunately new senior teams get more federation attention and then collapse into nothing.

So let's hope they don't. These two have been really pushed this year - not gonna comment if unfairly or not - so they have to pay back with good performances.
In a way, I think the Fed actually have higher hopes for them than most seniors.

 

[elif]

I watched juniors, they are not promising. What Russian federation is doing?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Russia 8th and 10th in SD. Barely in top 10. Hopefully they move to competent coaches who know about IJS and how to get levels.

8th and 10th. Weren't you the one saying both Russian teams would be out of the top 10? :sarcasm:

Although you also said V/M would lose because they hadn't been to Worlds in 3 years. And they just got a personal best/new World record score.

Any more predictions?

 

[coldblueeyes]

I watched juniors, they are not promising. What Russian federation is doing?

Yeah, zero promise, I guess.

 

[gmyers]

So let's hope they don't. These two have been really pushed this year - not gonna comment if unfairly or not - so they have to pay back with good performances.
In a way, I think the Fed actually have higher hopes for them than most seniors.

If they move to North America I will have hope